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Employer restriction - legal?


Wild Bill

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The location is not a place of business that has been identified as a no-carry location spelled out in the law (nuclear plant, school, government building, correctional institution, etc).

 

Can an employer prohibit a CCL holder from having a firearm legally stored in their car, (not on their person), while parked on their property? (Their parking lot.)

 

As I read the law, it is their right to make it a no-carry location, but I don't see anything in the law that allows them to prohibit me from storing my firearm in my locked vehicle out of sight - then again, I'm not a lawyer.

 

Essentially I could get fired for doing it - but it's not against the law.

 

Thoughts?

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Essentially I could get fired for doing it - but it's not against the law.

 

 

 

This seems to be the case. You can't be prosecuted for storing in their parking lot, but they're welcome to fire you for it.

 

+1

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Um option #3? Don't let them know you have a firearm in your car?

 

It is an option, but not a very smart one if you value your job. What do you think would happen if someone ratted you out? You do know that an employer has the right, under certain circumstances, to have your vehicle searched if it's on his property, right? And no, it doesn't fall under the illegal search & seizure amendment.

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This is from the Illinois State Police FAQ page on FOID and CCL.

“DISCLAIMER: Answers provided to the following questions are meant only to give general guidance. The answers do not and are not meant to replace statutory language.
If you have a question regarding the Firearm Owner's Identification Card or the Firearm Concealed Carry Act that is not addressed in these sections, please call (217) 782-7980.”

“Can a business allow customers to carry concealed, yet prohibit employees from doing it?

This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt an employer's right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies.

Can a business prohibit a weapon from being secured inside a locked vehicle while the vehicle is parked in a business parking lot?

It does not appear that even a private property owner can do so given the parking lot safe haven provision.”

https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/Faq.aspx

 

As others have said: if you choose to do it, keep your mouth shut. When storing or retrieving the weapon you may want to be sure that you are not observed. Maybe even doing it a block or so from work. This may be a little paranoiac, but some coworkers can be busy bodies who love to tattle.

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It would probably impact your ability to get a new job as well since companies may be less likely to hire someone that got fired for keeping their gun in their car.

 

 

It would be wrong to terminate you. Labor law would generally side with you on a wrongful termination as state law specifically allows it. But it is uncharted territory because it is a gun as opposed to a tire iron or your heart medication. So try it only after retirement is available and desired and we will see.

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any chance of trying to speak with management and possibly getting their policy amended?

And let them know to watch out for you.

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It would probably impact your ability to get a new job as well since companies may be less likely to hire someone that got fired for keeping their gun in their car.

It would be wrong to terminate you. Labor law would generally side with you on a wrongful termination as state law specifically allows it. But it is uncharted territory because it is a gun as opposed to a tire iron or your heart medication. So try it only after retirement is available and desired and we will see.

 

Continuing Quiet Observer's line of thought, the ISP CCL FAQs also includes this question and answer:

 

 

Q: Can a state agency develop policies that say employees leave them at home or put the weapon in the trunk before coming onto the grounds? Or does the state agency have to accept employees putting the weapon in the trunk before entering the building?

 

A; This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers. That said, while the law does not specifically preempt an employer's right to have more restrictive employment policies, it is not clear that an employer can override the parking lot safe haven exemption created by the statute. This would be particularly true for a public employer.

 

 

 

Representatives Sullivan Costello and Phelps alluded to this during debate on the bill, but in a way that seemed unclear.

 

There might be more to the answer than I earlier considered, or at least no easy answer.

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It is not unheard of for armed police to be told that they should disarm or leave. A uniformed police chief was told to disarm or leave an IKEA not too long ago. A few years ago a manager at an ILLINOIS Denny`s told a group of cops waiting for lunch to disarm or leave. Depending on how anti-gun a particular business is they may be unwilling to chage it and instead may insist that cops disarm.
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any chance of trying to speak with management and possibly getting their policy amended?

 

Come on Molly, a positive response to that request will eliminate the need for 40 pages on this thread!!

 

 

updated my avatar to eliminate mistaken identity :cool:

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Speaking about this to management might draw unwanted attention. The best way may be to ask how they intend on enforcing it on off-duty cops that work there part time. Also asking how they plan to enforce it against non-employees.

IMO, the best way to handle it is to remain quiet. Not likely that an employer would start randomly searching employees cars. Employment is "At Will". They can fire you for anything.

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We had a "no guns and weapon at work" in our employee handbook. The look on the project managers face was kind of funny when he walked in our office before work hours and I was helping the job site superintendent install sites on his Glock. As an Ironworker, they can shove that employee handbook. We make them good money, they leave us alone. Most companies put that crap in their rules for insurance bs only. Keep it in your car and don't tell anybody. If they want to search your car, say ok, go to your car and leave. So they fire you for not letting them search your car. Not much to hold against you for your next employer.
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http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-employment-overview.aspx

 

Category/

 

Example(s)

 

 

1) Refusing to perform an act that state law prohibits.

 

Refusing an employer’s request to commit perjury at a trial.

 

 

2) Reporting a violation of the law.

 

Reporting an employer’s fraudulent accounting practices or use of child labor.

 

 

3) Engaging in acts that are in the public interest.

 

Joining the National Guard or performing jury duty.

 

 

4) Exercising a statutory right.

 

Filing a claim under the state workers’ compensation law.

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It is an option, but not a very smart one if you value your job. What do you think would happen if someone ratted you out? You do know that an employer has the right, under certain circumstances, to have your vehicle searched if it's on his property, right? And no, it doesn't fall under the illegal search & seizure amendment.

 

Please elaborate -- I find it difficult to believe that an employer could legally use force to search my car.

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It would probably impact your ability to get a new job as well since companies may be less likely to hire someone that got fired for keeping their gun in their car.

 

 

And since you'd be fired for violating a company policy you wouldn't be able to collect unemployment insurance while looking for a new job

 

Oh yes you would!

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It is an option, but not a very smart one if you value your job. What do you think would happen if someone ratted you out? You do know that an employer has the right, under certain circumstances, to have your vehicle searched if it's on his property, right? And no, it doesn't fall under the illegal search & seizure amendment.

 

Please elaborate -- I find it difficult to believe that an employer could legally use force to search my car.

 

 

The word force was never mentioned. The "under certain circumstances" in my original post refers to the employee giving his permission to have the vehicle searched.

 

Too many folks think that the 4th Amendment applies to non-governmental searches; it does not. Your employers property is private property. While an employer cannot forcibly search your vehicle, he does have the right to ask you if he can search it if he has reasonable cause to believe that you have something in your vehicle, the possession of which is prohibited on company property. If you refuse, he can fire you on the spot should he choose to do so. You're an at will employee and you can be fired for any reason at all provided that the reason is non-discriminatory.

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The word force was never mentioned. The "under certain circumstances" in my original post refers to the employee giving his permission to have the vehicle searched.

 

Too many folks think that the 4th Amendment applies to non-governmental searches; it does not. Your employers property is private property. While an employer cannot forcibly search your vehicle, he does have the right to ask you if he can search it if he has reasonable cause to believe that you have something in your vehicle, the possession of which is prohibited on company property. If you refuse, he can fire you on the spot should he choose to do so. You're an at will employee and you can be fired for any reason at all provided that the reason is non-discriminatory.

 

As a matter of principle I would never permit an employer to search my car. I doubt that terminating someone for refusing to allow their personal vehicle to be searched would hold up in court. But I'm not an attorney, so don't take anything I say as legal advice.

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The word force was never mentioned. The "under certain circumstances" in my original post refers to the employee giving his permission to have the vehicle searched.

 

Too many folks think that the 4th Amendment applies to non-governmental searches; it does not. Your employers property is private property. While an employer cannot forcibly search your vehicle, he does have the right to ask you if he can search it if he has reasonable cause to believe that you have something in your vehicle, the possession of which is prohibited on company property. If you refuse, he can fire you on the spot should he choose to do so. You're an at will employee and you can be fired for any reason at all provided that the reason is non-discriminatory.

 

As a matter of principle I would never permit an employer to search my car. I doubt that terminating someone for refusing to allow their personal vehicle to be searched would hold up in court. But I'm not an attorney, so don't take anything I say as legal advice.

 

 

Actually it does hold up in court. The company that I worked for, locted in Illinois, has a "no firearms on company property" policy. One of our employees was a resident of Indiana and held a valid CCL from Indiana. He always carried and made no secret of the fact that he had a pistol in his car at all times. Somehow, the HR Department found out and asked him if he had a firearm in his car. He refused to answer and was gone within 48 hours. He sued to get his job back and for back pay and lost.

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