barryware Posted May 1, 2015 at 08:16 PM Share Posted May 1, 2015 at 08:16 PM With all the hub-bub in the forum lately in regard to triggers, trigger weight, trigger pull, etc., I ordered some parts for my G17 gen 2. A double diamond connector and a set of competition springs. I don't carry this gun and I am bored so it will be fun to mess with. When I did the trigger work on my LC9, to actually test where it ended up, I used a milk jug and slowly added water until the hammer dropped, then weighed the jug & linkage. I did this a few times and averaged the weights. When I worked on my rifle, I borrowed a Lyman digital from a gun buddy.. Something wasn't right in regard to what is was reporting so I tested the scale and it was off.. Really off.. It was farther off at the heavier weights but off across the board. I ended up using the water jug. So.. Anyone have anything bad to say about a $20.00 Wheeler Trigger scale: http://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-309888-Trigger-Pull-Scale/dp/B004E4CZE2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430510768&sr=8-1&keywords=trigger+scale I'm a puttser, not a pro and I may never use it again but with the testing I'm going to do at different stages of the trigger work on the glock, the water jug will be a pita.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoRonin70 Posted May 1, 2015 at 08:29 PM Share Posted May 1, 2015 at 08:29 PM I'm surprised that you had a problem with the Lyman digital trigger pull gauge. I've used one of those for years and I test it with precision weights every month or so, and it is extremely accurate. However, if you want to get the most accurate and repeatable gauge, get a Correx Gram Force Gauge and attach a trigger-measuring hook to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJR Posted May 1, 2015 at 08:32 PM Share Posted May 1, 2015 at 08:32 PM I have one, but I have not tested it accuracy as the only thing I measure for is a before and after or consistency.Just like any tool, you need to do several measurements, toss the highest and lowest and average the rest. Just make sure you place it on the trigger the same way every time. (Up or down, even angle of the tool, will cause the reading to fluctuate on any tool.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 1, 2015 at 08:34 PM Author Share Posted May 1, 2015 at 08:34 PM I'm surprised that you had a problem with the Lyman digital trigger pull gauge. I've used one of those for years and I test it with precision weights every month or so, and it is extremely accurate. However, if you want to get the most accurate and repeatable gauge, get a Correx Gram Force Gauge and attach a trigger-measuring hook to it.I was suprised too. I dropped in a 4lb trigger on my rifle and it was reporting over 6lbs.. Water jug & linkage weighed 3 lbs, 14 oz.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 3, 2015 at 11:27 PM Author Share Posted May 3, 2015 at 11:27 PM Against my better judgment but I ordered the Lyman.. I will test it for accuracy upon arrival. Maybe the one I borrowed was abused or old and a POS. The reviews are just as good as anything else. It will arrive before my trigger parts arrive so it will give me plenty of time to test, polish, test again with stock parts on my G17 gen 2 to see if the 25 cent trigger job actually works.. Got my cordless dremel charging now.. Dremel will be doing the polishing of parts to a mirror finish.Yikes! I am very excited.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 5, 2015 at 05:49 PM Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 at 05:49 PM The Lyman trigger weight gauge showed up.. I played with it a bit. It is accurate.. I filled a milk jug about 1/2 ~ 3/4 full and weighed it on an electronic postal scale which I have verified its accuracy in the past, then weighed the same jug with the Lyman. Then I started playing with it in regard to the G17's trigger.. Right on the G17's container & barcode, it states a 5lb trigger. The problem with this gizmo as well as others like it, you must put the trigger bar in the EXACT same spot on the trigger every time. If I grab the trigger in the middle as you would with your finger, it reports close to seven lbs.. Actually, a little over. If I grab the trigger close to the tip (closest part to the trigger guard) it is about 5 lbs. I think it will be impossible to get a REAL, accurate trigger weight. Where do you engage the trigger? I took two small rubber bands.. Wrapped one around the trigger safety so it is alway dis-engaged, the other close to the tip of the trigger so the trigger bar will roll up to the same spot every time (close to the tip). This may result in consistent readings, but what is the real, actual trigger pull weight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoRonin70 Posted May 5, 2015 at 06:35 PM Share Posted May 5, 2015 at 06:35 PM The Lyman trigger weight gauge showed up.. I played with it a bit. It is accurate.. I filled a milk jug about 1/2 ~ 3/4 full and weighed it on an electronic postal scale which I have verified its accuracy in the past, then weighed the same jug with the Lyman. Then I started playing with it in regard to the G17's trigger.. Right on the G17's container & barcode, it states a 5lb trigger. The problem with this gizmo as well as others like it, you must put the trigger bar in the EXACT same spot on the trigger every time. If I grab the trigger in the middle as you would with your finger, it reports close to seven lbs.. Actually, a little over. If I grab the trigger close to the tip (closest part to the trigger guard) it is about 5 lbs. I think it will be impossible to get a REAL, accurate trigger weight. Where do you engage the trigger? I took two small rubber bands.. Wrapped one around the trigger safety so it is alway dis-engaged, the other close to the tip of the trigger so the trigger bar will roll up to the same spot every time (close to the tip). This may result in consistent readings, but what is the real, actual trigger pull weight? My fingerpad covers the trigger from the tip of it to about 3/4 of the way up the curve and just barely brushes the bottom of the inside of the triggerguard. However, the most force of my triggerfinger pull is on the bottom half of the trigger, really pretty close to the end of it. I use a Lyman and I do exactly like the guy in the video below does, positioning the roller about 1/3 of the way from the bottom of the trigger from the tip so that it depresses the trigger safety blade. That's the natural leverage point for that trigger shape. However, I also use a Siderlock trigger safety, so the trigger safety button gives me a perfect reference point; I just line the gauge up with the silver button and I get nearly perfect repeatability every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 5, 2015 at 07:05 PM Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 at 07:05 PM Thanks.. I've seen that video.. According to the documentation that came with the scale the guy in the video is not doing it correctly.. The documentation states you need to have the trigger bar on the same plane as the barrel. If you look, lets say that the barrel is pointing @ 3:00, he should be pulling in a 9:00 direction, but he is pulling @ about 7:00. Not sure if it makes a difference. I would have to test but I would imagine it would. Depending on where the scale is positioned it will change the geometry. The fulcrum position (trigger pin) changes in relation to the lever (scale position on the trigger and angle that you are pulling). A glock trigger pivots on a pin.. My 1911 trigger slides straight back so I would think no matter where you put the scale on the 1911 trigger (within reason), it won't change the reading. Either way.. It is fun to play with but I think I just wasted 60 bucks on this scale. It will be good for comparison but I don't think I will get an "actual" reading. I'm still waiting for one more part (extended slide release.. the do-dad that holds open the slide, not the slide stop), the other parts have arrived. I'll see about getting a consistent reading as is.. Then do the 25 cent trigger job and test, then install the new parts and test again.. It will be interesting but I am not as excited as I was about the whole thing. This G17 gen 2, when I got it it was unfired.. Since I've had it I don't think I have put even 200 rounds through it so it really is not broken in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoRonin70 Posted May 5, 2015 at 07:41 PM Share Posted May 5, 2015 at 07:41 PM Thanks.. I've seen that video.. According to the documentation that came with the scale the guy in the video is not doing it correctly.. The documentation states you need to have the trigger bar on the same plane as the barrel. If you look, lets say that the barrel is pointing @ 3:00, he should be pulling in a 9:00 direction, but he is pulling @ about 7:00. Not sure if it makes a difference. I would have to test but I would imagine it would. Depending on where the scale is positioned it will change the geometry. The fulcrum position (trigger pin) changes in relation to the lever (scale position on the trigger and angle that you are pulling). A glock trigger pivots on a pin.. My 1911 trigger slides straight back so I would think no matter where you put the scale on the 1911 trigger (within reason), it won't change the reading. Either way.. It is fun to play with but I think I just wasted 60 bucks on this scale. It will be good for comparison but I don't think I will get an "actual" reading. I'm still waiting for one more part (extended slide release.. the do-dad that holds open the slide, not the slide stop), the other parts have arrived. I'll see about getting a consistent reading as is.. Then do the 25 cent trigger job and test, then install the new parts and test again.. It will be interesting but I am not as excited as I was about the whole thing. This G17 gen 2, when I got it it was unfired.. Since I've had it I don't think I have put even 200 rounds through it so it really is not broken in. I think it's an artifact of the angle at which he's shooting the video; it looked like he was pulling to about 8 o'clock to me. That's actually the plane on which a Glock trigger breaks, and I do the same thing. It gives me an extremely accurate reading that is consistent with using hanging weights from my trigger. On both methods, my trigger with a 4.5-pound connector breaks at 4 lbs 5.5 ounces, which is the broken-in weight after about 7,000 live rounds and about 40,000 dry-fire drill trigger pulls, down from exactly 4 lbs 8 oz when it was new. I also use the same hanging weight system like in this video, although I have some extra very fine weights to get accurate to 1/10 of an ounce. By the way, notice the angle at which he's setting the Glocks to pull the trigger at. It's not a straight back pull. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxGXc3ZuJTY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 5, 2015 at 10:49 PM Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 at 10:49 PM I worked on my technique.. Instead of a rubber band, I put a bag tie on the trigger.. This lets me get it in the same spot all the time as well as keeps the trigger safety depressed. The secret... Pull slowly.. I'm sure most of you know this. It was a moment for me.. I pulled the trigger 10 times then asked for an average.. Then did it again.. Both times, 5 lbs. 5 oz. Now for the 25 cent trigger job.. I'll be back.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 5, 2015 at 11:46 PM Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 at 11:46 PM Yikes!.. The 25 cent trigger job works.. I used my dremel with a small buffing wheel & some polishing compound. Then cleaned everything up and just a drop of oil on the surface between the connector and the trigger bar. This time instead of doing two groups of 10 pulls (20 max), I just did 10 and hit the average button.. From 5lbs 5 oz to 4 lbs 3 oz.. Next, I will just replace the connector with the DD 3.5, test, then the springs & test again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 6, 2015 at 12:03 AM Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 at 12:03 AM 25 cent trigger job and 3.5 lb DD connector only.. 3lbs. 12 oz.. Springs next.. Then done.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 6, 2015 at 12:34 AM Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 at 12:34 AM Yikes!.. I think I'm done except for actually shooting it. 3 lbs. 2 oz. Recap: Stock, the gun (Glock 17, Gen 2): 5 lbs. 5 oz. (after I figured out how to use the scale (pull SLOWLY)). 25 cent trigger job: 4 lbs. 4 oz. Add a DD 3.5 lb. connector: 3 lbs. 11 oz. Add a set of competition springs: 3 lbs. 2 oz. Still waiting for an extended slide release to be delivered.. I was thinking about some decent sights but the gun has a lasermax guide rod laser. I'll shoot it to make sure there are no light primer hits, clean it and done.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoRonin70 Posted May 6, 2015 at 04:59 AM Share Posted May 6, 2015 at 04:59 AM Yikes!.. I think I'm done except for actually shooting it. 3 lbs. 2 oz. Recap: Stock, the gun (Glock 17, Gen 2): 5 lbs. 5 oz. (after I figured out how to use the scale (pull SLOWLY)). 25 cent trigger job: 4 lbs. 4 oz. Add a DD 3.5 lb. connector: 3 lbs. 11 oz. Add a set of competition springs: 3 lbs. 2 oz. Still waiting for an extended slide release to be delivered.. I was thinking about some decent sights but the gun has a lasermax guide rod laser. I'll shoot it to make sure there are no light primer hits, clean it and done.. Wow, that's a light trigger. Too light for me. I need a bit of resistance in mine. Under 4.5 pounds is plenty sensitive for me, especially for concealed carry. Even for a range gun, I'd want something around 4 pounds, to be honest. I guess I'm just used to shooting with robust triggers. If you're intent on making a super-shooter that's so accurate it exceeds your capabilities, look into the Meprolight Adjustable Night Sights. They are expensive, but they get you on target better than any sights I've ever seen on a semi-auto pistol. This is a 5-shot target of mine at 10 yards using a .40 KKM conversion barrel and 165 grain Ranger-Ts: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 6, 2015 at 01:10 PM Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 at 01:10 PM Wow, that's a light trigger. Too light for me. I need a bit of resistance in mine. Under 4.5 pounds is plenty sensitive for me, especially for concealed carry. Even for a range gun, I'd want something around 4 pounds, to be honest. I guess I'm just used to shooting with robust triggers. <snip>Yea.. Pretty light (too light). The spring set came with a total of three striker (firing pin) springs. I used the one that was in the same bag as the trigger spring and safety plunger spring. I assume that is the 2 lb. spring. The other firing pin springs were in their own bag marked. One marked 6 lbs., the other is marked 4 lbs.. I am told that the stock firing pin spring is 5 lbs. The extended slide release lever should be delivered today or tomorrow. When I install it I'll replace the 2 lb. firing pin spring with the 4 lb. If still under 3 lbs. 8 oz. I'll put the stock spring back in. It was fun.. I learned a few things about the inner working of a Glock. Take out the trigger scale and it was all done for under 40 bucks. I have over 100 in the trigger of my LC9 which is my EDC. The LC9 trigger work did lighten it up just a little bit.. Not much.. It is near 6 lbs. Stock it was a little over 6.5 lbs. What the work did do was improve the take up and stroke so the trigger breaks midway through travel instead of almost completely back as far as it could go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryware Posted May 10, 2015 at 02:05 PM Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 at 02:05 PM I replaced the competition striker spring with the stock spring. It brought the trigger up to 3 lbs. 14 oz. I believe that is about perfect for this gun and my finger. The trigger is smooth as silk. I think that has more to do with the polishing then any thing else. The extended slide release has not arrived yet but after that is installed, it is complete. Some of what I did to the gun is some bling.. Kinda like putting spinners on your Toyota.. Bling: Filled in the engraving on the slide. Replaced the stock slide back plate with one that has a biohazard (Zombie) logo. You do not want to be a Zombie on my block! Functional: 3.5 lb. Double Diamond connector. Competition Spring set (minus the striker spring to heavy up the trigger from 3 lbs.). Internal polishing. LaserMax Guide Rod laser. Truglow TFO night sights. Extended Slide Release (not here yet). Lots of love and much time spent staring at it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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