67vtx1800 Posted September 21, 2014 at 01:30 PM Posted September 21, 2014 at 01:30 PM How wide is the line between open carry and partially concealed? I am guessing we won't know until a court rules. An owb hostler with a bit of shirt tail covering the grip gets really close to open carry.
papa Posted September 21, 2014 at 04:43 PM Posted September 21, 2014 at 04:43 PM How wide is the line between open carry and partially concealed? I am guessing we won't know until a court rules. An owb hostler with a bit of shirt tail covering the grip gets really close to open carry. and would get you a free trip downtown with bracelets on. That is if you were trying to carry like that at all times.
67vtx1800 Posted September 21, 2014 at 10:11 PM Posted September 21, 2014 at 10:11 PM I suppose that's possible/probable. What would the charge be? To get to open carry, it's going to take some people getting popped for not concealing to the standard that is written in the concealed carry law.
kurt555gs Posted September 21, 2014 at 10:14 PM Author Posted September 21, 2014 at 10:14 PM What would the fine be for violating that part of the FCCL if in fact the holster itself doesn't "mostly conceal" the firearm. As much as I'd like the FCCA to say what I'd like to and really mean holstered open carry, the legislative intent doesn't support that. It in my opinion only supports a defense for accidental exposure. But you never know what a judge will do. Especially if the first case is down in Southern Illinois.
Packy Posted September 21, 2014 at 11:16 PM Posted September 21, 2014 at 11:16 PM Tango7. I trained in Topeka. I am now teaching in IL and KS. My website; www.LonePineFirearmsTraining.com
67vtx1800 Posted September 22, 2014 at 12:46 AM Posted September 22, 2014 at 12:46 AM What would the fine be for violating that part of the FCCL if in fact the holster itself doesn't "mostly conceal" the firearm. As much as I'd like the FCCA to say what I'd like to and really mean holstered open carry, the legislative intent doesn't support that. It in my opinion only supports a defense for accidental exposure. But you never know what a judge will do. Especially if the first case is down in Southern Illinois.I agree that there is legislative intent. However, there isn't any punishment defined in the fccl for not concealing to the level they intended. Interesting that they didn't spell out accidental exposure if that's what's intended. Partial has a meaning and it doesn't mean accidentally seen. Sure it's a bit of a stretch. Just thinking outloud that open carry might not be too big of a reach for those with a current license.
mauserme Posted September 22, 2014 at 03:39 AM Posted September 22, 2014 at 03:39 AM The FCCA is still a concealed carry law.While our understanding of "mostly concealed" may evolve over the next couple years, is isn't going to equal open carry unless the law is changed through the legislature or the courts.
chislinger Posted September 22, 2014 at 03:56 AM Posted September 22, 2014 at 03:56 AM One thing about open carry is unintentionally entering a GFZ. If it happens with CC you'll get away with it 99.9% of the time, but with OC there's a very good chance you get arrested.
tkroenlein Posted September 22, 2014 at 04:44 AM Posted September 22, 2014 at 04:44 AM What would the fine be for violating that part of the FCCL if in fact the holster itself doesn't "mostly conceal" the firearm.As much as I'd like the FCCA to say what I'd like to and really mean holstered open carry, the legislative intent doesn't support that. It in my opinion only supports a defense for accidental exposure.But you never know what a judge will do. Especially if the first case is down in Southern Illinois.I agree that there is legislative intent. However, there isn't any punishment defined in the fccl for not concealing to the level they intended. Interesting that they didn't spell out accidental exposure if that's what's intended. Partial has a meaning and it doesn't mean accidentally seen. Sure it's a bit of a stretch. Just thinking outloud that open carry might not be too big of a reach for those with a current license.Since the terms of the license are defined as "concealed or mostly concealed," the argument could be made that a person who is not carrying a loaded, ready to use handgun concealed, is not carrying as a licensee and thus would be subject to the criminal code. In this case that would be 720 ILCS 5/24-1.6, which would be a felony, plus any other statutes that would apply dependent upon location. This is one of those instances where I do not believe that the law and its ambiguities are on the side of the CCer.
rubicon Posted September 22, 2014 at 10:29 AM Posted September 22, 2014 at 10:29 AM I have just completed my Kansas Instructor training. Yes Kansas trains it's instructors on law and training expectations. Kansas has open carry because no law says it can't. Put another way it's a holdover from the wild west days. There is no law for or against open carry. One of the really neat things I learned is if a public building (government building also) wants to ban guns then they have to protect it's occupants. They are required to spend money on metal detectors guards etc. Most don't want to spend the money so allow CC. Even in the state capital building. Also instructors must follow the Kansas prescribed curriculum. It's an 8 hour class with shooting qualification. 25 rounds with one handed shooting at 3 yards. They also have a 25 question test that the student must pass with a score of 100%. If any questions are missed instructor talks about them and the test is retaken 'til 100% is achieved. Wish I could live there. My first Kansas class is next month in Kansas.ROCK CHALK JAYHAWK...Kansas is a great State and I wish I could live there too!
rubicon Posted September 22, 2014 at 10:39 AM Posted September 22, 2014 at 10:39 AM I have noticed that most of the anti open carry bunch is from Chicago. It's like they have Stockholm syndrome and need all kinds of complicated restrictions because they miss them somehow. And they get really worked up about it. I have to step back when I read these things. I actually feel kind of sorry for them.I have had many discussions about OC with these folks and it can be very interesting. They claim that the guy who is OCing will be the first guy shot, if a Bad Guy comes to do bad things...I ask, how many times has that happened? They say, the Bad Guy will take his gun and use it on him, I say...how many times has that happened? Where is the evidence to support these wild claims? I say...over 500 unarmed /non OCing residents in Chicago are Murdered in Chicago every year! How is that working for ya? You cannot come up with one case of an OCer that was a victim...yet I can counter with over 500 Murder Victims a year...of those who do not Bear Arms!
chislinger Posted September 22, 2014 at 12:55 PM Posted September 22, 2014 at 12:55 PM I have had many discussions about OC with these folks and it can be very interesting. They claim that the guy who is OCing will be the first guy shot, if a Bad Guy comes to do bad things...I ask, how many times has that happened? They say, the Bad Guy will take his gun and use it on him, I say...how many times has that happened? Where is the evidence to support these wild claims? I say...over 500 unarmed /non OCing residents in Chicago are Murdered in Chicago every year! How is that working for ya? You cannot come up with one case of an OCer that was a victim...yet I can counter with over 500 Murder Victims a year...of those who do not Bear Arms!Milwaukee man open carrying robbed of his gun Attempted robbery of gun of Michigan open carrier I had another example from Virginia but the link is dead.
mauserme Posted September 22, 2014 at 01:04 PM Posted September 22, 2014 at 01:04 PM Open and concealed carry are both compromises. Neither is a perfect solution for all circumstances.
BIGDEESUL Posted September 22, 2014 at 01:46 PM Posted September 22, 2014 at 01:46 PM Open carry is great for comfort, deterrence, and simply because it's a right. Open carrying instead of concealed just to show off a fat shiny revolver is not a very good reason. Not that a reason is required, but it seems like quite a few (not all) open carry advocates just want to show off, instead of doing so for comfort or an advantage. That's the only issue I have.
kurt555gs Posted September 22, 2014 at 01:59 PM Author Posted September 22, 2014 at 01:59 PM I think Rolex watches should be required to be covered up in public so as not to offend the poor. I would want to conceal if I was carrying a Glock, but if I were carrying Les Bear 1911? Well. Different story.
BIGDEESUL Posted September 22, 2014 at 02:17 PM Posted September 22, 2014 at 02:17 PM See, I feel the exact opposite. I'd open carry the glock, for an advantage, and leave the Les Baer for a bbq gun.
Elmer Fudd Posted September 22, 2014 at 02:37 PM Posted September 22, 2014 at 02:37 PM BigD...I think I found the perfect piece for the open carry show off crowd....how about a .454 Casul revolver with an integral grenade launcher. http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p725/Beecher_Tool/ScreenShot2014-09-22at93142AM_zps09fdbb6f.png
mauserme Posted September 22, 2014 at 02:39 PM Posted September 22, 2014 at 02:39 PM Open carry is great for comfort, deterrence, and simply because it's a right. Open carrying instead of concealed just to show off a fat shiny revolver is not a very good reason. Not that a reason is required, but it seems like quite a few (not all) open carry advocates just want to show off, instead of doing so for comfort or an advantage. That's the only issue I have. The problem with that logic is that it either is, or is not, part of the core right. If it is part of the core right then it cannot be meted out based on another's perception of correct vs incorrect motives.
BIGDEESUL Posted September 22, 2014 at 03:30 PM Posted September 22, 2014 at 03:30 PM Open carry is great for comfort, deterrence, and simply because it's a right. Open carrying instead of concealed just to show off a fat shiny revolver is not a very good reason. Not that a reason is required, but it seems like quite a few (not all) open carry advocates just want to show off, instead of doing so for comfort or an advantage. That's the only issue I have. The problem with that logic is that it either is, or is not, part of the core right. If it is part of the core right then it cannot be meted out based on another's perception of correct vs incorrect motives. Just my opinion. Never said It was part of the right, or had anything to do with it. Notice, I even said a reason isn't required and that it's a right in the post.
BIGDEESUL Posted September 22, 2014 at 03:32 PM Posted September 22, 2014 at 03:32 PM BigD...I think I found the perfect piece for the open carry show off crowd....how about a .454 Casul revolver with an integral grenade launcher. That gun, carried openly, could definitely compensate for any shortcomings, anywhere else in that persons life. Lmao They should have made it in 500, or 460 S&W.
rubicon Posted September 23, 2014 at 01:38 AM Posted September 23, 2014 at 01:38 AM I have had many discussions about OC with these folks and it can be very interesting. They claim that the guy who is OCing will be the first guy shot, if a Bad Guy comes to do bad things...I ask, how many times has that happened? They say, the Bad Guy will take his gun and use it on him, I say...how many times has that happened? Where is the evidence to support these wild claims? I say...over 500 unarmed /non OCing residents in Chicago are Murdered in Chicago every year! How is that working for ya? You cannot come up with one case of an OCer that was a victim...yet I can counter with over 500 Murder Victims a year...of those who do not Bear Arms!Milwaukee man open carrying robbed of his gun Attempted robbery of gun of Michigan open carrier I had another example from Virginia but the link is dead. Okay...we had 33 shot in Chicago this weekend, not a one of them was Open Carrying.
rubicon Posted September 23, 2014 at 02:26 AM Posted September 23, 2014 at 02:26 AM Has anyone really looked at the Wisconsin State Flag...it has a Farmer in a Cowboy hat, Open Carrying a handgun in a Holster. People by the thousands statewide, Open Carry and have done it since before Wisconsin was a state! I am not surprised that the Progressive Liberals in Illinois are afraid of Open Carry...they are the same people who fought long and hard to not allow Concealed Carry in Illinois. I see Open Carry as the definition of the Right to Bear Arms. "Bear Arms, not hide, conceal or stow out of sight. The premise goes back to the days of the Romans, when you could possess a Sword in a public place...as long as it was worn openly visible to all, not hidden away. I have nothing to hide, I wish to be Armed for self defense. All of the true American Icons were OC'ers...The Patriots, The Pioneers, the Cowboys, The Pony Express, The Indiana Rangers, Texas Rangers, and The 49ers. We have allowed the pencil pushing pansies to create a negative image of what used to be as common as going hunting. I for one will not be oppressed by the Anti's or the gun owners that subscribe to Bloomberg's doctrine of gun control. The Anti's have been successful in creating a divide among gun owners, those who truly support the Right to Bear Arms and those who wish to hide them in shame.
chislinger Posted September 23, 2014 at 03:45 AM Posted September 23, 2014 at 03:45 AM Has anyone really looked at the Wisconsin State Flag...it has a Farmer in a Cowboy hat, Open Carrying a handgun in a Holster.It's not a farmer, it's a miner carrying a pick and wearing a mining hat with a light on it. The other guy is a sailor carrying a rope.
kurt555gs Posted September 23, 2014 at 06:03 AM Author Posted September 23, 2014 at 06:03 AM Bravo Rubicon!
rubicon Posted September 23, 2014 at 10:33 AM Posted September 23, 2014 at 10:33 AM Has anyone really looked at the Wisconsin State Flag...it has a Farmer in a Cowboy hat, Open Carrying a handgun in a Holster.It's not a farmer, it's a miner carrying a pick and wearing a mining hat with a light on it. The other guy is a sailor carrying a roI stand corrected.
67vtx1800 Posted September 23, 2014 at 11:42 PM Posted September 23, 2014 at 11:42 PM Has anyone really looked at the Wisconsin State Flag...it has a Farmer in a Cowboy hat, Open Carrying a handgun in a Holster.It's not a farmer, it's a miner carrying a pick and wearing a mining hat with a light on it. The other guy is a sailor carrying a rope. The Village People are on the Wisconsin flag?
JTHunter Posted September 24, 2014 at 03:40 AM Posted September 24, 2014 at 03:40 AM I open carry holstered handguns where legal. I'm not interested in open carrying rifles in urban areas. No point in my opinion. To answer your question Mauser. I'm surprised Tim didn't comment on my preferred open carry rig since it does have a hammer strap. I want to be clear that I do not want to see any requirements for open carry and that it is a choice on how to bear arms.There may be little or no interest in urban areas but trying to make law around that would present some difficulties. I can envision a few solutions, with a stronger preference for one over the others. Like in IL, where OC is lawful as long as you are on unincorporated land...? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you are allowed to open carry even in town IF you are on your own property.
G214me Posted September 30, 2014 at 04:26 AM Posted September 30, 2014 at 04:26 AM Although I would never open carry I do want it to be 100% legal for the simple reason that carrying open or concealed should be my choice and not the states.
rubicon Posted September 30, 2014 at 09:26 AM Posted September 30, 2014 at 09:26 AM Although I would never open carry I do want it to be 100% legal for the simple reason that carrying open or concealed should be my choice and not the states.Please help me to understand why you would say...I would NEVER Open Carry? I do not wish to argue with you, I'm just curious.
rubicon Posted September 30, 2014 at 09:27 AM Posted September 30, 2014 at 09:27 AM Has anyone really looked at the Wisconsin State Flag...it has a Farmer in a Cowboy hat, Open Carrying a handgun in a Holster.It's not a farmer, it's a miner carrying a pick and wearing a mining hat with a light on it. The other guy is a sailor carrying a rope. The Village People are on the Wisconsin flag? Green Bay WON!
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