Who is standing in the way

[bobapunk]

Open Carry Texas is the group which has brought so many PR victories to the anti-gun crowd. They are the ones most responsible for Chipotle, Starbucks, Target, Sonic, Chilis, Panera, et all putting out "please leave your guns at home" statements.

 

And while I agree with their goal, their tactics have caused much more harm than good. When you don't compromise, unless you have an exceedingly strong position, you get squashed. And the damage they are doing is harming Conceal Carriers too!

 

You realize that none of those businesses you listed actually did anything to actually prohibit lawful carry in the establishments, right?

Of course MDA tried to spin it as a victory for them, they are, after all, nothing but a PR firm for Bloomberg. However, it is only a "victory" for their side if you allow it to be.

[bobapunk]

I have to agree with X-Wing. They can blame whoever they want, but they're the ones in the way of their professed goal. Sure, the NRA and TSRA could be soft - pedaling on open carry for a variety of reasons, but they aren't going out in public and turning the general public against the idea. They didn't create the only victory Shannon Watts can claim and make her a legitimate figure in the national debate, and they didn't provoke a major American city to bar open carry where it had always been legal before. Sending under educated goofballs out to point rifles around restaurants at low ready and harass chain - restaurant managers is a failed tactic.

 

You know what is funny? It only seems that people who don't even live in Texas are the only ones who feel OTC's rallies negatively impact public opinion...

[bobapunk]

If you haven't noticed, if MDA can not find legitimate photos and circumstances to make their point they manufacture their own. The chipolte gathering was with full approval of the management. The latest photo/caption campaign is obviously all manufactured ads.

 

Add to that the fact that OTC has stopped holding rallies IN businesses many months ago, yet, MDA continues to use old pictures (many over a year old) in their bully campaign...

[bobapunk]

 

Personally I would be open carrying if I lived in Texas right now. You can open carry "antiques" under current law. I would spend the money on an original Colt Peacemaker with black powder cartridges and that would be that.

 

 

And that was my understanding of current Texas law, and why I was so aggravated with the OCT folks. They did NOT need to make the point with longarms. They could have just gone out, bought a nice set of 1851 Navy cap-and-ball revolvers, put them in a nice leather holster, and made the exact same point in a much more effective way.

 

Then, the logic jump would have been, "Hey, these folks have been legally carrying revolvers for a couple of years. No accidental discharges, no revolvers have left the holster except in the interest of public good. So, since they already have open carry of a sort already, and nothing bad has happened, it makes sense to expand it."

 

Now, we're asking the legislature to go from, "Hey, these folks have been staging demonstrations running around with Scary Black Guns!!" to "They want us to trust them with open carry???"

 

And they're not even that expensive. According to Cabella's website, you can pick one up for $199 right now (and it's not like Cabella's is the least expensive gun store around). http://www.cabelas.com/product/Pietta-Model-Navy-Caliber-Revolver/705021.uts

 

So, no. I agree that open carry should be legal (in all 50 states), and should not require a permit. But saying that it is somehow the fault of the NRA that the NRA has been having to repair the PR damage that OCT has been doing is, in my opinion, disingenuous at best.

 

Brian

 

 

You are missing the fact that OCT carrying "scary black rifles" has done much to point out the failure of logic that exists in current TX law.

Of course, they can carry holstered antiques, and many do/have. Many also OC training replicas all day every day. Neither action drives the point home that their law is flawed since it allows "war weapons" to be carried but not simple pistols...

[mauserme]

I open carry holstered handguns where legal. I'm not interested in open carrying rifles in urban areas. No point in my opinion. To answer your question Mauser.

 

I'm surprised Tim didn't comment on my preferred open carry rig since it does have a hammer strap. I want to be clear that I do not want to see any requirements for open carry and that it is a choice on how to bear arms.

There may be little or no interest in urban areas but trying to make law around that would present some difficulties. I can envision a few solutions, with a stronger preference for one over the others.

[bobapunk]

 

 

Never having OCed before I cannot claim to be an expert. But I would assume I could cary my black gun in a black holster and 99% of folks would never even notice anyway. I would not be a fan of OC of long guns under any circumstance. If you do that, you are a complete (fool).

 

Ive said it before but OC would have made much more sence from a Law maker point of view. You meet the supreme court guide line while also ensuring compliance with singage.

Never having OCed...you do not understand the issue and it cannot be explained to you...anymore than Sex can be explained to a Virgin. You are against Open Carry of Long Arms under any circumstance..I think you must not hunt either! Were the early settlers of this Continent "(Fools)", Were the Patriots of 1776 "(Fools)", were the Pioneers of the West "(Fools)"...How about Cowboys. Sorry, but your lack of understanding of the term "Bear Arms" is beyond comprehension, you have allowed the oppressors to create false images in your mind as to what your Right to Bear Arms really means. Look at Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona... and many other states that understand what a Right is, especially the ONLY one to include the words "Shall NOT be infringed"!

 

No right is absolute, if that is the starting point of this then it is also the end. My point is that folks who OC long guns due so for only 1 reason, to get attention. It has zero tactical advantage. But yes I do hunt and I carry a long gun while hunting. But I DO NOT carry my SKS while getting a cup of coffee.

 

 

 

You realize that OCT open carry rallies include long guns in a effort to "get attention" and raise public awareness of TX's flawed carry laws. Good for you!

 

Did you actually think people just OC rifles around everyday?

[bobapunk]

 

 

 

Pretty sure our founders didn't have retension holsters when they drafted and ratified the constitution.

I'm also positive they meant exactly what they said in "the RIGHT of the PEOPLE to KEEP and BEAR ARMS shall NOT be INFRINGED.

I don't understand all the confusion, seems pretty straight forward to me

 

indeed not. And I would refuse your entry for Mexican carrying a handgun into my store for my customers safety. Your arguments crap they didn't have guns that a 4 year olds finger would set it off. With flashpans they weren't exactly condition 1 walking around.

If you think walking around with an IPSC rig isn't beyond retarded and store owners should have to let them in your ridiculous. Pre revolutionary war you'd have to set the hammer down before walking in somewhere and often clear the flash pan.

I think no one should be able to ban oc with a retention holster barring metal detectors and armed guards and with those lockers should be provided. Retention holster carrying should be a protected class.

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

Open Division IPSC holsters have actual locks that hold the pistol more securely than a Serpa (or similar)...

and you'd insist they be locked wouldn't you? At least in an elementary school

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

 

 

No not really. I think, logically, an Open Division Rig would be a poor choice for public carry, and I think that if someone were using one for such, it would be wise to engage the lock. However, I fall on the side of allowing people to use logic and not try to force choices on people through legislation.

[TimGiblin]

I open carry holstered handguns where legal. I'm not interested in open carrying rifles in urban areas. No point in my opinion. To answer your question Mauser.

 

I'm surprised Tim didn't comment on my preferred open carry rig since it does have a hammer strap. I want to be clear that I do not want to see any requirements for open carry and that it is a choice on how to bear arms.

its good. Walking into a elementary school I'd ask for you to put the hammer strap on. Not that I innately distrust you just I don't trust kids.

 

Now notice I don't say have to use retention all the time but the option should be there and a store asking you to apply it is IMO not out of line.

 

A store refusing you entry for OC is IMO out of line.

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

[bobapunk]

 

I open carry holstered handguns where legal. I'm not interested in open carrying rifles in urban areas. No point in my opinion. To answer your question Mauser.

 

I'm surprised Tim didn't comment on my preferred open carry rig since it does have a hammer strap. I want to be clear that I do not want to see any requirements for open carry and that it is a choice on how to bear arms.

There may be little or no interest in urban areas but trying to make law around that would present some difficulties. I can envision a few solutions, with a stronger preference for one over the others.

 

 

Like in IL, where OC is lawful as long as you are on unincorporated land...?

[TimGiblin]

 

 

 

Pretty sure our founders didn't have retension holsters when they drafted and ratified the constitution.

I'm also positive they meant exactly what they said in "the RIGHT of the PEOPLE to KEEP and BEAR ARMS shall NOT be INFRINGED.

I don't understand all the confusion, seems pretty straight forward to me

indeed not. And I would refuse your entry for Mexican carrying a handgun into my store for my customers safety. Your arguments crap they didn't have guns that a 4 year olds finger would set it off. With flashpans they weren't exactly condition 1 walking around.

If you think walking around with an IPSC rig isn't beyond retarded and store owners should have to let them in your ridiculous. Pre revolutionary war you'd have to set the hammer down before walking in somewhere and often clear the flash pan.

I think no one should be able to ban oc with a retention holster barring metal detectors and armed guards and with those lockers should be provided. Retention holster carrying should be a protected class.

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

 

 

Open Division IPSC holsters have actual locks that hold the pistol more securely than a Serpa (or similar)...

 

and you'd insist they be locked wouldn't you? At least in an elementary school

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

No not really. I think, logically, an Open Division Rig would be a poor choice for public carry, and I think that if someone were using one for such, it would be wise to engage the lock. However, I fall on the side of allowing people to use logic and not try to force choices on people through legislation.

I'm not saying you have to.

 

I'm saying a elementary school teacher should be able to insist on it personally.

 

The same teacher should not be able to refuse you picking up your kid with retention activated.

 

I think retention OC should be a protected class and OC should be legal.

 

 

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

[mauserme]

 

 

I open carry holstered handguns where legal. I'm not interested in open carrying rifles in urban areas. No point in my opinion. To answer your question Mauser.

 

I'm surprised Tim didn't comment on my preferred open carry rig since it does have a hammer strap. I want to be clear that I do not want to see any requirements for open carry and that it is a choice on how to bear arms.

There may be little or no interest in urban areas but trying to make law around that would present some difficulties. I can envision a few solutions, with a stronger preference for one over the others.

 

Like in IL, where OC is lawful as long as you are on unincorporated land...?

 

 

Likely to stir more controversy than that, but it isn't today's fight.

[Packy]

I have just completed my Kansas Instructor training. Yes Kansas trains it's instructors on law and training expectations. Kansas has open carry because no law says it can't. Put another way it's a holdover from the wild west days. There is no law for or against open carry. One of the really neat things I learned is if a public building (government building also) wants to ban guns then they have to protect it's occupants. They are required to spend money on metal detectors guards etc. Most don't want to spend the money so allow CC. Even in the state capital building. Also instructors must follow the Kansas prescribed curriculum. It's an 8 hour class with shooting qualification. 25 rounds with one handed shooting at 3 yards. They also have a 25 question test that the student must pass with a score of 100%. If any questions are missed instructor talks about them and the test is retaken 'til 100% is achieved. Wish I could live there. My first Kansas class is next month in Kansas.

[brianj - now in Kansas]

You are missing the fact that OCT carrying "scary black rifles" has done much to point out the failure of logic that exists in current TX law.

Of course, they can carry holstered antiques, and many do/have. Many also OC training replicas all day every day. Neither action drives the point home that their law is flawed since it allows "war weapons" to be carried but not simple pistols...

 

 

Yes, it has done so, and in so doing has handed not one but several propaganda victories to MDA. Yes, I know that OCT has since called off that style of protest. Yes, I know that all of the pictures being posted by MDA are over a year old.

 

It doesn't matter.

 

Naked selfies aren't the only kind of selfie that go onto the Internet and stay there forever. Regardless of how they have handled themselves since, MDA can repeatedly use those pictures to portray OCT and extremist, unsafe, unreasonable, and dangerous.

 

So, by using their "Scary Black Rifles" the way they did, they may have actually won something in Texas, but they're going to make life harder on the rest of us nationwide. There are still way too many people in this country that, even if they're not actual hoplophobes, they may be unfamiliar with firearms. They've lived in a city all their lives. All they've ever heard are people like McCarthy and Pfleiger screaming about evil guns. People that act the way OCT did in their pictures are NOT going to receive a positive response from the people mentioned above. Heck, I would have been twitchy watching a group like that walk in.

 

If people want to advocate for anything... Not just open carry, ANYTHING. Be it concealed carry, religion, prevention of quartering of soldiers in the house of a civilian without consent in a time of peace, whatever... they need to look like the ambassadors they're setting themselves out to be. Well dressed, respectful, well-groomed, clean-cut. Is it a legal requirement that they look that way? No. But just because they CAN act that way doesn't mean they should.

 

edited to correct typo.

[bobapunk]

 

You are missing the fact that OCT carrying "scary black rifles" has done much to point out the failure of logic that exists in current TX law.

Of course, they can carry holstered antiques, and many do/have. Many also OC training replicas all day every day. Neither action drives the point home that their law is flawed since it allows "war weapons" to be carried but not simple pistols...

 

 

Yes, it has done so, and in so doing has handed not one but several propaganda victories to MDA. Yes, I know that OCT has since called off that style of protest. Yes, I know that all of the pictures being posted by MDA are over a year old.

 

It doesn't matter.

 

Naked selfies aren't the only kid of selfie that go onto the Internet and stay there forever. Regardless of how they have handled themselves since, MDA can repeatedly use those pictures to portray OCT and extremist, unsafe, unreasonable, and dangerous.

 

So, by using their "Scary Black Rifles" the way they did, they may have actually won something in Texas, but they're going to make life harder on the rest of us nationwide. There are still way too many people in this country that, even if they're not actual hoplophobes, they may be unfamiliar with firearms. They've lived in a city all their lives. All they've ever heard are people like McCarthy and Pfleiger screaming about evil guns. People that act the way OCT did in their pictures are NOT going to receive a positive response from the people mentioned above. Heck, I would have been twitchy watching a group like that walk in.

 

If people want to advocate for anything... Not just open carry, ANYTHING. Be it concealed carry, religion, prevention of quartering of soldiers in the house of a civilian without consent in a time of peace, whatever... they need to look like the ambassadors they're setting themselves out to be. Well dressed, respectful, well-groomed, clean-cut. Is it a legal requirement that they look that way? No. But just because they CAN act that way doesn't mean they should.

 

 

That part, in bold, is what all of us, as firearm owners need to band together to fight. There are no pictures of OCT doing anything that is unsafe or dangerous. Do NOT let MDA convince people otherwise.

[BIGDEESUL]

After the 30 replies right in a row, this is now bobapunk's thread. Damn man. Trying to get your post count up?

[bobapunk]

After the 30 replies right in a row, this is now bobapunk's thread. Damn man. Trying to get your post count up?

 

Have you noticed that there is a limit to how many quotes you can reply to at one time?

 

Why does post count even matter...?

 

I think you posted your last comment here just to pad your post count. Since it contributed absolutely NOTHING to the discussion at hand...

[TimGiblin]

I get oct s point but a bunch of 60 year old men walking in with clay guns broken over their shoulders would have been more prudent

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

[Googe1227]

When I think about who is standing in the way of open carry in illinois the first person I think of is:

 

Illinois Speaker of the House Mike Madigan.

 

The second person I think of is:

 

Illinois Senate President John J. Cullerton.

 

Then probably in no particular order:

 

Lou Lang, Michael J. Zalewski, Eddie Acevedo, Kwame Raoul, Kelly Cassidy, Barbara Flynn Currie, Monique Davis, Scott Drury, Ken Dunkin, Sara Feigenholtz, Mary Flowers, Naomi Jakobsson (although she won't run again), Dan Kotowski, and Antonio Munoz.

You forgot Gov. Jellohead Count!

[kurt555gs]

And when other states pass open carry, it seems the naysayers just melt away because there really aren't any problems.

 

http://www.wapt.com/whos-accountable/despite-concerns-few-problems-arise-with-opencarry-gun-law/28066398

 

The only real complaint here was just some range instructor whining that he is losing fees.

[TimGiblin]

And when other states pass open carry, it seems the naysayers just melt away because there really aren't any problems.

 

http://www.wapt.com/whos-accountable/despite-concerns-few-problems-arise-with-opencarry-gun-law/28066398

 

The only real complaint here was just some range instructor whining that he is losing fees.

umm someone's never been to an OC lunch in Mi. Carrying in schools is still argued over.

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

[kurt555gs]

This was Mississippi that just recently had statewide unlicensed open carry restored.

[rubicon]

If ISIS or some other Terrorist Group ever mounts a serious multi city attack, in the USA...all of this opposition to Open Carry will be gone with the wind. Sometimes it takes a terrible incident to work as a reminder of why we have Arms...and to remember why our Founders gave us the Right to Bear them. I hope and pray that our LEO's can keep this from happening, but in today's world, anything could happen. Look at what happened to New Orleans after Katrina hit...

[kurt555gs]

I was just rereading this thread and realized some here have been adding their own assumptions to my statements. Earlier I was talking about situational awareness with open carry. I guess I should have elaborated that this includes when to open carry and when to conceal. I wouldn't think of open carrying on the corner of Madison & Pulaski in Chicago. I'd conceal. I would have no problem open carrying in downtown Pittsfield without any concern of someone messing with me or trying to take my gun. Going in and out of stores there wouldn't be a problem. Well, except the Shell station which was posted with a GFZ sign last time I was through and seemed odd to me. I think the Chicago types don't understand open carry or the wish to do it because it doesn't apply where they live. But, this is a big state, and in most of it, open carry would be fine and not cause any problems for anyone.

[rubicon]

I was just rereading this thread and realized some here have been adding their own assumptions to my statements. Earlier I was talking about situational awareness with open carry. I guess I should have elaborated that this includes when to open carry and when to conceal. I wouldn't think of open carrying on the corner of Madison & Pulaski in Chicago. I'd conceal. I would have no problem open carrying in downtown Pittsfield without any concern of someone messing with me or trying to take my gun. Going in and out of stores there wouldn't be a problem. Well, except the Shell station which was posted with a GFZ sign last time I was through and seemed odd to me. I think the Chicago types don't understand open carry or the wish to do it because it doesn't apply where they live. But, this is a big state, and in most of it, open carry would be fine and not cause any problems for anyone.

+1

[bcook619]

I was just rereading this thread and realized some here have been adding their own assumptions to my statements. Earlier I was talking about situational awareness with open carry. I guess I should have elaborated that this includes when to open carry and when to conceal. I wouldn't think of open carrying on the corner of Madison & Pulaski in Chicago. I'd conceal. I would have no problem open carrying in downtown Pittsfield without any concern of someone messing with me or trying to take my gun. Going in and out of stores there wouldn't be a problem. Well, except the Shell station which was posted with a GFZ sign last time I was through and seemed odd to me. I think the Chicago types don't understand open carry or the wish to do it because it doesn't apply where they live. But, this is a big state, and in most of it, open carry would be fine and not cause any problems for anyone.

+1

[Beezil]

kurt, quick question....

 

one of my favorite gun rights maps is the one i think we've all seen where it shows a legalization progression over the years (i think since the mid 80's) on Concealed carry...

 

Having no opposition to the OC movement, but not really paying much attention to it either, is OC gaining much legislative and judicial legalization or other "acceptance" like the conceal carry movement has? what does that map look like?

[kurt555gs]

Yes Beezil. Last year Mississippi went from no open carry to statewide unlicensed open carry. So did Arkansas ( A little squabbling in Little Rock over the definition of "journey" but they are now statewide unlicensed too). Oklahoma went from no open carry to licensed open carry where you have to have a concealed carry permit to do so. Just last week the override of Governor Nixon's Veto changed Missouri to open carry state wide. It's still a patchwork though not requiring any permit in rural areas but requiring a permit in cities that had prohibited open carry in the past like St Louis. The good news is the penalties have been reduced so the maximum punishment for open carry without a permit where one is required is $35.00 and the police cannot disarm you unless you are being placed under arrest.

 

So open carry is rapidly gaining ground all over this country. More so than concealed carry.

 

[Beezil]

Im not an oc guy, but i think pro oc laws benefit cc folks

 

Good to hear about missouri!

[rubicon]

Kurt, I think we are standing in the way, we are our own worst enemies. We being the gun owners of Illinois that have allowed the soft headed Liberals of the Anti-Gun community to influence our minds into thinking that Bearing Arms is not in the Constitution. We must have it wrong...The Right to hide, conceal and lock up firearms shall not be infringed(unless it is in the best interest of public safety).

[Tango7]

I have just completed my Kansas Instructor training.

Hey, fellow Sunflower shooter, where was your in-service at?