Who is standing in the way

[TimGiblin]

TimGiblin, would you personally open carry? I see you are concerned about someone taking your gun if you did. I would suggest that if it's a concern of yours, by all means wear a retention holster. It's not a concern of mine in the slightest. Someone taking my gun isn't even on the radar and I open carry wherever it's legal. Also I generally open carry a big bore revolver in a Simply Rugged Cattleman's holster. Not something tactical. If that is as concern of yours then it's should be your choice to address it. But I have no wish to see any regulation on how to open carry.

I've open carried for years.

 

The guns falling out of fobus/uncle mikes holsters are kind of frequent in Michigan where I went to college. At 18 I could not cc so I open carried and during the summer frequently did as well even after 21 just easier to dress around.

 

Maybe retention holsters aren't the right answer universally which I didn't say it was. But if you OC through a highschool its an issue. If the trigger is not protected in the hall of an elementary school it needs to be protected again.

 

So I'm saying something solid protecting the trigger is necessary. I don't know another way to state that aside from retention. I have no issues with western rigs they aren't floppy crap either.

 

I do have a problem OC Mexican style I view it as public endangerment. The crap soft foam uncle mikes when they sit it falls out I have an issue with that.

 

So maybe the answer is lose your gun doing an activity get charged with public endangerment? Maybe repair and report tickets?

 

I'm much more worried about little kids than a malicious grab. I've had a 5 year old try to grab it before. I prefer the leather bianchi Carr y lok with a 1911 when I OC.

 

You have a point I don't feel uncomfortable carrying in my raven phantoms either but again very stable.

 

All said at least for a retention holster oc should not be deniable anywhere schools nurseries libraries and so on.

 

In detroit the only grab was a fox airsoft ACU craptastic holster guy walking by another person at gas station. Identified weak and stupid carry went back grabbed gun and killed him.

 

You can't make a law saying "good" holster can you? Its not that pricey safariland GLS is $36

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

[kurt555gs]

All this goes back to accepting personal responsibility if you carry.

 

[TimGiblin]

All this goes back to accepting personal responsibility if you carry.

but I'll tell you to pull your zipper up too.

 

Its not personal responsibility. Its taking responsibility for other people touching/grabbing you. So IMO its much more involved.

 

Maybe a 5 minute video explaining how to keep kids away from the trigger. Post it on isps site and say if you mess up were giving you a repair report ticket if a round goes off a big ticket. A now you know informative state created video.

 

Cause peoples ability to be responsible is absolutely constrained by knowledge. A expected level of behavior is needed. The flip case with a backwards db9 sticking out at 430 is just scary and your right a blatant failure of personal responsibility.

 

I still say Mexican carry is public endangerment

 

The video should be a highschool graduation requirement.

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

[rubicon]

TimGiblin, would you personally open carry? I see you are concerned about someone taking your gun if you did. I would suggest that if it's a concern of yours, by all means wear a retention holster. It's not a concern of mine in the slightest. Someone taking my gun isn't even on the radar and I open carry wherever it's legal. Also I generally open carry a big bore revolver in a Simply Rugged Cattleman's holster. Not something tactical. If that is as concern of yours then it's should be your choice to address it. But I have no wish to see any regulation on how to open carry.

Kurt, you know I fully support Open Carry and go to Wisconsin...just to exercise the freedom. I have found that people who have never Open Carried have as much trouble understanding why it is truly the definition of our Second Amendment Right as... a Virgin trying to understand Sex.

[GT1]

The reason we are now fighting to recapture and retain our rights as outlined in the bill of rights is because at some point we allowed opinion to turn a right into a privelage.

 

Yep, just like some idiot saying you can OC, but only if you use the holster they tell you to use. All these ordinances started with similar idiots and their ideas like that, and our RTC was slowly eroded away and corrupted. That is exactly how we got to that tragic point.

[bcook619]

Never having OCed before I cannot claim to be an expert. But I would assume I could cary my black gun in a black holster and 99% of folks would never even notice anyway. I would not be a fan of OC of long guns under any circumstance. If you do that, you are a complete (fool).

 

Ive said it before but OC would have made much more sence from a Law maker point of view. You meet the supreme court guide line while also ensuring compliance with singage.

[rubicon]

Never having OCed before I cannot claim to be an expert. But I would assume I could cary my black gun in a black holster and 99% of folks would never even notice anyway. I would not be a fan of OC of long guns under any circumstance. If you do that, you are a complete (fool).

 

Ive said it before but OC would have made much more sence from a Law maker point of view. You meet the supreme court guide line while also ensuring compliance with singage.

Never having OCed...you do not understand the issue and it cannot be explained to you...anymore than Sex can be explained to a Virgin. You are against Open Carry of Long Arms under any circumstance..I think you must not hunt either! Were the early settlers of this Continent "(Fools)", Were the Patriots of 1776 "(Fools)", were the Pioneers of the West "(Fools)"...How about Cowboys. Sorry, but your lack of understanding of the term "Bear Arms" is beyond comprehension, you have allowed the oppressors to create false images in your mind as to what your Right to Bear Arms really means. Look at Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona... and many other states that understand what a Right is, especially the ONLY one to include the words "Shall NOT be infringed"!

[kurt555gs]

I have noticed that most of the anti open carry bunch is from Chicago. It's like they have Stockholm syndrome and need all kinds of complicated restrictions because they miss them somehow. And they get really worked up about it. I have to step back when I read these things. I actually feel kind of sorry for them.

[BIGDEESUL]

I have good situational awareness.

 

I just wouldn't let someone take my gun.

It's great to be confident, but there's always someone stronger and faster. It's nice to think that you wouldn't let it happen, and that you'd be able to handle the situation, but talking tough and reality are two different things.

 

Carry on brother!

[G29SF]

Open carry antis are no different than full-on antis: They object to people exercising their right in ways they don't like or are uncomfortable with. Truly hypocritical.

 

It is like supporting freedom of speech as long as the speech is in agreement with you... censor all other speech.

[kurt555gs]

The issue is so rare that it really doesn't bear discussion. Like wearing a titanium sampan to avoid begin hit by a meteor. Waste of electrons to discuss it. - Big....

 

And the larger issue. It's my gun. My decision. My risk.

 

[BIGDEESUL]

 

 

I have noticed that most of the anti open carry bunch is from Chicago. It's like they have Stockholm syndrome and need all kinds of complicated restrictions because they miss them somehow. And they get really worked up about it. I have to step back when I read these things. I actually feel kind of sorry for them.

The thing is, most of us that are from Chicago have seen the worst of society, and how the other half acts. Open carry is great. I fully support any method of carry that you prefer Kurt. But the reality is if you're walking down the street with your (redacted) compensator revolver, and a group of bangers, or just a clique see you, they're going to mess with you, and they're going to take your gun. Plain and simple. "Look at this old (redacted) thinkin he bad. We gone take his (redacted)" is exactly how it goes. And judging by your mentality and pics, you're not fast or strong enough to stop it. This is all my opinion, but based on experience dealing with some sheisty people. (I wasn't always the upstanding pillar of the community I am now.)Just be alert Kurt. I'm sure your situational awareness is top notch, but the fact that you want to show off your big bore revolver may get you killed in the wrong area. Please don't take this the wrong way. I just want to see all of my carrying brothers be safe.

[Xwing]

Open Carry Texas is the group which has brought so many PR victories to the anti-gun crowd. They are the ones most responsible for Chipotle, Starbucks, Target, Sonic, Chilis, Panera, et all putting out "please leave your guns at home" statements.

 

And while I agree with their goal, their tactics have caused much more harm than good. When you don't compromise, unless you have an exceedingly strong position, you get squashed. And the damage they are doing is harming Conceal Carriers too!

[kurt555gs]

OCT has been asking for help from the NRA and TSRA and it has fallen on deaf ears. So they took the path they did. I'm sure they realize the cost. But they had NOTHING to lose. NOTHING. I think now they will get open carry in Texas. I think the NRA and TSRA will be forced to help. It's possible OCT may be forced to compromise on licensed open carry out of revenge from the NRA and TSRA though. I hope not. That would just be pure meanness on the part of the big 2A groups and I'd like to think they are above such pettiness. What other choice did OCT have? I hope we don't have to follow a similar path in Illinois. I hope we have all learned by watching OCT. And since concealed carry isn't as firmly established and still more tenuous in Illinois, it may actually be easier to get open carry done here and with less damage to 2A rights in general than it was/will be in Texas.

[Pipedoc]

Open Carry Texas is the group which has brought so many PR victories to the anti-gun crowd. They are the ones most responsible for Chipotle, Starbucks, Target, Sonic, Chilis, Panera, et all putting out "please leave your guns at home" statements.

 

And while I agree with their goal, their tactics have caused much more harm than good. When you don't compromise, unless you have an exceedingly strong position, you get squashed. And the damage they are doing is harming Conceal Carriers too!

Sometimes it's darkest before the dawn.

[kurt555gs]

I don't think it's nearly as dark as many here Pipdoc. I'm actually cautiously optimistic. Not right now, but on the distant horizon.

[rubicon]

I don't think it's nearly as dark as many here Pipdoc. I'm actually cautiously optimistic. Not right now, but on the distant horizon.

Kurt, When House Speaker Madigan and Senate President Cullerton Retire, Die or are abducted by Space Aliens...a whole lot of things are going to change in Illinois. Until then...

[Don Gwinn]

I have to agree with X-Wing. They can blame whoever they want, but they're the ones in the way of their professed goal. Sure, the NRA and TSRA could be soft - pedaling on open carry for a variety of reasons, but they aren't going out in public and turning the general public against the idea. They didn't create the only victory Shannon Watts can claim and make her a legitimate figure in the national debate, and they didn't provoke a major American city to bar open carry where it had always been legal before.

 

Sending under educated goofballs out to point rifles around restaurants at low ready and harass chain - restaurant managers is a failed tactic.

[kurt555gs]

What city is that Don? We all agree OCT has been hard on the 2A cause nationwide. I do not condone what they have done. There are fewer places I'm welcome to conceal carry because of them. My point was they were out of conventional options and really had nothing to lose by taking the "scorched earth" policy they did. They weren't going to get open carry in Texas by normal negotiated means. Now they most likely are. But licensed open carry is most likely and that won't help OCT's leader because he has been disqualified for some reason from having a Texas CHL. So the world turns.

[lockman]

If you haven't noticed, if MDA can not find legitimate photos and circumstances to make their point they manufacture their own. The chipolte gathering was with full approval of the management. The latest photo/caption campaign is obviously all manufactured ads.

[kurt555gs]

Personally I would be open carrying if I lived in Texas right now. You can open carry "antiques" under current law. I would spend the money on an original Colt Peacemaker with black powder cartridges and that would be that.

[brianj - now in Kansas]

Personally I would be open carrying if I lived in Texas right now. You can open carry "antiques" under current law. I would spend the money on an original Colt Peacemaker with black powder cartridges and that would be that.

 

 

And that was my understanding of current Texas law, and why I was so aggravated with the OCT folks. They did NOT need to make the point with longarms. They could have just gone out, bought a nice set of 1851 Navy cap-and-ball revolvers, put them in a nice leather holster, and made the exact same point in a much more effective way.

 

Then, the logic jump would have been, "Hey, these folks have been legally carrying revolvers for a couple of years. No accidental discharges, no revolvers have left the holster except in the interest of public good. So, since they already have open carry of a sort already, and nothing bad has happened, it makes sense to expand it."

 

Now, we're asking the legislature to go from, "Hey, these folks have been staging demonstrations running around with Scary Black Guns!!" to "They want us to trust them with open carry???"

 

And they're not even that expensive. According to Cabella's website, you can pick one up for $199 right now (and it's not like Cabella's is the least expensive gun store around). http://www.cabelas.com/product/Pietta-Model-Navy-Caliber-Revolver/705021.uts

 

So, no. I agree that open carry should be legal (in all 50 states), and should not require a permit. But saying that it is somehow the fault of the NRA that the NRA has been having to repair the PR damage that OCT has been doing is, in my opinion, disingenuous at best.

 

Brian

[TimGiblin]

Kurt I have a few questions. Have you ever seen a wilding(twitter flash mob attack) do you think you could handle it without a retention holster alone?

 

Do you think someone should be able to Oc a 3 lb trigger Glock sans holster in an elementary school?

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

[kurt555gs]

Here you go Tim. One of my favorite open carry rigs. You will notice the retention strap on the hammer. But it's a choice. Micromanaging every detail with legislation doesn't work

 

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/16/4facfed53a29e88f3ea1f0ddc43b8e45.jpg

[bcook619]

 

Never having OCed before I cannot claim to be an expert. But I would assume I could cary my black gun in a black holster and 99% of folks would never even notice anyway. I would not be a fan of OC of long guns under any circumstance. If you do that, you are a complete (fool).

 

Ive said it before but OC would have made much more sence from a Law maker point of view. You meet the supreme court guide line while also ensuring compliance with singage.

Never having OCed...you do not understand the issue and it cannot be explained to you...anymore than Sex can be explained to a Virgin. You are against Open Carry of Long Arms under any circumstance..I think you must not hunt either! Were the early settlers of this Continent "(Fools)", Were the Patriots of 1776 "(Fools)", were the Pioneers of the West "(Fools)"...How about Cowboys. Sorry, but your lack of understanding of the term "Bear Arms" is beyond comprehension, you have allowed the oppressors to create false images in your mind as to what your Right to Bear Arms really means. Look at Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona... and many other states that understand what a Right is, especially the ONLY one to include the words "Shall NOT be infringed"!

 

No right is absolute, if that is the starting point of this then it is also the end. My point is that folks who OC long guns due so for only 1 reason, to get attention. It has zero tactical advantage. But yes I do hunt and I carry a long gun while hunting. But I DO NOT carry my SKS while getting a cup of coffee.

[TimGiblin]

 

 

 

Never having OCed before I cannot claim to be an expert. But I would assume I could cary my black gun in a black holster and 99% of folks would never even notice anyway. I would not be a fan of OC of long guns under any circumstance. If you do that, you are a complete (fool).

 

Ive said it before but OC would have made much more sence from a Law maker point of view. You meet the supreme court guide line while also ensuring compliance with singage.

 

 

Never having OCed...you do not understand the issue and it cannot be explained to you...anymore than Sex can be explained to a Virgin. You are against Open Carry of Long Arms under any circumstance..I think you must not hunt either! Were the early settlers of this Continent "(Fools)", Were the Patriots of 1776 "(Fools)", were the Pioneers of the West "(Fools)"...How about Cowboys. Sorry, but your lack of understanding of the term "Bear Arms" is beyond comprehension, you have allowed the oppressors to create false images in your mind as to what your Right to Bear Arms really means. Look at Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona... and many other states that understand what a Right is, especially the ONLY one to include the words "Shall NOT be infringed"!

 

 

 

No right is absolute, if that is the starting point of this then it is also the end. My point is that folks who OC long guns due so for only 1 reason, to get attention. It has zero tactical advantage. But yes I do hunt and I carry a long gun while hunting. But I DO NOT carry my SKS while getting a cup of coffee.

that is not intrinsically true. I remember trek interviewing a parent who carried a 22 escorting his daughter to the bus stop. It was all he had. Someone gave him a pistol and he was very grateful.

 

Kids at his daughters school were being targeted at bus stops.

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

[bobapunk]

 

Pretty sure our founders didn't have retension holsters when they drafted and ratified the constitution.

I'm also positive they meant exactly what they said in "the RIGHT of the PEOPLE to KEEP and BEAR ARMS shall NOT be INFRINGED.

I don't understand all the confusion, seems pretty straight forward to me

indeed not. And I would refuse your entry for Mexican carrying a handgun into my store for my customers safety. Your arguments crap they didn't have guns that a 4 year olds finger would set it off. With flashpans they weren't exactly condition 1 walking around.

 

If you think walking around with an IPSC rig isn't beyond retarded and store owners should have to let them in your ridiculous. Pre revolutionary war you'd have to set the hammer down before walking in somewhere and often clear the flash pan.

 

I think no one should be able to ban oc with a retention holster barring metal detectors and armed guards and with those lockers should be provided. Retention holster carrying should be a protected class.

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

 

 

Open Division IPSC holsters have actual locks that hold the pistol more securely than a Serpa (or similar)...

[mauserme]

...

Micromanaging every detail with legislation doesn't work

That's very true.

 

I'm sure you'll remember a year ago having similar "discusions" with people who wanted to limit the training they provided to certian minimim calibers, restrict their students to carrying a single friearm, score the targets in ways that weren't required, etc even though a lot of work went into keeping those things out of the law.

 

I said at the time that instructors have a great deal of insight and good ideas to pass on to those they train. I respect that, but not every good idea should be law because, in trying to incorporate them into legislation, that law quickly becomes unworkable in a real world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No right is absolute, if that is the starting point of this then it is also the end. My point is that folks who OC long guns due so for only 1 reason, to get attention. It has zero tactical advantage. But yes I do hunt and I carry a long gun while hunting. But I DO NOT carry my SKS while getting a cup of coffee.

 

Kurt made a very similar point about OCT's desire for attention as a last resort to solving their problem. Perhaps they understand that the only possible limitations on a right are those the citizenry willingly accepts through the ballot box, lobbying their legislators, etc. After all, you don't see a Federal "assault weapon" ban any longer because voters made different choices about that.

 

He seems more interested in open carrying revolvers, though. At least for now.

[TimGiblin]

 

 

Pretty sure our founders didn't have retension holsters when they drafted and ratified the constitution.

I'm also positive they meant exactly what they said in "the RIGHT of the PEOPLE to KEEP and BEAR ARMS shall NOT be INFRINGED.

I don't understand all the confusion, seems pretty straight forward to me

 

indeed not. And I would refuse your entry for Mexican carrying a handgun into my store for my customers safety. Your arguments crap they didn't have guns that a 4 year olds finger would set it off. With flashpans they weren't exactly condition 1 walking around.

If you think walking around with an IPSC rig isn't beyond retarded and store owners should have to let them in your ridiculous. Pre revolutionary war you'd have to set the hammer down before walking in somewhere and often clear the flash pan.

I think no one should be able to ban oc with a retention holster barring metal detectors and armed guards and with those lockers should be provided. Retention holster carrying should be a protected class.

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

Open Division IPSC holsters have actual locks that hold the pistol more securely than a Serpa (or similar)...

and you'd insist they be locked wouldn't you? At least in an elementary school

 

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.

[kurt555gs]

I open carry holstered handguns where legal. I'm not interested in open carrying rifles in urban areas. No point in my opinion. To answer your question Mauser.

 

I'm surprised Tim didn't comment on my preferred open carry rig since it does have a hammer strap. I want to be clear that I do not want to see any requirements for open carry and that it is a choice on how to bear arms.