Business Liability when employees CC

[rockbassray]

 

Hello I am a business owner looking for some guidance on a question. My question is what is the legality of having an employee CC in my business vs a customer CC and in the event it ever has to be unholstered or used. I support the right to CC but worried on the liability as a business owner of letting an employee CC in my place of business. It is a double sided questions because I am open to customers CC, but i am worried on the liability of an employee CC. any help would be great!

 

[cjurczak]

I am not a lawyer, and I'd love to tell you that there is no liability to your employees/customers carrying a concealed weapon in your place of business.I wish I had better news, but I'm just not sure that there is an answer to this question just yet. I'd talk to a real lawyer, but I think they would be speculating as well, but more educated speculation than myself.

[Mark Brody]

Sounds like a good question for a lawyer. There are a few here, but the vast majority of us are just average joes.

 

If the weapon ever has to be upholstered and used, be thankful that you have a licensed and trained CC licensee with you. I don't imagine you're likely to have negligent discharges or unlawful use of weapons by CC licensees, but if you do, I don't know what your liability is.

[rockbassray]

I would assume my business may have to jump thru legal hoops in the event anything did happen, wether it is an employee or a CC customer. Although I think having an employee who is in the store eveyday might hold up as more of a liability issue then having customers in concealed. Because due to the fact that my store then has a firearm present at all times in there, Which i think might be an issue with OSHA stanard as far keeping a safe work enviroment. the only other possibility i think would be having those employees purchase liabaility insurance and be able to provide that proof of insurance to a amanager at anytime asked.

[My 2 cents]

Hello I am a business owner looking for some guidance on a question. My question is what is the legality of having an employee CC in my business vs a customer CC and in the event it ever has to be unholstered or used. I support the right to CC but worried on the liability as a business owner of letting an employee CC in my place of business. It is a double sided questions because I am open to customers CC, but i am worried on the liability of an employee CC. any help would be great!

 

I am also not a lawyer but I would imagine the type of business you're in might be a factor.

 

Personally I would feel safer in a working environment with ALL my coworkers as CCW licensees.

 

Maybe it would be worth a call to your insurance company to see if you get some sort of break on your insurance. Ask them if you have CCW licensee's working for you and signs posted stating that your employee's may be armed will your rates will go down. These CCL holders have all had 16 hrs. of training and scrutinized by the ISP before they recieved a license.

 

I do really think your bussiness is safer with licensed CCW card holders than without.

 

Think of all the positive aspects and I hope everything works out well for you.

[TomKoz]

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

 

Either way you are screwed, and ....

"you didn't build that". Just pay the man.

[rockbassray]

i agree my 2 cents, this is my plan for employes to CC in my retail store.

 

1.) Having to pruchase liability firearm insurance ( 9$-40$ ) a month

2.) Show atleast 2 receipts per month of going to the range to practice

3.) Sign a contract with my business explaining the rules, requirements and reasons for terminination if any of those rules are broken

 

Setting these 3 rules provides a solid structure of a CCW holder, with insurance and up to date training. and proof of that training.

[RockerXX]

There is always going to be liability for a business when the employee is on the clock be it gun or no gun, justified or not, accident or on purpose...

 

Talk to a lawyer and consult with your insurance company...

 

As for OSHA your job as an employer according to them is to prevent 'workplace violence and injury' with policy and safety measures... Carrying a gun is neither violent, injurious or a safety concern in itself... OSHA has workplace violence guidelines read them and follow them and you should not have OSHA concerns... Basically just establish rules for your employees that want to carry, aka tell them to keep it holstered at work and obey the laws... https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25504

[rockbassray]

There is always going to be liability for a business when the employee is on the clock be it gun or no gun, justified or not, accident or on purpose...

 

Talk to a lawyer and consult with your insurance company...

 

As for OSHA your job as an employer according to them is to prevent 'workplace violence and injury' with policy and safety measures... Carrying a gun is neither violent, injurious or a safety concern in itself... OSHA has workplace violence guidelines read them and follow them and you should not have OSHA concerns... Basically just establish rules for your employees that want to carry, aka tell them to keep it holstered at work and obey the laws... https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25504

i agree , but what about employees that do not want CC employees carrying? i cant cater to all...

[RockerXX]

i agree , but what about employees that do not want CC employees carrying? i cant cater to all...

 

 

You are the boss, and it's your business is it not? Run your business the way you want...

[My 2 cents]

i agree my 2 cents, this is my plan for employes to CC in my retail store.

 

1.) Having to pruchase liability firearm insurance ( 9$-40$ ) a month

2.) Show atleast 2 receipts per month of going to the range to practice

3.) Sign a contract with my business explaining the rules, requirements and reasons for terminination if any of those rules are broken

 

Setting these 3 rules provides a solid structure of a CCW holder, with insurance and up to date training. and proof of that training.

From an outsider looking in I think range 2 times per month can get a little costly. Maybe this could be one of the fringe benefits of the job? How do they provide evidence if they go to the free places in Indiana or on peoples private property? You're the boss but I would say that these are also the type of employees that any employer would want to have working for them. Just me thinking out loud.

[DoverGunner]

 

i agree , but what about employees that do not want CC employees carrying? i cant cater to all...

 

 

You are the boss, and it's your business is it not? Run your business the way you want...

 

This Exactly . As you well know you cannot make everyone happy , those that are unhappy can go elsewhere to find happiness

[rockbassray]

I agree you cant never make everyone happy, i recently purchased personal firearm liability insurance. and feel my employees should have it as well if they wish to carry in my business. I goto the range twice a month and feel it is the bare min to keep up to date on your firearm, i am not trying to make it impossible to carry as an employee, but instead making it is safe as possible, constant practice, insurance are perhaps the two biggest things to have after your CCL.

[TomKoz]

 

i agree , but what about employees that do not want CC employees carrying? i cant cater to all...

 

You are the boss, and it's your business is it not? Run your business the way you want...

You do mean the way the government tells you to, don't you???

[RockerXX]

I agree you cant never make everyone happy, i recently purchased personal firearm liability insurance. and feel my employees should have it as well if they wish to carry in my business. I goto the range twice a month and feel it is the bare min to keep up to date on your firearm, i am not trying to make it impossible to carry as an employee, but instead making it is safe as possible, constant practice, insurance are perhaps the two biggest things to have after your CCL.

 

It's a fallacy that training and practice = safety... And employee personal insurance is not going to cover the business if sued, especially if a situation happens while the employee is on the clock and/or it's on your property...

 

IMO your proposed ideals for employees to carry are more inline with the antis way of thinking and controlling then that of a pro 2nd advocate...

 

But, as I said it's your business, do what you feel is right for your business, but I can tell you straight up if you tossed those rules out at me as an employee I would walk before you finished the list of 3...

[TRJ]

Perhaps a look at the liability from a different angle is in order. If your retail store is selected to be the next Lane Bryant type mass murder by a deranged member of society what is your liability for having not provided proper security. The police are not responsible for insuring your or your customer's safety. Disarm staff and the public and expect to be sued for having prevented them from saving themselves.

There's a reason big box stores "follow State law" and remain mum. They paid their attorney and decided on the path they're on.

[Blackcat44]

IMO your liability would pretty much be the same as a bank or retail store who hires an armed security guard on duty. Ask around this shouldn't be un chartered waters.

[mauserme]

You have to keep in mind that, although concealed carry is new to Illinois, it's well established throughout the country. It would be instructive to look to other states' expereince for an answer.

 

I'm not going to imply that no business has ever been sued under the circumstances you present but, if it was common, I think we would know more about it anecdotally. I've never heard of this problem occurring though I have heard of the opposite - employees saving the day because they were carrying. You should research that, though, and decide for youself.

[GAS3987]

Perhaps a look at the liability from a different angle is in order. If your retail store is selected to be the next Lane Bryant type mass murder by a deranged member of society what is your liability for having not provided proper security. The police are not responsible for insuring your or your customer's safety. Disarm staff and the public and expect to be sued for having prevented them from saving themselves.

There's a reason big box stores "follow State law" and remain mum. They paid their attorney and decided on the path they're on.

 

Yes, this.

 

What about the liability if you force them to not be armed, and something happens?

 

My "manager" at work is fairly anti. The owner of the establishment is pro, and asked me where I took my class because he was interested, too.

 

I also work with several pro, and one guy who is a hunter but anti CC.

 

So, I leave it in the car which is not far away.

[Indigo]

i agree my 2 cents, this is my plan for employes to CC in my retail store.

 

1.) Having to pruchase liability firearm insurance ( 9$-40$ ) a month

2.) Show atleast 2 receipts per month of going to the range to practice

3.) Sign a contract with my business explaining the rules, requirements and reasons for terminination if any of those rules are broken

 

Setting these 3 rules provides a solid structure of a CCW holder, with insurance and up to date training. and proof of that training.

How and where do you obtain this liability insurance? No company writes liability insurance for a voluntary act of self defense. Are you referring to liability for negligent discharges? Or are you thinking of the plans like the NRA or Second Call - type coverage?

[bob]

I suspect that if you make a bunch of rules up about training and practice and what can and cannot be carried that it may create more liability for your business than if you don't, since you as the business are making these decisions, and they may turn out to be bad ones down the road at some point.

 

Talk to your lawyer and your insurance company and see what they think. My guess is both will tell you something similar and it is probably something you won't like.

[mostholycerebus]

You should talk to a lawyer, but if you were my boss and something happened to me because you impeded my ability to protect myself, I would sue the **** out of you.

 

 

 

1.) Having to pruchase liability firearm insurance ( 9$-40$ ) a month

2.) Show atleast 2 receipts per month of going to the range to practice

 

I hope you are compensating your employees to offset these increased costs you are requiring. Or again, you are applying an economic impediment to my civil right to self defense.

 

A 15 min chat with a lawyer should clear up most things, but really, you are waaaay blowing this out of proportion. In general CCW guys have taken a full weekend class, including target practice, spend about a grand to get there, and generally stay under the radar because they are busy trying to live their lives.

[domin8]

Prior to moving to Illinois I lived in Virginia. Before Virginia was Utah, so understand that I'm very pro 2A and pro cc. I've been in Illinois for 2 years and will be leaving in about 13 months. As you can see, I have been around this.

 

In Utah guns are everywhere. It's not a huge deal, so much in fact that I never owned one because it was mainstream. You don't hear of Salt Lake City being Murder Capital USA. While living in Utah I felt safe and didn't feel a need to own a firearm, even after being a part of (I really have a hard time claiming I was a victim even though I would be defined as one) a very horrific workplace shooting. I'm going into the details beyond the fact that my boss was killed, one of the servers I was working as a bus boy for is now a quadriplegic, one of the customers, there to celebrate a child's birthday, was killed in the parking lot because he was trying to protect his daughter, and another customer was shot in the face, but managed to drive away and get to a gas station and call for help. No employees were armed. I had training from the Marines as an Infantryman, but accessed that doing nothing was better than doing something. All I had at my disposal were steak knives. Had I had a firearm the reality is I would not have been able to save my manager's life or prevented my coworker and friend from becoming a quadriplegic, but a may have been able to prevent the gunman from killing a father that was trying to protect his daughter and from the gunman shooting the woman in the face that managed to get to safety. Yes, I feel partially responsible because I didn't do anything.

 

In Virginia, back in mid-April 2011, my company was robbed at gunpoint. When the guy walked in the door he pulled the slide back on his handgun and then started pointing it at employees while ordering them onto the floor. They complied. Once they were on the floor he went for the register. It only had the minimum $150. The store manager had just left a few minutes prior to make the daily deposit at the bank. Due to the low value of currency in the register the thief started inquiring about a safe. We didn't have one, so there was no extra money in the store that the thief was able to obtain. Only the store manager and I knew about the location of the petty cash, another $150. I wasn't going to talk beyond complying with the thief's commands. He never asked me about petty cash. Due to his low value of takings from the register he then ordered employees to surrender their wallets, wedding rings and other valuables on them, and then demanded ATM PIN numbers for their debit cards. The one employee who questioned the need for the PIN numbers then had a sin gun used on him twice, to which he gave his PIN number. The thief then left. My companies response to the whole ordeal was to lock all doors except the one the thief entered through, and marginally upgraded the security system to give the store manager a small panic button the size of a key fob for cars that he could push a button on and the police would be alerted. This is when I decided to purchase a gun and obtain a concealed carry permit in Virginia. The employee who was stunned also started carrying his personal firearm. A few months later he transferred to another store for personal reasons. A few months before I moved to Illinois a customer walked into the store open carrying a revolver, which is legal in Virginia. Because of the prior robbery the employees of the store ran into the back to get away from the gun, leaving me to deal with the customer. I was conceal carrying that day. Fortunately, nothing happened and the customer was very pleasant to deal with. After the customer left I talked to the employees. They said all they saw was a gun and couldn't tell me anything about the customer. They also felt safer having me deal with the customer because they knew I was armed.

 

Going back to the thief that robbed the store at gunpoint, I saw him a few weeks later walking down the street. I called the police non emergency number to report his whereabouts. The police took their sweet time responding to the call. By the time they got back to me the guy had attempted to rob another store in the area. The story I heard was the thief hit a jewelry store this time. As he was corralling the employees he saw into a room in the back at gunpoint the business owner walked out of another room with his gun drawn and surprised the thief. The thief saw the owner's gun and decided to run. No shots were fired by either person. Nothing was taken from that store.

 

These are just examples from my personal life. I point them out to bring to your attention some of the realities associated with having policies that either prohibit or allow your employees to carry concealed firearms at work. Personally, I would hope more employers allow employees to carry concealed firearms. Their is a benefit, and I believe it outweighs the risks. The statistics are on the employees side when it comes to defensive use of firearms. A large number of defensive uses don't involve the actual shooting of the gun. I've heard that number be as high as 80%. Data also suggests the defensive use of a firearm occurs as much as 2,000,000 times per year. That means as many as 1,600,000 defensive uses of a firearm did not have the trigger pulled.

 

If the police officers job were truly to serve and protect do you think they'd take an average of 20 minutes to respond to a 911 call? The police response time to Sandy Hook was 21 minutes. What will the police tell you to do in those 20 minutes? "You are on your own." In that time I hope to be able to save my own life, even though it means I'm likely be ordered to the ground, handcuffed, and placed in the back of a police car for doing something lawful. It's a hassle many people accept when they choose to carry a concealed firearm.

 

You should probably keep in mind that data also shows people who lawfully carry concealed firearms are 13 times less likely to have any trouble with the law when compared to the general populace. You should consider yourself fortunate to have a representative from such a respectable segment of the community working for you. Statistically speaking, your employee that carries a concealed firearm should be trusted more, not less, than the rest of your employees. Concealed Carry holders undergo daily checks such as review by the police to see if their name pops up on the daily arrest records from the day before. Utah, for example, said they only find 1 concealed carry permit holder for every 100,000 arrests. Utah's population is 2,000,000.

 

Concerning negligent discharges, I think the key word is negligence. If an employee is negligent in any duty of their job there are consequences, up to and including termination. I suggest you have a talk with your employees about this and the concealed carry of firearms. There is no reason for a firearm to be unholstered in the typical day-to-day operations of a business. You might want to ask your employees to be judicious about unholstering a firearm at work, for example when there is a serious enough that to one's life, safety, or well-being.

 

Your concerns are legitimate, and something you need to seriously ponder. When it comes to ensuring your employees are trained properly it should be noted that Illinois has the longest and strictest course requirements in the country. If you want them to go beyond the state minimum requirements I would encourage you to recommend they seek additional training. And, because this would be your requirement, I recommend your business either pay for it, and pay the employees hourly wages for the time they're in the course, or come up with some other agreed situation with your employees. I highly recommend Black Flag Training's Force in Force Level 1 course. It goes over Shoot/Don't Shoot Drills, proper clearing of a room, and scenarios such as a restaurant, bank, etc. Speaking as prior trained Marine Infantry in MOUT (movement over urban terrain), this course is top notch. Contact rocco@blackflagtraining.com for more info, and ask about his credentials and those of his assistant instructors. I think you'll be impressed.

 

As for your requirement to continue training. I like the logic, but feel your reasoning is flawed. Shooting properly does require muscle memory. If you don't use it you will lose it. However, punching paper is only good for grip, stance, etc. You aren't allowed to draw from a holster, shoot around barriers from concealment, etc. Plus, ammo isn't cheap. If you want your employees to continue training, good for you. They likely want to too. If this will be your requirement, I recommend you fork over the ammo and pay for the training course. I go to Excel Training Group's Skills & Drills monthly on the 2nd Tuesday of every month at Article 2 in Lombard. It is only $25, but will require a holster course first, which is $150. This course is great for maintaining and developing muscle memory to come out of a holster and using a firearm under pressure. Another recommendation is for you to purchase your employee a SIRT pistol and allow them to practice with it during down time at the company. SIRT pistols cannot load ammunition or magazines, so it is impossible to have a negligent discharge. It lights a laser then the trigger is pulled. No loud noise, so if the employees were able to do this in a closed office no other employees would know.

 

Concerning the insurance issue, first I'll point out that Illinois has civil immunity in the event of a lawful use of a firearm (meaning self defense). Although the criminals family may try to sue (and they'll likely have a hard time finding an attorney to represent them), if they did the courts would likely throw out the suit. Furthermore, there are insurance policies out there for defensive uses of a firearm, but I doubt they cover your business. They typically cover the individual who had to draw his firearm from concealment and use it. In many situations that insurance covers bail if they go to jail, an attorney, court costs, etc. The insurance will not cover you or your business.

 

I'm sorry this post is long, and likely full of spelling and grammatical errors. I hope it has been beneficial to you. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on tv. What I have stated are both my testimony and opinions.

[miztic]

I take classes 2-3 times a year, but cut back on monthly range visits to conserve ammo and save $$, I feel I get more from the classes then constant range visits where I can't holster draw, shoot with any kind of speed or on a timer, can't shoot & move etc.

So to me range receipts don't do a whole lot to show competency.

 

I consider my boss a "fudd", he's ok with people carrying outside the business and having guns at their desks, but he doesn't want people carrying all day at work, so we get lock boxes at our desks to keep our guns in. His requirements were that you had to go to the range with him so he could see you were competent with a firearm, this requirement got waved for me because he never had time to go, and I kept bringing in certificates from various classes.

[bmyers]

My thoughts, not that it counts for anything, are that you would create a short policy for your company.

 

It would be something along the lines: Illinois currently allows individuals that have met the requirements set forth by the Illinois FCCL to carry concealed firearm(s) on his/her person. In accordance with this law, our company will be following the Illinois State law and those properly licensed (customers/employees) will be permitted to carry a firearm(s) on company property. All laws concerning FCCL must be followed at all times while on ABC company property. Any violation of the law by any individual could cause an immediate notification of local law enforcement and in cases where an employee is involved potential disciplinary action taken upon an employee up to and including termination as set forth by the company's disciplinary policy.

 

Now, if you are involved in an incident, you have a company policy and you are showing that you were following Illinois State law. If you start setting your own standards, you better be able to prove why you set those standards and how they insured a higher level of safety.

 

As with any policy, I would make sure you run it by your corporate legal team.

[Uncle Harley]

I'm not a lawyer, but hear me out, I deal with liability issues quite a bit with my day job. IMO you should just make your policy that you will follow state law, Period end of policy. If an employee violates state law, I would think the liability would fall on them, not you. If you start adding to or taking away from state law, I would think some liability would shift to you. For example, if it was company policy that they had to practice once a month and show receipts, what if someone didn't and carried anyways. Lawyers would have a hay day asking you questions on why you didn't verify he was not carrying that month if he had not turned in receipts per your company policy.

[potomuss]

If either your insurance company/contact or lawyer are anti in the least you know what they're answer will be...

I know of a situation where the lawyer was pushing the business to post. Owners are pro. A certain studious employee came forward with the suggestion that the background check process for hiring was not very thorough, and as a result could be used to prove negligence (failure to provide a safe working environment) should an employee with a checkered past 'go postal'. That type of negligence could be used as the basis for a lawsuit regardless of CCW on premises, but said employee would be much more likely to hold said business responsible if stripped of the means of self defense (for them and and their co-workers). Just something to think about.

 

Also, as stated before, I doubt an employee's personal liability insurance will protect your business at all. If something happens and there is a civil lawsuit, they'll come for everyone involved regardless.

 

Range time requirement sounds a little stiff, unless you were thinking about footing the bill. After all, you're getting free armed guards willing to protect both customers and other employees. I'm all for training and shoot at least twice a month myself, and that doesn't include the non-shooting practice. Maybe you should make it a team building exercise and buy the range time! You get a tax write off and can even verify if your employees can hit the broad side of a barn!

[Blackbeard]

The bottom line is, if one of your employees shoots someone while on the job, rightly or wrongly, you're likey going to get sued because you have the deep pockets. If you have a no guns policy, it makes it more difficult for the gold-diggers plaintiffs to prove that you are liable for whatever injuries your employee caused.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I play one on the internet...

[Uncle Harley]

The bottom line is, if one of your employees shoots someone while on the job, rightly or wrongly, you're likey going to get sued because you have the deep pockets. If you have a no guns policy, it makes it more difficult for the gold-diggers plaintiffs to prove that you are liable for whatever injuries your employee caused.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I play one on the internet...

 

If he's just following state law, and doesn't know who is carrying and who isn't, then it would be hard to hold him liable as well. But as soon as he starts picking and choosing who can carry based off of his criteria, ALL the liability would be on him.

[Blackbeard]

 

The bottom line is, if one of your employees shoots someone while on the job, rightly or wrongly, you're likey going to get sued because you have the deep pockets. If you have a no guns policy, it makes it more difficult for the gold-diggers plaintiffs to prove that you are liable for whatever injuries your employee caused.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I play one on the internet...

 

If he's just following state law, and doesn't know who is carrying and who isn't, then it would be hard to hold him liable as well. But as soon as he starts picking and choosing who can carry based off of his criteria, ALL the liability would be on him.

 

 

This is true, but that won't prevent him from being sued. The court battle will be expensive even if he's in the right. If you have a no-guns policy and your employees mostly obey it, the risk of this situation arising is diminished. Obviously I'm not happy about it but that's the way it is.