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ISP Files New Emergency Rules for Instructors - April 16, 2014


Molly B.
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NRA T&E has nothing to do with this.

 

Since they own NRA BP and are pretty clear in their position that it is not to be marketed at a concealed carry class, they do have a lot to do with it.

 

If you are using NR BP/PPITH/PPOTH, as a state approved replacement, you are teaching 2 separate classes and should complete the certificate as such.

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I believe NRA T&E would disagree with your assessment. If prior credit is bring claimed, it doesn't matter when it was completed or who taught it. It's 8 hours prior verified and 8 CCL hours taught.

 

NRA Basic Pistol is not concealed carry curriculum. It is an approved replacement for part of the 16 hrs requirement.

 

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+1

 

I see CLIC as a second 8 hour curriculum. I do not recall BP being part of CLIC, nor do I recall seeing a curriculum ID issued to Basic Pistol.

 

I see the problem. I made the assumption that you had your own curriculum! If you do not have your own curriculum #, then you are stuck with VERIFYING 8 hours for Basic Pistol (even though you provided the instruction) because you don't have a number that includes it (you are right, there is no number for BP on it's own, and there could not be. It doesn't include everything you need to meet the state requirements). Then you have to add another curriculum (like CLIC) for the second 8 hours. If you have your own curriculum number, you can include BP as the first day of that curriculum, removing the need for keeping the BP cert for state purposes.

 

 

Again, I think the NRA T&E would not want you to do that.

 

You are teaching an NRA Class and a Non NRA Class, There MUST be delineation between the two. The NRA is pretty clear on this in the Instructor Guide.

 

What is your opposition to verifying the approved prior 8?

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Section 1231.30 Instructor Approval Revocation
EMERGENCY
a) Revocation or expiration of either the FOID Card or FCCL, as provided in
Section 1231.20, shall result in the immediate revocation of the Instructor's
approval.
B) The Department may revoke an Instructor's approval upon receiving substantiated
information that the Instructor is not teaching the curriculum in a manner
consistent with Section 75 of the Act.
c) The Department may, without providing prior notice, audit an Instructor's
scheduled training for purposes of investigating allegations that an Instructor
and/or curriculum is not in compliance with the Act and this Part. Complaints
regarding Instructors may be made by calling the Illinois State Police Academy at
(217)786-0284.
1) To facilitate an adequate audit trail, instructors shall maintain all records
to support any training certification as required by Section 75(f) of the
Act, which shall include:
A) copies of training certificates currently accepted to satisfy the prior
training credit submitted by students;
B) training rosters;
C) written performance scores;
D) live-fire qualification scores; and
E) proof of overall completion of training (successful or unsuccessful)

Does anyone know what written performance scores ISP is talking about here? And as far as the live-fire goes, How are you guys scoring the 70%? I just score 21 out of 30 hits on silhouette and mark that as a pass. I do not count passed 21 when scoring targets. I assume we are expected to keep records slightly more detailed than that now?

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Section 1231.30 Instructor Approval Revocation
EMERGENCY
a) Revocation or expiration of either the FOID Card or FCCL, as provided in
Section 1231.20, shall result in the immediate revocation of the Instructor's
approval.
:cool: The Department may revoke an Instructor's approval upon receiving substantiated
information that the Instructor is not teaching the curriculum in a manner
consistent with Section 75 of the Act.
c) The Department may, without providing prior notice, audit an Instructor's
scheduled training for purposes of investigating allegations that an Instructor
and/or curriculum is not in compliance with the Act and this Part. Complaints
regarding Instructors may be made by calling the Illinois State Police Academy at
(217)786-0284.
1) To facilitate an adequate audit trail, instructors shall maintain all records
to support any training certification as required by Section 75(f) of the
Act, which shall include:
A) copies of training certificates currently accepted to satisfy the prior
training credit submitted by students;
:cool: training rosters;
C) written performance scores;
D) live-fire qualification scores; and
E) proof of overall completion of training (successful or unsuccessful)

Does anyone know what written performance scores ISP is talking about here? And as far as the live-fire goes, How are you guys scoring the 70%? I just score 21 out of 30 hits on silhouette and mark that as a pass. I do not count passed 21 when scoring targets. I assume we are expected to keep records slightly more detailed than that now?

 

 

 

See opening post.

 

We are still working with the ISP to clarify the language. Our understanding of live fire qualification score is a record of yes 70% of hits were on the silhouette or no they were not.

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Section 1231.30 Instructor Approval Revocation
EMERGENCY
a) Revocation or expiration of either the FOID Card or FCCL, as provided in
Section 1231.20, shall result in the immediate revocation of the Instructor's
approval.
:cool: The Department may revoke an Instructor's approval upon receiving substantiated
information that the Instructor is not teaching the curriculum in a manner
consistent with Section 75 of the Act.
c) The Department may, without providing prior notice, audit an Instructor's
scheduled training for purposes of investigating allegations that an Instructor
and/or curriculum is not in compliance with the Act and this Part. Complaints
regarding Instructors may be made by calling the Illinois State Police Academy at
(217)786-0284.
1) To facilitate an adequate audit trail, instructors shall maintain all records
to support any training certification as required by Section 75(f) of the
Act, which shall include:
A) copies of training certificates currently accepted to satisfy the prior
training credit submitted by students;
:cool: training rosters;
C) written performance scores;
D) live-fire qualification scores; and
E) proof of overall completion of training (successful or unsuccessful)

Does anyone know what written performance scores ISP is talking about here? And as far as the live-fire goes, How are you guys scoring the 70%? I just score 21 out of 30 hits on silhouette and mark that as a pass. I do not count passed 21 when scoring targets. I assume we are expected to keep records slightly more detailed than that now?

 

 

We have 2 documents to "prove" that the classwork was completed. For the Livefire Qual, we simply write the shooter's name, the date, and the hits that count on the white space of the target and take a digital photo. easy peasy.

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I'm to not have to add to the paperwork workload if I don't have to. I keep a class roster, sign-in sheets and all registration information on every student in a database that has date of class, pass/fail, etc. And I also keep copies of training docs. I am hoping a simple pass/fail is all that will be required for the target.

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I'm to not have to add to the paperwork workload if I don't have to. I keep a class roster, sign-in sheets and all registration information on every student in a database that has date of class, pass/fail, etc. And I also keep copies of training docs. I am hoping a simple pass/fail is all that will be required for the target.

 

The law requires 70% of hits to be on the target - they either are or they are not. Pass/fail is the line we will hold unless there is a change in the law.

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I do not keep a class roster, I keep each student's file separate. If they were to ask me for a student's record, I could easily look it up in seconds. If I were to keep a roster I would have to first look up which class they attended.

 

 

I have been keeping all documents for CYA purposes since the beginning. I was advocating this records keeping at the beginning and some people said it would be unnecessary. It only makes sense though, so you can PROVE you were shown a training doc and if it is fraudulent, that is on the student not the instructor. All training certificates, all targets, everything has been saved. At some point in the future I will eventually make digital copies as well. On each target students sign, date and print their name.

Edited by cgs
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Section 1231.30 Instructor Approval Revocation
EMERGENCY
a) Revocation or expiration of either the FOID Card or FCCL, as provided in
Section 1231.20, shall result in the immediate revocation of the Instructor's
approval.
:cool: The Department may revoke an Instructor's approval upon receiving substantiated
information that the Instructor is not teaching the curriculum in a manner
consistent with Section 75 of the Act.
c) The Department may, without providing prior notice, audit an Instructor's
scheduled training for purposes of investigating allegations that an Instructor
and/or curriculum is not in compliance with the Act and this Part. Complaints
regarding Instructors may be made by calling the Illinois State Police Academy at
(217)786-0284.
1) To facilitate an adequate audit trail, instructors shall maintain all records
to support any training certification as required by Section 75(f) of the
Act, which shall include:
A) copies of training certificates currently accepted to satisfy the prior
training credit submitted by students;
:cool: training rosters;
C) written performance scores;
D) live-fire qualification scores; and
E) proof of overall completion of training (successful or unsuccessful)

Does anyone know what written performance scores ISP is talking about here? And as far as the live-fire goes, How are you guys scoring the 70%? I just score 21 out of 30 hits on silhouette and mark that as a pass. I do not count passed 21 when scoring targets. I assume we are expected to keep records slightly more detailed than that now?

 

I too have never counted past 21, after I count 21 I stop counting, say "You passed, sign print and date it." Then I retain the target.

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We have an Excell speadsheet that contains the student summary information and their qualifying score. We keep the numeric value, 23/30, 30/30 etc. of what they shoot when they qualify. Students also get their own file that contains any documents related to the their training. It's a pita but since it's electronic it's not that difficult to store. Entry just takes a little time.

Edited by JSharp
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I understand NRA Basic pistol is easier to teach since its set out for us instructors on what to teach but I have designed my own curriculum for the full 16 hours also and alternate. I don't want one day the NRA decides to go full scale with their online training idea and be stuck when ISP denies the new format. Anyone else using non nra straight 16?

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I've been reading this post, some of it I get, some is clear as mud.

 

My partner and I have an approved curriculum. We are teaching NRA BP on day 1, and covering legal and the range qual, drills, etc. on day 2. If we provide students with an NRA BP 8 hour certificate, and an ISP 8 hour certificate, we're good, right?

 

While we are frustrated with the constant changes, we appreciate the info that Molly and others provide. What we don't want is a "gotcha" moment from ISP when we know for a fact we've been teaching everything required and then some.

 

One more question....how are you guys documenting active military?

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One more question....how are you guys documenting active military?

 

We have simply been listing with a check mark that they showed proof a DD124.

 

While these new emergency rules are in effect, we will ask for a copy to keep with our records and ask student to redact social security number.

 

I do not plan on these emergency rules becoming permanent.

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One more question....how are you guys documenting active military?

 

 

 

We have simply been listing with a check mark that they showed proof a DD124.

 

While these new emergency rules are in effect, we will ask for a copy to keep with our records and ask student to redact social security number.

 

I do not plan on these emergency rules becoming permanent.

 

Active duty military members do not have a DD214. Active duty permanent change-of-station orders, a military ID, or letter/form signed by the member's commander would be the only options.

 

It is illegal to make a copy of a member's active duty military ID. However, many military members don't realize this and allow it anyway.

 

Of course, this is all predicated upon the member having an IL Driver's License or being a resident of SC, VA, or HI (with a permit/license issued from that state). :(

Edited by kwc
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To qualify my last paragraph--they can still take the training, and an instructor can grant the 8-hour military credit, but it won't do any good for the member until one of the residency requirements are met.

 

Please make sure the member is fully aware of these requirements before taking his or her money for the training.

Edited by kwc
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One more question....how are you guys documenting active military?

 

We have simply been listing with a check mark that they showed proof a DD124.

 

While these new emergency rules are in effect, we will ask for a copy to keep with our records and ask student to redact social security number.

 

 

 

 

I have been doing the same thing, verify the DD-214 and note that on my training record along with hits on qualifing target etc. And like you I really do not feel comfortable keeping someones SS number, if they would ever become a victim of identity theft that could be a bad situtation for the instructor. This is especially true after the revocation of certain instructors who apparently were less than honest.

I am an Army veteran so can only verify their rules as of when I served, 1969/1971. Instead of giving you a seperate and distinct service number your social security number was used. So the only way I can see you can redact the SS number is to redact the service number. This is something you might bring up to the ISP as a big reason for instructors to not retain a copy. Jim.

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I've been reading this post, some of it I get, some is clear as mud.

 

My partner and I have an approved curriculum. We are teaching NRA BP on day 1, and covering legal and the range qual, drills, etc. on day 2. If we provide students with an NRA BP 8 hour certificate, and an ISP 8 hour certificate, we're good, right?

 

While we are frustrated with the constant changes, we appreciate the info that Molly and others provide. What we don't want is a "gotcha" moment from ISP when we know for a fact we've been teaching everything required and then some.

 

One more question....how are you guys documenting active military?

 

Yes

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I've been using an excell spread sheet but it's done per class. I'm just going to add boxes to say live fire check, proof of prior 8 check, legal material check and so on. I'm not going to the moon for these people since they can't put two coherent sentences together in their stupid rules. I wish the people writing this crap would come and take a full 16 so they might have a slightest bit clue of what .... they're talking about and how "it" affects us. Geez us it's like hurdling cats

Edited by Molly B.
rules
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I've been using an excell spread sheet but it's done per class. I'm just going to add boxes to say live fire check, proof of prior 8 check, legal material check and so on. I'm not going to the moon for these people since they can't put two coherent sentences together in their stupid rules. I wish the people writing this crap would come and take a full 16 so they might have a slightest bit clue of what the f they're talking about and how their bs affects us. Geez us it's like hurdling cats

 

Oh how I wish Ol' Coach was here to see this one.

 

I'm referring to that last sentence Drylok.

Edited by papa
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  • 2 weeks later...

My Wife and I have been using an app on our phones or ipad called turboscan. It makes very very clear pdf files. That is how we have been making copies from the word go. I email them to myself and keep everything on an ironkey.

Read this and immediately installed Turbo Scan on my LG Android. What a savings in time and effort this will be. Was scanning documents in using an all-in-one printer. This is much faster. Will save me a ton of time at the beginning of class getting all those documents saved for verification. Great tip. Thanks!

 

It's a $.99 purchase, guys. No brainer.

 

Another suggestion. The Topaz signature pad, available here. Will be my next equipment purchase so I can get the class certificates signed by me and student while still in digital form. Otherwise we have to print it, sign it, and then scan it back into digital form to upload to ISP. $99.99.

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