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Official Signs Carry Force of Law Against The Owner?


TyGuy

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1) We kinda talked around this in the other posted threads, but I want to ask the question directly.

 

2) A business owner I was talking to about No Guns No Money asked me.

 

3) I know this might cause a crap storm.

 

If a business owner posts OFFICIAL no guns signs does it also apply to them? I know they won't call the police on themselves, but technically should they legally be disarmed in that location then?

 

My understanding is that it does apply to everyone there.

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1) We kinda talked around this in the other posted threads, but I want to ask the question directly.

 

2) A business owner I was talking to about No Guns No Money asked me.

 

3) I know this might cause a crap storm.

 

If a business owner posts OFFICIAL no guns signs does it also apply to them? I know they won't call the police on themselves, but technically should they legally be disarmed in that location then?

 

My understanding is that it does apply to everyone there.

 

 

I think it depends on whether or not the business owner is also the building owner.

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Or are you saying they would be carrying under the normal property owner/place of business exemption?

 

 

I am saying that if they own the business AND the building...they can carry irregardless of the sign.

 

I am saying that it is a very grey area if the own the business but do not own the building and the owner of the building posts the sign.

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Do renters have rights over their rented property or can a landlord dictate that it is a mandatory GFZ (such as in an apartment), and wouldn't the same philosophy apply to a business.

 

720 ILCS 5/21-1 UUW:

(a)(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a) (4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions...(goes on with the broken down, in a case yada, yada)

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The business in question was posted, but is no longer posted. I thanked her for removing the signs. She stated she is pro-carry, but never really said why she posted the signs. I wanted to keep it friendly so I didn't push it. If she reposts I'll dig deeper.

 

I did thank her by getting some biscuits and gravy. Yum

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The owner does not need a concealed carry permit to carry in his own business.

 

Therefor, he can prohibit CCL holders from carrying and still carry in his own business regardless of the signage. That is; no pun intended, his business.

 

I would also say that if the business is leasing the space and does not own the building, they still have the same rights inside that business and the wishes of the owner of the building hold no force of law.

 

The business might get upside down on their lease agreement, and if there was a no-guns clause in the lease for sure there would be trouble.

 

Too many questions and possibilities to go into every possible scenario, but in general, the business owner has the right to carry in his/her business.

 

best

 

mqqn

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The owner does not need a concealed carry permit to carry in his own business.

 

Therefor, he can prohibit CCL holders from carrying and still carry in his own business regardless of the signage. That is; no pun intended, his business.

 

I would also say that if the business is leasing the space and does not own the building, they still have the same rights inside that business and the wishes of the owner of the building hold no force of law.

 

The business might get upside down on their lease agreement, and if there was a no-guns clause in the lease for sure there would be trouble.

 

Too many questions and possibilities to go into every possible scenario, but in general, the business owner has the right to carry in his/her business.

 

best

 

mqqn

 

That's the way I see it, just like a landlord can put it in a lease agreement (for an apartment) that you will not have guns on property, the same would apply to the business world. Unless you signed a legal document stating otherwise, you are allowed to carry inside your place. If you go into a common area, that isn't your place of business and would therefore default back to the property owner.

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I don't think it is a problem for an owner to carry when he restricts others (other than my feelings being hurt).

 

If you own the property, you don't need a FCCL to carry anyhow. I try and find those exemptions.

 

That is true, under UUA. However, if the property/business owner is a licensee under the FCCA, there is no such exemption.

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Do renters have rights over their rented property or can a landlord dictate that it is a mandatory GFZ (such as in an apartment), and wouldn't the same philosophy apply to a business.

 

720 ILCS 5/21-1 UUW:

(a)(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a) (4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions...(goes on with the broken down, in a case yada, yada)

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with CCL holders and/or the FCCA.

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This is a section 10(g) exception.

 

(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the

licensee carries a concealed firearm except:

(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a

concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her

abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on

the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an

invitee with that person's permission;

(2) when the person is authorized to carry a firearm

under Section 24-2 of the Criminal Code of 2012, except

subsection (a-5) of that Section; or

(3) when the handgun is broken down in a

non-functioning state, is not immediately accessible, or

is unloaded and enclosed in a case.

 

Edited for fat finger. (Thanks mbrich)

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Do renters have rights over their rented property or can a landlord dictate that it is a mandatory GFZ (such as in an apartment), and wouldn't the same philosophy apply to a business.

 

720 ILCS 5/21-1 UUW:

(a)(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a) (4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions...(goes on with the broken down, in a case yada, yada)

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with CCL holders and/or the FCCA.

 

 

I am well aware of that, that is why I posted it. It is related back to the previous post I posted.

 

 

I don't think it is a problem for an owner to carry when he restricts others (other than my feelings being hurt).

 

If you own the property, you don't need a FCCL to carry anyhow. I try and find those exemptions.

 

That was the exemption I was looking for. I don't believe that one law will completely negate rights given to you by another law. Not worth the fight over it. Interpret away.

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This is a section 20(g) exception. (g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except: (1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission; (2) when the person is authorized to carry a firearm under Section 24-2 of the Criminal Code of 2012, except subsection (a-5) of that Section; or (3) when the handgun is broken down in a non-functioning state, is not immediately accessible, or is unloaded and enclosed in a case.

 

So essentially the Section 10(g) adds the exception given under UUW act. That's a good find, I overlooked that one.

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Might as well throw this in here. What if the owner of the property grants permission for another person to carry that is not the owner? That would seem legal under FOID but may not be legal under FCCL if that person given permission has a license to carry and there is official signage.

 

If the person given permission to carry under FOID and did not have a FCCL then it would seem he would be in the clear. Or am I wrong?

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some of what people are suggesting might be convenient but the law says what it says.

 

the uuw law has an exemption to specific provisions of the uuw law, but they only apply to those specific provisions of the uuw law.

 

what if you rented some space in a school building to use as a weekend flea market (or a craft show)? it is a fixed place of business so the uuw act exemption applies but the restriction on carry at schools also applies so you still can't carry.

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How is an exemption to 430 ILCS 66/10 going to help you avoid charges for violating 430 ILCS 66/65?

 

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

 

 

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You always had the right to carry at your own business, so the sign referring to the FCCA doesn't apply because you're not carrying under the authority of the FCCA.

 

I do not believe that that is how the law reads.

 

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You always had the right to carry at your own business, so the sign referring to the FCCA doesn't apply because you're not carrying under the authority of the FCCA.

I do not believe that that is how the law reads.

 

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

 

 

So you are saying the following scenario is the law:

You are a business owner -- You don't have a CCL -- You post ISP sign at your business -- You can legally carry because UUW gives you that right and FCCL doesn't apply to you since you have no license.

 

You are a business owner -- You DO have a CCL -- You post ISP sign at your business -- You CANNOT legally carry because FCCL restricts you since you have a license (doesn't matter that you own the joint).

 

Do I have that right?

 

I don't agree. I don't think that the law actually takes your rights away from you. I do however think that the law needs clarification (in all areas), as it is about a clear as mud, but in this instance, I'll stick to what I believe the law reads.

 

It's not something I plan to argue. I'm not going to change your mind nor do I have any desire to. That's the crazy part of Law. We all have our own interpretations, and even judges and regular folks who sit in the jury. They will interpret it and have their say. Then it gets appealed and up the latter it goes.

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I don't think it is a problem for an owner to carry when he restricts others (other than my feelings being hurt).

 

If you own the property, you don't need a FCCL to carry anyhow. I try and find those exemptions.

 

 

 

That is true, under UUA. However, if the property/business owner is a licensee under the FCCA, there is no such exemption.

This again? The FCCA amended the UUW/AUUW statute to provide for CCW licensing and set the rules. It did not abolish all other provisions under the FOID act. One is not either a FOID holder or a FCCL holder, one is both and can exercise his rights under either provision. If in your fixed place of business or land or abode, you can carry using any method you choose (concealed, mostly concealed, open, single point sling, etc.). By your logic, a licensee could be arrested for open carrying in your own house. Think about that and get a grip. You can be legal under the FOID Act OR you can be legal under under the FCCA at any given time. You do not need to be in compliance with both at all times.

 

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Bob, we are also talking about Section 10 of the FCCL, which essentially copied the UUW text and pasted it in the FCCL.

 

I'm not sure you could really consider weekend space to be "fixed place of business"

look closely. The section quoted only allows you to carry as a licensee under those conditions without having the license on your person.
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Bob, we are also talking about Section 10 of the FCCL, which essentially copied the UUW text and pasted it in the FCCL.

 

I'm not sure you could really consider weekend space to be "fixed place of business"

look closely. The section quoted only allows you to carry as a licensee under those conditions without having the license on your person.

 

Oh, I see what you are saying.

 

I will however, stand by my comment, that I would still have the right in my fixed place of business, (but not a weekend get up at the school) based on my comment in post 27 above.

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