howie Posted January 16, 2014 at 02:52 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 02:52 AM I did a quick search and didn't find anything on this....if it's already been addressed, could someone post the link. I was looking at the licensing requirements from the instructor's perspective. The applicant can be failed for not following orders of the instructor, not shooting a qualifying score, or posing a danger from careless handling. Here's my question; If you're instructing a class, and you have someone in that class who makes all your warning bells go off because of attitude, demeanor, being argumentative, etc, BUT passes all portions of the class.....can the instructor legally withhold their license? I also noticed instructors are not held immune from civil liability and that concerns me. I was talking with a buddy of mine who I plan on co-instructing with in the very near future, and that question dominated most of our conversation. Would love to know how the rest of you would deal with this.....would you fail them, pass them and contact your nearest LEO for a possible objection from them? Someone can look great on paper, but in person creep you out like nobody's business, sometimes from obvious signs....other times you just have that gut feeling. Your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyGuy Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:11 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:11 AM Oh god. This should be an interesting one to watch. Honestly....IDK what I'd do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguy Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:12 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:12 AM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howie Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:15 AM Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:15 AM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor.. That's what we were thinking, too.....but can we do that legally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguy Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:25 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:25 AM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor.. That's what we were thinking, too.....but can we do that legally?. I can't imagine why I could not do that. If someone was... Doing anything I thought was unsafe, disruptive or creepy... It is my prerogative to stop my relationship with such a person. Refunding class fees kinda makes it moot. No harm - no foul. Find someone else who can properly instruct you. Sorry for the waste of your time and mine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKoncepts aka CGS Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:28 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:28 AM I inform my students at the start of each and every class that I WILL ask them to leave for safety reasons and I set the ground rules for the day. I also inform them that if I feel they have a malicious or ill intent they will fail even if they pass. Later in the CLIC presentation I hammer this idea again, at a particular slide. I haven't had it yet but if I feel like a student has a screw loose, I will take them aside during break and let them know. If I think they deserve a warning during break I will let them know they are on thin ice. I did privately have to warn one student once who fell asleep and wanted to leave the room because it was too hot that he had to remain in the class and awake if he wanted to pass though occasional breaks were permissable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
really?_ILivehere Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:28 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:28 AM That's what we were thinking, too.....but can we do that legally? INAL, but I don't see why not. You're not obligated to train anyone. Provided you returned their money, you're done with the problem just the same as if you got a defective item and returned it to a retail location. As far as the "system" is concerned, it should work with or without you. Who's to say this student and another instructor don't get along like best friends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbrew Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:28 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:28 AM Sure you can. Where it will be tricky is if somebody decided to NOT refund the money. You are under zero obligation to provide training to anyone. I suppose if you really wanted to offer a good defense in case the wanker decides to sue you (anyone can sue anyone at anytime for anything), you could have each student sign a statement before you begin teaching that includes your rules for the classroom and that you, the instructor, at your sole discretion can dismiss anyone from the class for any reason. Add it to your waiver/release/indemnification. As an aside, I would never offer a specific reason for dismissing a student. I'd simply say something like, "you're disrupting the class. you are excused, here's your refund." Don't give them any ammunition to sue you. If you said "You're unsafe" you invite the guy to have you prove why. And potentially open yourself to slander. As long as we're all players lawyers, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxriver6 Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:28 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:28 AM What soundguy said, and wouldn't lose a minute of sleep! However if you gave a certificate to someone you felt shouldn't have one...how would you sleep then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguy Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:31 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:31 AM ... if you gave a certificate to someone you felt shouldn't have one...how would you sleep then?. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKoncepts aka CGS Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:31 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:31 AM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor..NO REFUNDS. That's also part of my speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguy Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:32 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:32 AM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor..NO REFUNDS. That's also part of my speech.. I could agree with this, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:39 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:39 AM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor.. That's what we were thinking, too.....but can we do that legally? this is also a normal business relationship subject to all the normal rules of doing business. the FCCA does not override any of them. best bet is to ask your lawyer. my guess is you are entitled to set your own rules as long as they do not violate whatever rules IL uses (is IL on the UCC?). I think you will have a hard time legally enforcing the idea that you can chose to kick someone out of your class without refunding his money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borgranta Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:44 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:44 AM Instructors like any other business owner has a right to refuse service to anyone for any reason or no reason. It would be advisable to give a refund or to not take payment to begin with. It would be fraudulent for an instructor to charge a fee for the training and than either refuse to provide the certificate despite passing and/or trying to object to the applicant without any evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdiver Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:45 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:45 AM I would do so without hesitation. Yes you can legally regect students. You bear the responsibility for their certs. You can be sued for anything, I believe too much in what we have worked for to put someone out there who my instinct tells me is looking to kill someone. Just like advanced courses, if you feel that there is a good probability that a student will end up on the other end of your gun, why the heck would you sharpen that edge? You have a moral responsibility here, (whether that fits your agenda or not) and I don't care if you have been in this game a month or a decade, if you have failed to see that aspect of use of force instruction....you are doing it wrong. Brother, I have a pretty good idea you knew all this before asking, so I'll go one step further. I have dismissed 5 applicants since my CCW coursework began. 4 for atrocious weapons handling on their day 2 only course....and one for the questions he was asking. Goodbye, do NOT return. I will sleep like a baby having made that decision. If it is the actual "talk" you fear, let me break it down for you.... (THIS IS NOT DONE IN FRONT OF THE CLASS) 1-- Its like a bandaid, quick and direct and then put it behind you.2--There is no negotiating, once you make a decision it is final.3--Do not lose your cool.4 --Record the details while they are fresh. Have a witness sign off if possible.5--Sleep like a baby Rocco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borgranta Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:58 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:58 AM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor..NO REFUNDS. That's also part of my speech.By refusing a refund for a service that was not rendered you could be charged with theft and/or fraud plus if they paid with a credit card the credit card company may go after you as well or if they paid with a bank account the bank could go after you and worse yet the disgruntled person may report you to Madigan which would enable her to make instructors look like criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William8004 Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:17 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:17 AM CYA... Document everything. Log strange behavior. Keep it for future reference. If you dismiss a student, do it before you get to the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:17 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:17 AM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor..NO REFUNDS. That's also part of my speech.By refusing a refund for a service that was not rendered you could be charged with theft and/or fraud plus if they paid with a credit card the credit card company may go after you as well or if they paid with a bank account the bank could go after you and worse yet the disgruntled person may report you to Madigan which would enable her to make instructors look like criminals. The instructors I've spoken with have told me they'd rather take the loss than deal with giving the problem any legitimate complaint in the eyes of the state. Of course, their home states are much clearer in stating that certificate issuance is completely at the discretion of the instructor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtr100 Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:48 AM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:48 AM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor.. That's what we were thinking, too.....but can we do that legally? yup - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSharp Posted January 16, 2014 at 12:46 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 12:46 PM We reserve the right to refuse service... We have a short discussion about this early on day one. I've never had a problem and don't expect any in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoktorPaimon Posted January 16, 2014 at 01:40 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 01:40 PM I did privately have to warn one student once who fell asleep and wanted to leave the room because it was too hot that he had to remain in the class and awake if he wanted to pass though occasional breaks were permissable. You had someone fall asleep? I remember how often you took breaks...jeez... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WtJen Posted January 16, 2014 at 01:58 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 01:58 PM There were a few in our CC class that made me a bit nervous at the range. One of them didn't know how to load his pistol. But he was helped and did qualify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoverGunner Posted January 16, 2014 at 02:03 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 02:03 PM If I had a problem student with whom I became uncomfortable, I would dismiss them as soon as I made such determination, refund the course fees and suggest they find a different instructor..NO REFUNDS. That's also part of my speech.. I could agree with this, too.No Refunds periodI am not wasting my time and space . Someone above mentioned being sued by a Failed student . Is it possible a lawyer would take the case ? Yes . Is it probable a Lawyer would take the Case ? No . There is not enough money for most Lawyers to even make it worth the effort . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borgranta Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:08 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 03:08 PM @DoverGunnerIf you refuse to refunds than Lisa Madigan may make trouble for you. You have a right to refuse service to anyone but keeping the money for a service that refuse to provide after pocketing the money constitutes fraud and theft IMO. You could have a non-refundable deposit of $50 or so paid upfront to reserve the place in the class without flirting with law breaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getzapped Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:10 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:10 PM Someone can look great on paper, but in person creep you out like nobody's business, sometimes from obvious signs....other times you just have that gut feeling. Your thoughts?I get this feeling daily! People come in to pick up their firearm transfer or purchase and they seem a bit off! As an FFL I can terminate a transaction, but if the person passes the FTIP, I really can't stop them from purchasing unless there is a good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacticalVideo Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:50 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:50 PM Someone can look great on paper, but in person creep you out like nobody's business, sometimes from obvious signs....other times you just have that gut feeling. Your thoughts?I get this feeling daily! People come in to pick up their firearm transfer or purchase and they seem a bit off! As an FFL I can terminate a transaction, but if the person passes the FTIP, I really can't stop them from purchasing unless there is a good reason.You can refuse to sell to anyone for any reason. My BATF official and I discussed this at length the other day. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getzapped Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:59 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 04:59 PM Someone can look great on paper, but in person creep you out like nobody's business, sometimes from obvious signs....other times you just have that gut feeling. Your thoughts?I get this feeling daily! People come in to pick up their firearm transfer or purchase and they seem a bit off! As an FFL I can terminate a transaction, but if the person passes the FTIP, I really can't stop them from purchasing unless there is a good reason.You can refuse to sell to anyone for any reason. My BATF official and I discussed this at length the other day. Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI know that. It won't look very good if I start rejecting people because they look funny, smell funny or talk funny! That would be a quick way to go out of business. If someone started talking about harming someone or gave me reason to believe that, then you better believe I would teminate the transaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carry Posted January 16, 2014 at 05:29 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 05:29 PM Also, think of the other students. They may be relieved that you quietly dismissed the problem student. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad O. Posted January 16, 2014 at 06:01 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 06:01 PM Unsafe firearms handeling, or being way too eager to use your gun to end another human life is one thing but, because someone looks funny? My pastor looks "funny" (bald head and earring). But, then.... I guess its all relative. I'm from a rural area NorthWest of Peoria and I suppose some of the guys I took a class with would probably give an instructor up north around Chicago a "deliverance" rapie kind of vibe, and to be honest I'd feel uncomfortable if my fellow students were of the baggy pant inner-city varity (I know that kinda sounds bad. I don't mean anything racial there) But is that the kind of thing you guys are talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdpsc Posted January 16, 2014 at 06:11 PM Share Posted January 16, 2014 at 06:11 PM "deliverance" rapie kind of vibe Now I know how to describe TyGuy to people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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