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Walmart Concealed Carry prohibited sign


mjw45

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So after 6 days, 12 pages, and 355 posts, we are still at odds with each other as to just what this sign means from a legal standpoint. And folks around here are not neophytes when it comes to gun laws in Illinois...

 

Imagine the average Joe Schmo who has owns one gun, a new permit, and darn little knowledge or experience.... How many of them will cross Walmart's threshold...??

 

Probably all of them, because the sign says it doesn't apply to them.

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So after 6 days, 12 pages, and 355 posts, we are still at odds with each other as to just what this sign means from a legal standpoint. And folks around here are not neophytes when it comes to gun laws in Illinois...

 

Imagine the average Joe Schmo who has owns one gun, a new permit, and darn little knowledge or experience.... How many of them will cross Walmart's threshold...??

 

Probably all of them, because the sign says it doesn't apply to them.

 

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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Section 1231.150 Prohibited Areas

 

Section 65 of the Act specifies areas where concealed carry of firearms is prohibited and requires posting of those areas.

 

a ) A template for signs required pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Act shall be made available by the Department on its website.

 

b ) Owners of prohibited areas may utilize signage larger in size than the template provided at their discretion. If prohibited areas use a larger sign, the template provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the larger sign.

 

c ) Prohibited areas may include additional language on their signs. If prohibited areas include additional language, the template provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the sign.

 

d ) The required signs shall be placed in such a manner as to provide persons entering the prohibited area reasonable notice that they are entering a prohibited area and may not carry a concealed firearm, pursuant to the Act, therein.

 

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https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/ISPFaq.aspx

 

What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign?

 

This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies.

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https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/ISPFaq.aspx

 

What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign?

 

This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies.

 

But they don't specify about a text with the caveat that it only applies to employees.

 

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Section 1231.150 Prohibited Areas

 

Section 65 of the Act specifies areas where concealed carry of firearms is prohibited and requires posting of those areas.

 

a ) A template for signs required pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Act shall be made available by the Department on its website.

 

b ) Owners of prohibited areas may utilize signage larger in size than the template provided at their discretion. If prohibited areas use a larger sign, the template provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the larger sign.

 

c ) Prohibited areas may include additional language on their signs. If prohibited areas include additional language, the template provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the sign.

 

d ) The required signs shall be placed in such a manner as to provide persons entering the prohibited area reasonable notice that they are entering a prohibited area and may not carry a concealed firearm, pursuant to the Act, therein.

 

Help an old , tired man out here please. Does B ) mean that if they use a larger sign , they have to put the legal size sign on the larger sign to make it legal?

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So after 6 days, 12 pages, and 355 posts, we are still at odds with each other as to just what this sign means from a legal standpoint. And folks around here are not neophytes when it comes to gun laws in Illinois...

 

Imagine the average Joe Schmo who has owns one gun, a new permit, and darn little knowledge or experience.... How many of them will cross Walmart's threshold...??

 

Probably all of them, because the sign says it doesn't apply to them.

 

I disagree - powerful as Walmart is they can't change IL law - maybe I;m a wuss but don't plan on being the crash test dummy

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Section 1231.150 Prohibited Areas

 

Section 65 of the Act specifies areas where concealed carry of firearms is prohibited and requires posting of those areas.

 

a ) A template for signs required pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Act shall be made available by the Department on its website.

 

b ) Owners of prohibited areas may utilize signage larger in size than the template provided at their discretion. If prohibited areas use a larger sign, the template provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the larger sign.

 

c ) Prohibited areas may include additional language on their signs. If prohibited areas include additional language, the template provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the sign.

 

d ) The required signs shall be placed in such a manner as to provide persons entering the prohibited area reasonable notice that they are entering a prohibited area and may not carry a concealed firearm, pursuant to the Act, therein.

 

Help an old , tired man out here please. Does B ) mean that if they use a larger sign , they have to put the legal size sign on the larger sign to make it legal?

 

that is the intent as (I think molley) brought from the ISP - kinda like the old Piciture in Picture tv's

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No, it means whatever the responding officer believes it says. The sign clearly states that it is pursuant to 430 ILCS 66/65. That law applies to ALL people in Illinois. Walmart can't change state law.

 

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No they can't, but they also do not have to sign a complaint.

Because it is private property, not a specific listed prohibited place, I believe the property owner/agent would have to sign a complaint.

Sounds like Walmart does not intend to do this.

 

So another what happens if another customer calls the police? The will detain you but not arrest if Walmart won't sign a complaint? Can the customer sign a complaint?

 

Either way, the hassle of being detained is not worth it to me.

 

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No, it means whatever the court would rule it means in such a case, should there be some "responding officer" for some reason. It would mean whatever the business owner or representative would explain to the officer it means. Before there would be a responding officer, there would have to be something for the officer to respond to. Unless the business made the call to the police, there would be nothing to respond to.

 

It's illogical to believe a business would have specific text explaining that the sign only applies to employees or vendors, and then going against that text to call and report someone discovered carrying. If that were the case, the signage would be posted without the additional text.

 

The reasoning for listing 430 ILCS 66/65 is the fact that it is included in the graphic available from ISP.

 

What about other costumers? 911 call, "man with a gun at Walmart". Is it illogical to think that LEO may respond in full tac gear?

 

Have you read the ISP FAQ? It clearly says that business who wish to disarm their employees only should NOT post the ISP sign since doing so causes they entire property to be prohibited.

 

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No, it means whatever the responding officer believes it says. The sign clearly states that it is pursuant to 430 ILCS 66/65. That law applies to ALL people in Illinois. Walmart can't change state law.

 

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No they can't, but they also do not have to sign a complaint.

Because it is private property, not a specific listed prohibited place, I believe the property owner/agent would have to sign a complaint.

Sounds like Walmart does not intend to do this.

 

So another what happens if another customer calls the police? The will detain you but not arrest if Walmart won't sign a complaint? Can the customer sign a complaint?

 

Either way, the hassle of being detained is not worth it to me.

 

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As I understand it nobody needs to 'sign a complaint' - officer arrives - finds the 'perp' / FCCL holder - determines the sign is valid (in his opinion) - hooks up FCCL holder (now perp) and awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy we go

 

He might also cut you loose but I don't want to be crash test dummy for this

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https://ccl4illinois...lic/ISPFaq.aspx

 

What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign?

 

This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies.

 

We have an answer! :clap: :clap: :clap:

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No, it means whatever the responding officer believes it says. The sign clearly states that it is pursuant to 430 ILCS 66/65. That law applies to ALL people in Illinois. Walmart can't change state law.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

Ironically, if the sign did not reference the specific FCCA code the off duty officer would be in violation of the property owners policies.

 

My question is the graphic the whole 4x6 area of the mandated content or just the circle section? After all if it is printed from a JPEG or gif the whole thing is a graphic.

 

Compliant signage should have no wiggle room. There should be no doubt or confusion.

 

I will say if a business posts a confusing non standard sign and I was arrested there would be a civil suite for sure.

 

I will say I can foresee any person arrested under a optional GFZ posting calling the owners and CEO's into court to testify to determine if the signs were lawfully posted by the appropriate authority and not just plasters up by a rouge anti-gunner or employee.

 

 

 

 

 

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I think some of you guys are over reacting on this. I for one appreciate that this sign only applies to employees and vendors. The question of the sign not being legal isn't valid because it speaks of company policy for their employees. It states on duty employees and vendors, so I'm assuming employees off the clock are good. I'm not surprised they are banning carry for employees, they already have a policy banning them from physically detaining anyone shop lifting and they probably don't want their employees walking the isles with a firearm and risk offending those who don't like guns. They are posted on the front doors because many of the vendors come in the front. I think we should all thank walmart for supporting our right to carry in their stores. If we make a bunch of waves about it then they might just ban everyone.

 

 

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Maybe. But you can see how much confusion this is causing. It would not hurt asking corporate for a clarification.

 

I don't suspect we will have any miscommunication south of I-80...But I do suspect that there could be an issue with some "anti" calling the cops on someone as soon as they see something poking out from clothing.

 

All this sign is is litigation waiting to come crashing down on some poor guy (or gal) that can't afford their day in court... Just so the "anti" crowd can further their misguided narrative.

 

Not sure how this can be confusing? It's in clear easy to read English. Very clearly states applies to ON DUTY EMPLOYEES & VENDORS ONLY. Why is everyone reading more into this than it is. ISP also clearly states the requirements for the NO CARRY signage to be valid. This sign posted at Wal-Mart clearly does not meet ISP requirements. This sign at Wal-mart means ZERO to CCW holders.

 

That is what is being debated. I think the sign does comply with the ISP regulations. If you want to hang your hat one the missing black boarder, go ahead...

 

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Section 1231.150 Prohibited Areas

 

Section 65 of the Act specifies areas where concealed carry of firearms is prohibited and requires posting of those areas.

 

a ) A template for signs required pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Act shall be made available by the Department on its website.

 

b ) Owners of prohibited areas may utilize signage larger in size than the template provided at their discretion. If prohibited areas use a larger sign, the template provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the larger sign.

 

c ) Prohibited areas may include additional language on their signs. If prohibited areas include additional language, the template provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the sign.

 

d ) The required signs shall be placed in such a manner as to provide persons entering the prohibited area reasonable notice that they are entering a prohibited area and may not carry a concealed firearm, pursuant to the Act, therein.

 

Help an old , tired man out here please. Does B ) mean that if they use a larger sign , they have to put the legal size sign on the larger sign to make it legal?

 

Yes. You are correct. They can make a larger sign any size that suits them but they must include the uniform 4 x 6 template (image) somewhere on that larger sign. If they do not meet this requirement it is not a legal sign. They Wallyworld sign in question appears to me to be 8 x 11 and definitely does not include the 4 x 6 template on it. By simply increasing the size of the image makes this no longer uniform. This is why I argue that it is not an official gun buster amongst other reasons as well.

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