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Walmart Concealed Carry prohibited sign

mjw45

By mjw45
in Illinois Right to Keep and Carry

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Bushy223 Member

Bushy223

Posted
Posted

Uncle Harley

 

Go to the link you posted.

 

Go to upper-left pull down list and click on FAQ's.

 

The top section is titled Enforcement, go to the 6th link about employers/employees.

 

Wally has tens, if not hundreds of lawyers on payroll. This type of thing about legal signage and such is for lawyers to do. or at least supervise, because it can affect the bottom line.

 

My assessment is this sign was not researched by, created by, reviewed by, or approved by a single one of them. In my opinion, this came from a non-lawyer (upstate) regional/state level manager controlling Illinois, who thought he/she was doing good. Nothing like this happened in Wisconsin, which went down this road last year. This did not come from Bentonville AR (unless I'm wrong :^) )

 

Bushy

 

Edited for typo and to add thought.

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Teufel Hunden Member

Teufel Hunden

Posted
Posted

I've read through this entire thread and I've yet to see anyone make the following point. Forgive me if I missed it, the conversation does span 9 pages now. I've seen people reference their own opinions, the intent of WalMart, the intent of ISP and the intent of the Legislature. Frankly, none of these things matter. What a judge interprets the law to say matters. That has the force of law.

 

 

People are arrested every day by officers only to later have the charges dropped. People go to trial and beat criminal charges. Occasionally, innocent people are convicted of crimes they should not be. Clearly the best outcome for someone is to not be arrested or charged in the first place. While the chances of being arrested, charged and convicted in this situation may be small, the ramifications of such a conviction are enormous. Why would anyone decide to take that risk instead of just speaking with WalMart representatives about their concerns? I don't doubt that criminalizing concealed carry for their customers is NOT the intention of Illinois WalMarts. It has been well documented that WalMart can accomplish their intended goal in a manner that ensures no risk of criminal prosecution for their customers. There isn't a prohibitive cost associated with changing the signs that have gone up. it seems logical to bring this to the attention of WalMart and give them a chance to make a change. Changing the sign is a much better outcome than requiring someone to eventually spend the time, money and resources on beating a criminal charge.

 

Edited because I fat fingered my phone.

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Elderberry Member

Elderberry

Posted
Posted

I've been reluctant to stick my toe in these waters but it has been a very interesting topic to follow. Lots of good debate points on both sides of the question.

 

Personally, I will be very reluctant to enter any business that has a sign that shows a handgun with a line through it, even if the sign does not appear to meet the ISP requirements. The reason I will be reluctant has nothing to do with the apparent intent of the business owner but rather the uncertainty of how other patrons will react and also the uncertainty of how a responding officer(s) will react to a 911 cell phone call of a "man with a gun" (should I print or momentarily show), not to mention the states attorney's office should I be arrested. And I think we must all assume there will be plenty of folks out there who are willing to make that phone call and not all of them are our friends...

 

I don't care about Walmart. I seldom ever enter one of their establishments (unlike my wife) but here is my biggest concern with this issue. Walmart is simply the most currently visible example. But I fear we will see a lot of this over the next year until the new law gets sorted out by the courts and/or legislature, and it is that potential for proliferation that concerns me the most. I think it is very important to get this resolved through corporate offices and would hope once it's resolved (in our favor) that it gets some media time...

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Uncle Harley Member

Uncle Harley

Posted
Posted

Ok so I e-maild ISP and here is the conversation as follows, you will have to read from the bottom up to follow the conversation. they aren't coming out and saying it, but it appears to not be a legal sign.

 

 

This is what it reads on the concealed carry website.

 

NOTE: When printing the sign, please ensure the black borders surrounding the "no firearms" symbol measure 4 inches from top to bottom and 6 inches from left to right.

 

From: "Harley Craig" <Redacted >

To: <CCW_Illinois@isp.state.il.us>,

Date: 01/10/2014 12:24 PM

Subject: RE: sinage question

 

So that is not a legal sign I sent in question ? It has been a

discussion

I have been involved in concerning some local walmart's Some people think it's not a legal sign, and others are afraid that although the intention of Walmart is clear that it's not meant for everyone , that they in advertantly posted so nobody could enter, I'm trying to confirm or dispel some people's paranoia.

Thanks,

Harley

-----Original Message-----

From: CCW_Illinois@isp.state.il.us [mailto:CCW_Illinois@isp.state.il.us]

Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 11:29 AM

To: Harley Craig

Subject: Re: sinage question

 

https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/CCWProhibitedAreaSign.pdf

 

From: "Harley Craig" <redacted >

To: <CCW_ILLINOIS@isp.state.il.us>,

Date: 01/10/2014 10:53 AM

Subject: sinage question

 

Is the below attached sign a legal sign that applies to everyone?

 

http://allguntraining.com/images/walmart.pdf

 

Thanks,

Harley

 

 

 

I then followed up with the question " since I am neither a walmart employee nor a vendor, when I receive my permit, will I be in violation of any laws if I enter a store with said sign?

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bobapunk Member

bobapunk

Posted
Posted
I'm new here so you can just bypass my $0.02 --

 

All of this is fairly clear when visiting the FAQ on ISP's IL Concealed Carry License Page.

 

What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign?

This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies.

 

For me, I wouldn't shop where the sign is posted, as it makes it a GFZ. I think from just reading the FAQ I can easily make that determination. On the other hand, I haven't visited my WM this week to see if it is posted, and I'm one to bet that it is as it seems to be the trend in the Chicagoland area (as it seems to be for most of the state now).

 

Heading back into my corner to await the abuse that is sure to follow.

 

:clap:

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

 

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bobapunk Member

bobapunk

Posted
Posted

The fact that the isp says the sign in its entirety will be 4 in by 6 in makes this 8.5 x .11 sheet of printer paper a non compliant sign

 

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

wrong wrong wrong...

 

 

This is what the ISP says about signs:

 

619 Section 1231.150 Prohibited Areas
620
621 Section 65 of the Act specifies areas where concealed carry of firearms is prohibited and requires
622 posting of those areas.
623
624 a) A template for signs required pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Act shall be made
625 available by the Department on its website.
626
627  Owners of prohibited areas may utilize signage larger in size than the template
628 provided at their discretion. If prohibited areas use a larger sign, the template
629 provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by
630 the Act somewhere on the larger sign.
631
632 c) Prohibited areas may include additional language on their signs. If prohibited
633 areas include additional language, the template provided shall be reproduced no
634 smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the sign.
635
636 d) The required signs shall be placed in such a manner as to provide persons entering
637 the prohibited area reasonable notice that they are entering a prohibited area and
638 may not carry a concealed firearm, pursuant to the Act, therein.

 

Their rules clearly state that the sign may be larger than 4x6, may be a part of a larger sign, and may contain additional language. However, the ISP did not give the authority to change the meaning of the sign. Again, 430 ILCS 66/65 applies to EVERYONE in the state in ILLINOIS, not only to "On duty Wal-Mart employees and vendors."

 

so based on this new information, your gripe should be with ISP and not walmart because ISP has clearly not made that information abailable on their website which is what I quoted from that says the sign shall be 4x6 inches and shall not contain any additional text. How is a random place of business supposed to know this unless they have insider information like you apparently do? The general public has the law, the law states ISP shall make the rules pertaining to the standardization of the sign, so when you go to the isp website to find said rules you find nothing of this. In walmart's mind and based off of the information they were provided by the ISP, they were not posting a legal sign, and I don't think you will find one prosecuter who would charge you based on that information. Still waiting on a confirmation from ISP wether or not it's a legal sign.

 

The approved rules do not get "officially" filled for another week or so. After that, I would expect the ISP to update their information.

 

Remember 2 weeks after the trailer bill was enacted? The ISP s still did know about DOC prior credit even though the trailer bill was very clear.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

 

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bobapunk Member

bobapunk

Posted
Posted

 

That is not what the rules say, not at all...

 

Let me help you (pay close attention to lines 627-630):

 

619 Section 1231.150 Prohibited Areas
620
621 Section 65 of the Act specifies areas where concealed carry of firearms is prohibited and requires
622 posting of those areas.
623
624 a) A template for signs required pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Act shall be made
625 available by the Department on its website.
626
627  Owners of prohibited areas may utilize signage larger in size than the template
628 provided at their discretion. If prohibited areas use a larger sign, the template
629 provided shall be reproduced no smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by
630 the Act somewhere on the larger sign.
631
632 c) Prohibited areas may include additional language on their signs. If prohibited
633 areas include additional language, the template provided shall be reproduced no
634 smaller than the 4" x 6" dimension required by the Act somewhere on the sign.
635
636 d) The required signs shall be placed in such a manner as to provide persons entering
637 the prohibited area reasonable notice that they are entering a prohibited area and
638 may not carry a concealed firearm, pursuant to the Act, therein.

It is you that should pay a little more attention to lines 627-630.

What do you think is the purpose of this paragraph? If it was simply to state that one could make a sign larger than 4x6 then why not just state that very thing? Why all of the unneeded language?

 

The purpose of lines 627-630 are to ensure that all signs are uniform and easily identifiable by licensee's. If I wanted to make and post a very large sign 3' x 3' that read "We Prohibit the Carrying of Firearms" it would not have the force of law. If I wanted to post a sign the resembled the ISP template that measured 3' x 3' it would not have the force of law. If I posted either of the aforementioned signs and reproduced the 4" x 6" template somewhere on that sign, either would have the force of law. The purpose is uniformity so we are all looking for the same exact sign where ever we go. Otherwise it can be too easy to miss. I don't know about the rest of you but I do not spend my time reading every single sign every place I go.

 

That is my interpretation of the law and until I see differently from ISP or the legislature that is what I am sticking with. If I am arrested, I will gladly be the test case and report back the outcome here on the forum.

 

I do have one other question for those of you who believe that the sign pictured in this thread prevents you from carrying at Wallyworld. Are you saying that if I posted my business that I no longer have the power to grant you or anyone else I deem fit to carry with special permission? Let me ask this another way. If I posted my business with an official gun buster sign and my friend wanted to come over, are you saying that I could no longer give my friend permission to carry as long as the gun buster sign was hanging on my door? Really?

 

Your sour attitude is unwanted and frankly, not helpful at all. The ISP regulations seem to clearly say that a legit sign can be larger than than 4""*6" and that the specified image may be scaled up in size.

 

BTW, I am not trying to give you or your friend advice. However, if you post the sign, I don't see anything in the law providing for special permission or exemption. Your buddy would be committing a crime. The question then would be, are you going to report him? Probably not, but what about another customer?

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

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bobapunk Member

bobapunk

Posted
Posted
Ok so I e-maild ISP and here is the conversation as follows, you will have to read from the bottom up to follow the conversation. they aren't coming out and saying it, but it appears to not be a legal sign.

 

 

This is what it reads on the concealed carry website.

 

NOTE: When printing the sign, please ensure the black borders surrounding the "no firearms" symbol measure 4 inches from top to bottom and 6 inches from left to right.

 

From: "Harley Craig" <Redacted >

To: <CCW_Illinois@isp.state.il.us>,

Date: 01/10/2014 12:24 PM

Subject: RE: sinage question

 

So that is not a legal sign I sent in question ? It has been a

discussion

I have been involved in concerning some local walmart's Some people think it's not a legal sign, and others are afraid that although the intention of Walmart is clear that it's not meant for everyone , that they in advertantly posted so nobody could enter, I'm trying to confirm or dispel some people's paranoia.

Thanks,

Harley

-----Original Message-----

From: CCW_Illinois@isp.state.il.us [mailto:CCW_Illinois@isp.state.il.us]

Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 11:29 AM

To: Harley Craig

Subject: Re: sinage question

 

https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/CCWProhibitedAreaSign.pdf

 

From: "Harley Craig" <redacted >

To: <CCW_ILLINOIS@isp.state.il.us>,

Date: 01/10/2014 10:53 AM

Subject: sinage question

 

Is the below attached sign a legal sign that applies to everyone?

 

http://allguntraining.com/images/walmart.pdf

 

Thanks,

Harley

 

 

 

I then followed up with the question " since I am neither a walmart employee nor a vendor, when I receive my permit, will I be in violation of any laws if I enter a store with said sign?

 

So, because the graphic doesn't have a boarder, it does not carry the force of law? Seems like a weak point to hang your hat (and criminal record) on...

 

Why don't you show that sign to some officers on the street and see if they would still arrest you for carrying there?

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

 

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Uncle Harley Member

Uncle Harley

Posted
Posted

Unlce Harley, so ILSP won't confirm one way or the other?

 

I don't see their responses in what you posted.

 

 

First reply was just this link with no additional text : https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/CCWProhibitedAreaSign.pdf

 

 

Second reply was " This is what it reads on the concealed carry website.

 

 

NOTE: When printing the sign, please ensure the black borders surrounding the "no firearms" symbol measure 4 inches from top to bottom and 6 inches from left to right.

 

 

 

So to put it all in order:

 

 

Me: Is the below attached sign a legal sign that applies to everyone?

 

 

http://allguntraining.com/images/walmart.pdf

 

 

 

ISP: https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/CCWProhibitedAreaSign.pdf

 

 

Me: So that is not a legal sign I sent in question ? It has been a discussionI have been involved in concerning some local walmarts Some people think it's not a legal sign, and others are afraid that although the intention of Walmart is clear that it's not meant for everyone , that they in advertantly posted so nobody could enter, I'm trying to confirm or dispel some people's paranoia

 

 

ISP : This is what it reads on the concealed carry website.

 

 

NOTE: When printing the sign, please ensure the black borders surrounding the "no firearms" symbol measure 4 inches from top to bottom and 6 inches from left to right.

 

 

That was the end of their response.

 

 

 

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Elderberry Member

Elderberry

Posted
Posted

Scuttlebutt from the Walmart manager is that employees may not carry at Walmart when NOT working.

 

Ummmmm.......is that an issue?

 

Interesting thought.... Taking Walmart out of the issue, I find it difficult to envision a situation where an employer prohibits an employee to bring a firearm onto company property as a condition of employment and then saying it's ok when you aren't on the clock....

 

This could get very interesting...

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Len S Member

Len S

Posted
Posted
Condition of employment. I work in a hospital, I know that while other people can leave their firearm locked in their car, I as an employee have to follow policy which states that employees may not have firearms on the premises even in their car. While I cannot be arrested for it I can be fired for it.
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