wtr100 Posted September 5, 2013 at 07:54 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 07:54 PM I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKoncepts aka CGS Posted September 5, 2013 at 07:56 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 07:56 PM This is why I posted the other day about scanning copies of DD-214's or other documentation of previous training. Since the law specifies INSTRUCTORS as well as the ISP "accepting" previous training, it certainly seems that the ISP will shift that burden to the instructors because they can. Let's take a look at this logically though. Will there be forged documents? Yes. There always will be. If you own a nightclub and an underage kid gets in with a really good fake ID, you aren't going to lose your license if you did your due diligence. We are not expected to be document experts. At the end of the day, I will cover myself by: 1) keeping a copy of the document I was provided by the applicant2) not letting any student even get to the range who doesn't show proficiency in safe gun-handling in the classroom portion. That's all I can do, and all i can be expected to do. <cough cough cough> waiver <cough> indemnification <cough cough > cya <cough cough > Excuse me, something came on all of a sudden. Must be allergies to the bull kaka from the ISP. Seriously though go back to the other thread where I was talking about waivers and indemnification. Not such a bad idea after all? Get copies of their certs, have them sign an agreement taking responsibility for falsified documents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSA Posted September 5, 2013 at 07:56 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 07:56 PM This is why I posted the other day about scanning copies of DD-214's or other documentation of previous training. Since the law specifies INSTRUCTORS as well as the ISP "accepting" previous training, it certainly seems that the ISP will shift that burden to the instructors because they can. Let's take a look at this logically though. Will there be forged documents? Yes. There always will be. If you own a nightclub and an underage kid gets in with a really good fake ID, you aren't going to lose your license if you did your due diligence. We are not expected to be document experts. At the end of the day, I will cover myself by: 1) keeping a copy of the document I was provided by the applicant2) not letting any student even get to the range who doesn't show proficiency in safe gun-handling in the classroom portion. That's all I can do, and all i can be expected to do.Pretty much nailed it that's all we can do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKoncepts aka CGS Posted September 5, 2013 at 07:57 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 07:57 PM I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rulesI don't see why they can't just come out with yes and no answers, as we have been asking very specific questions. Nobody in government wants the liability and just wants to pass the buck to the instructors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:02 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:02 PM OK, I have read this thing 2 or 3 times now. Under 1231.50, I have a couple of concerns. There are several contradictions. Under . The Certification form shall only be completed for those applicants who the Instructor trained in person for whom the Instructor can verify: Under d). For those applicants who provided proof of up to 8 hours of training already completed toward the 16 hours training, the Instructor shall: Under e). The Instructor may certify up to 8 hours of prior training, Does anyone else see the contradictory statements in the above 3 highlighted areas from the Emergency Rules ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmyers Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:02 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:02 PM With four hours of range time we could shoot a complete six stage IDPA match and have time left over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyGuy Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:05 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:05 PM With four hours of range time we could shoot a complete six stage IDPA match and have time left over.HB whatever whatever had allowances for such matches to count towards recert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobapunk Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:07 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:07 PM So does this look like NRA basic pistol will be counted? As instructor per 1231.10 Definitions it specifically says National Rifle Association of America It does not mention any course by name but it says at least 4 hours of In-person training and live fire so it seems to me NRA Basic Pistol instructor is good to goI really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rules I was thinking this same thing... Hunter safety does not require live fire, the ISP does... What, I just read the EMERGENCY RULES top to bottom and did not see a requirement for the prior 8 hrs to have included live fire... Did I miss it? I see they still have not defined "public storage" or the "4" rules for safe gun handling... (I assume they mean the NRA's 3 + always treat as if loaded...) Applicants "must apply for a FCCL" I guess all of those out-of-state instructors are not facing even higher fees... I think the ISP is insinuating that all approved instructors will have their "FCCL" by April 16th, 2014 - or else they will have a lot of Instructors to revoke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:07 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:07 PM I also wonder if they will come out with the "Department approved cirriculum" which should be a list of courses that would apply so we know exactly what is acceptable or not !! That would be under 1231.50 1 and 2. Their words not mine !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtr100 Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:08 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:08 PM I also wonder if they will come out with the "Department approved cirriculum" which should be a list of courses that would apply so we know exactly what is acceptable or not !! That would be under 1231.50 1 and 2. Their words not mine !! I would not hold your breath ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:11 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:11 PM MANDATING 4 hours of range time is dangerous for both students as well as instructors. If the law only requires 30 rounds of live fire, there's NO REASON for 4 hours on the range. Review this document on lead contamination on the gun range. http://www.utexas.edu/safety/ehs/msds/lead.html Here's a footnote from the article. This article is respectfully dedicated to the memory of ASLET member Sergeant Thomas Kelly, who died on Sept. 17, 1989. Sergeant Kelly died of acute respiratory failure after being exposed daily for two weeks to lead and associated gases on the firing range. It is the author's sincere hope that the information presented herein will contribute to preventing further such tragic losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKoncepts aka CGS Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:16 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:16 PM MANDATING 4 hours of range time is dangerous for both students as well as instructors. If the law only requires 30 rounds of live fire, there's NO REASON for 4 hours on the range. Review this document on lead contamination on the gun range. http://www.utexas.ed.../msds/lead.html Here's a footnote from the article. This article is respectfully dedicated to the memory of ASLET member Sergeant Thomas Kelly, who died on Sept. 17, 1989. Sergeant Kelly died of acute respiratory failure after being exposed daily for two weeks to lead and associated gases on the firing range. It is the author's sincere hope that the information presented herein will contribute to preventing further such tragic losses. You know what their answer will be? http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4002/4641858518_248bfeff14_o.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:18 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:18 PM I see they still have not defined "public storage" or the "4" rules for safe gun handling... (I assume they mean the NRA's 3 + always treat as if loaded...) I have to assume they are referring to Col. Cooper's rules as modified for the MFT: 1) All firearms are always loaded2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not ready and willing to destroy3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target4) Be sure of your target and its surroundings Although they also add 5) Never handle firearms under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Applicants "must apply for a FCCL" I guess all of those out-of-state instructors are not facing even higher fees... While I can understand them wanting you to have the credential you're instructing others for, it sure looks that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuroraInstructor Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:21 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:21 PM MANDATING 4 hours of range time is dangerous for both students as well as instructors. If the law only requires 30 rounds of live fire, there's NO REASON for 4 hours on the range. Review this document on lead contamination on the gun range. http://www.utexas.ed.../msds/lead.html Here's a footnote from the article. This article is respectfully dedicated to the memory of ASLET member Sergeant Thomas Kelly, who died on Sept. 17, 1989. Sergeant Kelly died of acute respiratory failure after being exposed daily for two weeks to lead and associated gases on the firing range. It is the author's sincere hope that the information presented herein will contribute to preventing further such tragic losses.Hmmm... this is 23 years old. Haven't range ventilation standards been updated / standardized since then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Federal Farmer Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:24 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:24 PM MANDATING 4 hours of range time is dangerous for both students as well as instructors. If the law only requires 30 rounds of live fire, there's NO REASON for 4 hours on the range. Review this document on lead contamination on the gun range. http://www.utexas.ed.../msds/lead.html Here's a footnote from the article. This article is respectfully dedicated to the memory of ASLET member Sergeant Thomas Kelly, who died on Sept. 17, 1989. Sergeant Kelly died of acute respiratory failure after being exposed daily for two weeks to lead and associated gases on the firing range. It is the author's sincere hope that the information presented herein will contribute to preventing further such tragic losses.Hmmm... this is 23 years old. Haven't range ventilation standards been updated / standardized since then? Only for ranges constructed in the past 23 years...right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobapunk Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:27 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:27 PM I see they still have not defined "public storage" or the "4" rules for safe gun handling... (I assume they mean the NRA's 3 + always treat as if loaded...) I have to assume they are referring to Col. Cooper's rules as modified for the MFT: 1) All firearms are always loaded2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not ready and willing to destroy3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target4) Be sure of your target and its surroundings Although they also add 5) Never handle firearms under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Applicants "must apply for a FCCL" I guess all of those out-of-state instructors are not facing even higher fees... While I can understand them wanting you to have the credential you're instructing others for, it sure looks that way. Thanks for posting those rules. Those are not the NRA's 3 ALWAYS rules ... Safe direction, finger off trigger, keep unloaded until ready to use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:27 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:27 PM While standards may have been updated, it's my understanding that grandfathered ranges were exempt from meeting the new standards. Range ventilation is not my area of expertise, and it shouldn't have to be. But if I and my instructors are required to be in the range for 4 hours every other day, I'll become an expert in it to keep us and our students safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:38 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:38 PM I also wonder if they will come out with the "Department approved cirriculum" which should be a list of courses that would apply so we know exactly what is acceptable or not !! That would be under 1231.50 1 and 2. Their words not mine !! I would not hold your breath ... TOO LATE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxcapp Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:39 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:39 PM I hate to say it but they are only getting credit for how much time they attended and they only attended day 2 then they will get a special certifice for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awan Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:54 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:54 PM From reading the document, it is advantageous to submit 2 requests for approval - one as an 8 hour curriculum and the 2nd, as a full 16 hour curriculum.1) A 16 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:A) Firearms Safety - a minimum of 2 classroom hours;B ) Basic Principles of Marksmanship - a minimum 01'3 classroom and range hours;C) Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm - a minimum of 3 classroom hours;D) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 4 classroom hours; andE) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 4 range hours. 2) An 8 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:A) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 4 classroom hours; andB ) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 4 range hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solareclipse2 Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:58 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 08:58 PM I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rules Yeah, didn't pick up on that either. I had already scheduled the course for me and the wife in October and I plan on hunting at some point so we're still taking it but damn if that isn't a downer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:00 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:00 PM It's sad to say but this is typical of how this state works. Incompetent does not begin to describe Illinois. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:01 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:01 PM From reading the document, it is advantageous to submit 2 requests for approval - one as an 8 hour curriculum and the 2nd, as a full 16 hour curriculum.1) A 16 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:A) Firearms Safety - a minimum of 2 classroom hours;B ) Basic Principles of Marksmanship - a minimum 01'3 classroom and range hours;C) Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm - a minimum of 3 classroom hours;D) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 4 classroom hours; andE) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 4 range hours. 2) An 8 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:A) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership, Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 4 classroom hours; andB ) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 4 range hours. Not to be sarcastic, but how do you plan on doing that ?? There is only one check box next to the 16 / 8 hour course cirriculum. You can only check that box or the 3 hour course box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFC Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:23 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:23 PM The 214 issue kind of bothers me as well.If you've done any classified work, you should be sweating just a little, even if you're outside the requirements of the Non-Desclosure Act.They can extend those terms at will and without notification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylok Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:23 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:23 PM I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rulesMe either, has me concerned. If they just left the word "concealable firearm" out we would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubarud Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:25 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:25 PM I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rulesMe either, has me concerned. If they just left the word "concealable firearm" out we would be fine. Am I missing something? The hunters course covers A,B, & C for a total of 8 hours. Safety, marksmanship & firearm care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylok Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:30 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:30 PM 1285.2Instructors must apply for an il fccl when the app is available. A would be instructor I know is a private investigator so he wasn't planning to get this specific license. Guess he will now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylok Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:30 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:30 PM I really don't see how hunter safety could be construed to meet the requirement as presented in the emergency rulesMe either, has me concerned. If they just left the word "concealable firearm" out we would be fine. Am I missing something? The hunters course covers A,B, & C for a total of 8 hours. Safety, marksmanship & firearm care.Not with a concealable firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WtJen Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:30 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:30 PM You won't need to keep a copy of my DD-214. Who in their right mind would forge a document showing they were stationed at Fort Polk, La? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Federal Farmer Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:42 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 09:42 PM It would be interesting to see what the range training capacity is for IL or for any particular region in IL. If each student must spend 4 hours on the range and assuming ranges stay open for the current operations hours, then their capacity in student-hours can be measured. So if a range is open for 12 hours/day and can accomodate 12 students at a time that would give them a capacity of 12 students/hour * 12 hours/day / 4 hours/class = 36 students/day. If they are open for 6 days/week that is 216 students/week. I'd be interested in seeing what that amounted to regionally but not enough to do the analysis. My gut says, not enough range hours to accomodate 300,000 applicants... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.