WtJen Posted June 17, 2013 at 12:58 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 12:58 AM I was prompted by a member of AR-15.com to come over to post about my experiences with the leadership of my church with reference to conceal carry. About 3 months ago, I began some discussion with our church pastor about the various bills being voted on and my confidence that conceal carry would be passed in some fashion. I could tell fairly quickly that he wasn't too keen on the idea but that he would bring the issue up at the regular pastor/elder meeting. At this point I could have dropped the discussion but what I did not want to have happen is for the pro-CCW discussion to not be present at their meeting. To that end, I sent several informational links to our church elders. Those included the text of the bill as passed, the news story concerning Mary Shepard, and the news story about the Aurora shooter who targeted a theatre with no conceal carry allowed. In my narrative, I did not approach this as a constitutional issue but one of safety. I pointed out that mass shooters tend to target locations where people are by law disarmed. Additionally, I made them aware that by posting a sign on the door not allowing CCW, that they basically would make the church a target instead of making us safer. In my letter to them I stressed that concealed carry means exactly that, concealed. I was trying to alleviate the concern that some of them might have had about scaring our parishoners. We already have two LEO's that conceal at church and I pointed out people who are going to go through all the hoops to obtain their permit are people who are going to be cautious not to print. Taking a proactive stance worked for me since I had a good relationship with the men involved and they trusted my judgement. I invited them to call me at any time if they wanted to discuss this further. In the end, I got this letter last week: WtJen, The elders have met and discussed the IL Conceal Carry bill. In light of the bill, and the information you provided, we have begun the process to re-evaluate our current safety procedures. We wanted to communicate to you, that we will not be posting "Gun-Free Zone" signs in the church window. As far as carrying in the church, we will leave it up to the individual, if they want to carry in church. As part of the re-evaluation of the safety procedures, we will be asking those that will be carrying to voluntarily communicate that to our Safety Team Leader (currently XXXXXX). Neither the elders, nor the staff need to know who is carrying, but we believe that the Safety Team Leader would find this information valuable. We will be sending a letter to the congregation in the near future regarding the conceal carry issue and the plans to re-evaluate the safety procedures. Since you brought this issue to our attention we wanted to communicate these things to you as soon as we had a decision. Thank you for your thoughts regarding the issue, and as always, feel free to contact any of us at any time. In His service, XXXXXX If its possible make yourself the go-to guy with conceal carry questions at your church. There is so much bad information in the media, your church leadership needs to get the facts. If you have any questions about the process of informing your church leaders and being pro-active about the issue please ask away.
Jeff Johnson Posted June 17, 2013 at 01:04 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 01:04 AM Welcome. Great first post.And nicely handled with the church board.
Scots Posted June 17, 2013 at 01:31 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 01:31 AM Nice work. Churches are not a prohibited place in 183, are they? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
JJ57 Posted June 17, 2013 at 01:46 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 01:46 AM If anyone belongs to a church that is against conceal carry, show them this http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506820,00.html
sirflyguy Posted June 17, 2013 at 02:24 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 02:24 AM I am on staff at a local church. I will be having discussions very soon with our leadership. The lead pastor has actually taken my Basic Pistol course, so he isn't anti-gun, though I do think he worries about yahoos shooting in a crowd. I will be talking with him very soon, as they need to come up with whatever policy they decide on. As it is private property, they are well within their rights to not permit it. I know some churches in other states allow it, but only as approved by the leadership on a person-by-person basis. I had met Fred Winters, the pastor in Maryville who was shot during service, and had done a few concerts at that church. As I sit on our platform during services, I often think about what I would do in a similar situation as Maryville. I am hoping that the leadership will at least allow some of us (besides the LEOs and retired LEOs) to carry. I thinnk it might be funny that I might be packing more than a Gibson Les Paul there some time soon!
sirflyguy Posted June 17, 2013 at 02:25 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 02:25 AM Nice work. Churches are not a prohibited place in 183, are they? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2Churches are not listed in the bill that I saw. However, as private property, they will be allowed to post "no gun" signs,
drdoom Posted June 17, 2013 at 02:30 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 02:30 AM I remember a couple years back, going to a baptist church up in Kane Co. and they actually encouraged the congregation to carry while the services were going. I would not think many would have issue, then again, it would be hilarious if St. Sabina's posted signs.
Kouz Posted June 17, 2013 at 03:09 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 03:09 AM I recently had a similar discussion with a respected pro gun member of my church. His advise was to only bring it up if no carry signs get posted. His train of thought was that in any church board there is going to be at least one person that will object to the carrying of firearms. His hope is that if you don't bring it up, they wont pay enough attention to banning it.
TyGuy Posted June 17, 2013 at 03:11 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 03:11 AM My pastor has requested me to carry at church.
WtJen Posted June 17, 2013 at 03:21 AM Author Posted June 17, 2013 at 03:21 AM I recently had a similar discussion with a respected pro gun member of my church. His advise was to only bring it up if no carry signs get posted. His train of thought was that in any church board there is going to be at least one person that will object to the carrying of firearms. His hope is that if you don't bring it up, they wont pay enough attention to banning it. This option did occur to me before I brought this whole deal up. But in my experience with church boards, elders, and pastors is that once a decision is made, its difficult to reverse it. Then, people's egos are involved in defending their decision, even if it is later proved to be a bad one. Yes, its risky to be proactive but when you want to sway opinion, you have to make sure they get the facts from somone else other than a very anti-gun media.
KNAK Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:45 AM Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:45 AM Not worth bringing up at our church, we have a preschool onsite. Therefore, as I understand it, we are required to be a gun free zone by the proposed law.
CILhunter Posted June 17, 2013 at 12:23 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 12:23 PM Not worth bringing up at our church, we have a preschool onsite. Therefore, as I understand it, we are required to be a gun free zone by the proposed law. I wonder how that would be applied during non-school hours? We also have a pre-school attached to our church, and the church sits on the same parcel as our K-8 school. however, our pre-school and K-8 school are not used for school purposes, and no children are present for school, on Saturday evening or Sunday morning.
GAS3987 Posted June 17, 2013 at 02:13 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 02:13 PM Ours has it's own private security team led by an LEO. He has indicated he wants all team members to be able to carry if they choose to. He also does not want to post a sign that makes us what is a "soft target." All of which is approved by the pastor. He has been very pro security for a long time. The church and pastor in many ways are pretty outspoken, and have received various threats. We don't take them lightly.
SLIM410 Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:43 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:43 PM Why would anyone want to carry into a church? Who are you defending yourself against in church?
sirflyguy Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:46 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:46 PM Why would anyone want to carry into a church? Who are you defending yourself against in church?I ask you if you live in a bubble? See post #4 in this topic.
WtJen Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:46 PM Author Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:46 PM Why would anyone want to carry into a church? Who are you defending yourself against in church? Are you asking a serious question? Because the answer is rather obvious if you have followed the trend of mass shooters.
SLIM410 Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:07 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:07 PM Why would anyone want to carry into a church? Who are you defending yourself against in church?I ask you if you live in a bubble? See post #4 in this topic. I have not heard of any church shootings and I don't live in a bubble either. I do think that some fools here have way too much time on their hands to come up with ludicrous questions like carrying in a church, Notice he points that out from the very start. Not a member here until today coming from another site to stir the ****
RedBarchetta Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:37 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:37 PM http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506820,00.html
TyGuy Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:38 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:38 PM Plenty of shootings in churches. Use google.
sirflyguy Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:47 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:47 PM Ludicrous question? Tell that to Cindy Winters, Rev. Fred Winters' widow. I have more than one set of friends that go to that church in Maryville. One who is very close to me did CPR on Fred after he was shot. Not a ludicrous question at all. Google is your friend. And be careful who you call a fool, whoever you are. I have a scripture for you for that, if you want.
TyGuy Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:51 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:51 PM Mary Sheppard, Colorado YWAM shootings, etc....
lee n. field Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:53 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:53 PM Why would anyone want to carry into a church? Who are you defending yourself against in church? Churches are, sometimes, a magnet for the disturbed.
Scots Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:55 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:55 PM Why would anyone want to carry into a church? Who are you defending yourself against in church? lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
lee n. field Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:55 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:55 PM Why would anyone want to carry into a church? Who are you defending yourself against in church?I ask you if you live in a bubble? See post #4 in this topic. I have not heard of any church shootings and I don't live in a bubble either. Uhh, OK. Pay attention to the news. It does happen. Not often, but it does.
azone5 Posted June 17, 2013 at 11:01 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 11:01 PM I am on staff at a local church. I will be having discussions very soon with our leadership. The lead pastor has actually taken my Basic Pistol course, so he isn't anti-gun, though I do think he worries about yahoos shooting in a crowd. I will be talking with him very soon, as they need to come up with whatever policy they decide on. As it is private property, they are well within their rights to not permit it. I know some churches in other states allow it, but only as approved by the leadership on a person-by-person basis. I had met Fred Winters, the pastor in Maryville who was shot during service, and had done a few concerts at that church. As I sit on our platform during services, I often think about what I would do in a similar situation as Maryville. I am hoping that the leadership will at least allow some of us (besides the LEOs and retired LEOs) to carry. I thinnk it might be funny that I might be packing more than a Gibson Les Paul there some time soon! If the pastor is worried about yahoos shooting in a crowd, what more justification does he need for CC in the church?
sirflyguy Posted June 18, 2013 at 01:38 AM Posted June 18, 2013 at 01:38 AM I am on staff at a local church. I will be having discussions very soon with our leadership. The lead pastor has actually taken my Basic Pistol course, so he isn't anti-gun, though I do think he worries about yahoos shooting in a crowd. I will be talking with him very soon, as they need to come up with whatever policy they decide on. As it is private property, they are well within their rights to not permit it. I know some churches in other states allow it, but only as approved by the leadership on a person-by-person basis. I had met Fred Winters, the pastor in Maryville who was shot during service, and had done a few concerts at that church. As I sit on our platform during services, I often think about what I would do in a similar situation as Maryville. I am hoping that the leadership will at least allow some of us (besides the LEOs and retired LEOs) to carry. I thinnk it might be funny that I might be packing more than a Gibson Les Paul there some time soon! If the pastor is worried about yahoos shooting in a crowd, what more justification does he need for CC in the church?I should elaborate on my comment. I think he worries about someone whose training is maybe less than adequate making a situation worse in trying to prevent an active shooter from being active. Does that make more sense?
TyGuy Posted June 18, 2013 at 01:43 AM Posted June 18, 2013 at 01:43 AM If makes sense, but it's unfounded. Show me examples of innocents hit in the crossfire. It almost never happens. I'd say never, but there might be a few instances. It's like having a heart attack and refusing to take the ambulance ride to the hospital because you're afraid the ambulance will get into an accident. Active shooters in churches, and other large gatherings, are a real documented threat. Bystanders hit when an armed citizen responds to an active shooter just doesn't happen.
sirflyguy Posted June 18, 2013 at 01:48 AM Posted June 18, 2013 at 01:48 AM If makes sense, but it's unfounded. Show me examples of innocents hit in the crossfire. It almost never happens. I'd say never, but there might be a few instances. It's like having a heart attack and refusing to take the ambulance ride to the hospital because you're afraid the ambulance will get into an accident. Active shooters in churches, and other large gatherings, are a real documented threat. Bystanders hit when an armed citizen responds to an active shooter just doesn't happen.I agree, but was just stating where he is on the issue.
azone5 Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:24 AM Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:24 AM I am on staff at a local church. I will be having discussions very soon with our leadership. The lead pastor has actually taken my Basic Pistol course, so he isn't anti-gun, though I do think he worries about yahoos shooting in a crowd. I will be talking with him very soon, as they need to come up with whatever policy they decide on. As it is private property, they are well within their rights to not permit it. I know some churches in other states allow it, but only as approved by the leadership on a person-by-person basis. I had met Fred Winters, the pastor in Maryville who was shot during service, and had done a few concerts at that church. As I sit on our platform during services, I often think about what I would do in a similar situation as Maryville. I am hoping that the leadership will at least allow some of us (besides the LEOs and retired LEOs) to carry. I thinnk it might be funny that I might be packing more than a Gibson Les Paul there some time soon! If the pastor is worried about yahoos shooting in a crowd, what more justification does he need for CC in the church?I should elaborate on my comment. I think he worries about someone whose training is maybe less than adequate making a situation worse in trying to prevent an active shooter from being active. Does that make more sense? That's always a concern, but i bet cases of that happening are rare. It may have happened but I don't think I've ever heard of one by a civilian. I've heard of it happening with LEO's though.
GAS3987 Posted June 18, 2013 at 10:57 AM Posted June 18, 2013 at 10:57 AM If you have a pastor who is outspoken, a church body that is active in the community, and open, welcoming doors, there is a good chance that someone could show up with bad intentions. We have talked about various scenarios, and active shooter being the least likely, but worst and completely possible. Our team prepares for simply disgruntled people, prepares and trains with CPR to at least begin aid to someone if they need it, and also prepares for fire evacuation or tornado drills. This is one scripture our security leader refers to with the Biblical justification for security. Nehemiah 4:8-9 8 They all plotted together to come and fight against Jerusalem and stir up trouble against it. 9 But we prayed to our God and posted a guard day and night to meet this threat. Can we stop anything? No. But we have an obligation to the members and guests to make it as safe as possible for their time at our church.
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