jake8267 Posted January 27, 2014 at 04:44 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 04:44 PM My wife just reported that my docter's office (which is not within or even near a hospital) has posted. I'm really disappointed since he and his partner have been great, but I guess I'm going to have to start looking for a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtr100 Posted January 27, 2014 at 04:52 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 04:52 PM My wife just reported that my docter's office (which is not within or even near a hospital) has posted. I'm really disappointed since he and his partner have been great, but I guess I'm going to have to start looking for a replacement. be sure to let them know why - odd are they won't give a rip but they may be misinformed and think they're required to post it might could be that the property is owned by a hospital - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchet Posted January 27, 2014 at 04:56 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 04:56 PM Noticed last week during work. Speedway at 79th and Harlem in bridgeview.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clenz Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:30 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:30 PM Noticed last week during work. Speedway at 79th and Harlem in bridgeview.... I wonder how that would work if you pay at the pump with a cc? Does this mean you have to disarm and leave the firearm in your car when pumping your gas?I see this as an interesting twist on the parking lot exemption. Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrainstr Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:37 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:37 PM Anyone see the probelm with the sign. It's not a State approved sign Where is the Pursuant to430 ILCS 66/65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuroraInstructor Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:42 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:42 PM Noticed last week during work. Speedway at 79th and Harlem in bridgeview.... I wonder how that would work if you pay at the pump with a cc? Does this mean you have to disarm and leave the firearm in your car when pumping your gas?I see this as an interesting twist on the parking lot exemption. Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using TapatalkIf the sign is posted on the door, then the building is a Prohibited Area, not the Parking Lot. The only way that you can "knowingly" be in violation is if they post a sign at the Parking Lot entrance for all to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyGuy Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:43 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:43 PM Or hire someone to stand there with a sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedoc Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:43 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:43 PM Noticed last week during work. Speedway at 79th and Harlem in bridgeview.... I wonder how that would work if you pay at the pump with a cc? Does this mean you have to disarm and leave the firearm in your car when pumping your gas?I see this as an interesting twist on the parking lot exemption. Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using TapatalkI suppose that would depend if the building is posted or the property. If the property was posted at the entrance then you would not be able to get out of your vehicle at the pump to swipe your cc with a loaded gun. The safe haven around your vehicle is for storing your firearm in the trunk and it must be unloaded before you exit your vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedoc Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:44 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 05:44 PM I type too slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake8267 Posted January 27, 2014 at 06:33 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 06:33 PM I emailed a politely worded complaint/request for explanation and actually received a phone call response already. The woman was very nice and it turns out that the office is owned by a hospital group (which I did not know). From conversation it sounds like without being forced into posting they probably wouldn't have. With the fact that they were concerned enough to call me almost immediately, plus not posting by choice, I guess I'll stick with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobapunk Posted January 27, 2014 at 08:08 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 08:08 PM Noticed last week during work. Speedway at 79th and Harlem in bridgeview.... I wonder how that would work if you pay at the pump with a cc? Does this mean you have to disarm and leave the firearm in your car when pumping your gas?I see this as an interesting twist on the parking lot exemption. Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk Per the letter of the law, a sign on the door makes the entire property prohibited. If you are wanting to use the parking lot exemption, remember that you are only allowed to have the concealed firearm outside of the vehicle if 1. it is unloaded PRIOR to exiting the vehicle, and 2. you are in the process of stowing the firearm (IE, in the trunk). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobapunk Posted January 27, 2014 at 08:18 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 08:18 PM If the sign is posted on the door, then the building is a Prohibited Area, not the Parking Lot. The only way that you can "knowingly" be in violation is if they post a sign at the Parking Lot entrance for all to see. I do not interpret it that way: (a-10) The owner of private real property of any type mayprohibit the carrying of concealed firearms on the propertyunder his or her control. The owner must post a sign inaccordance with subsection (d) of this Section indicating that firearms are prohibited on the property, unless the property isa private residence. - 430 ILCS 66/65 (a-10) (d) Signs stating that the carrying of firearms isprohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at theentrance of a building, premises, or real property specified inthis Section as a prohibited area, unless the building orpremises is a private residence. Signs shall be of a uniformdesign as established by the Department and shall be 4 inchesby 6 inches in size. The Department shall adopt rules forstandardized signs to be used under this subsection. - 430 ILCS 66/65 (d) I would think that an eager prosecutor would say that the sign on the door prohibits the entire property since 430 ILCS 66/65 (d) appears to give the owner of real property the option of posting the sign at the entrance to a building, premises, or real property. Posting a 4"x6" sign at the entrance of the gas station's real property may not be logical or even possible as some locations. This one is likely be clarified via case law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadWaterBill Posted January 27, 2014 at 08:25 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 08:25 PM Since some towns in this state do not allow even banners on the outside of the structure (think golden arches) I doubt they would allow any signs at the entrance to their property. But then this is Illinois we are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock23 Posted January 27, 2014 at 08:53 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 08:53 PM I would think that an eager prosecutor would say that the sign on the door prohibits the entire property since 430 ILCS 66/65 (d) appears to give the owner of real property the option of posting the sign at the entrance to a building, premises, or real property. Posting a 4"x6" sign at the entrance of the gas station's real property may not be logical or even possible as some locations. This one is likely be clarified via case law.I would think that the option of posting the entrance to the building, premises or real property would be more applicable to the level of prohibition the person wanted, i.e. if the parking lot is not posted, it is not prohibited. Say a parking lot is shared by 3 separate businesses (all in separate buildings). If one business posts the entrance to their building, are customers of the other 2 businesses automatically prohibited from carrying in the parking lot? Another thing to keep in mind... Not all of the 23 statutorily prohibited locations include the parking area... those that do, it is included in the wording. In that respect, the safe harbor language applies to instances of being "prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm into the parking area of a prohibited location in subsection a, a-5, or a-10..." This is not the same as simply carrying into the parking area of a prohibited location as, again, not all places listed in those sections include the parking area. As for the sign, do the rules not say that the original sign's 4x6 inches are the minimum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadWaterBill Posted January 27, 2014 at 09:07 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 09:07 PM Shouldn't the signs be posted at eye level? Permitting ANY size and location could lead to some sort of entrapment I would think. If I was walking up to the door and a polite person held the door open I COULD only see the back side if I were REALLY looking hard instead of thanking someone for opening or holding open the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobapunk Posted January 27, 2014 at 09:23 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 09:23 PM I would think that an eager prosecutor would say that the sign on the door prohibits the entire property since 430 ILCS 66/65 (d) appears to give the owner of real property the option of posting the sign at the entrance to a building, premises, or real property. Posting a 4"x6" sign at the entrance of the gas station's real property may not be logical or even possible as some locations. This one is likely be clarified via case law.I would think that the option of posting the entrance to the building, premises or real property would be more applicable to the level of prohibition the person wanted, i.e. if the parking lot is not posted, it is not prohibited. Say a parking lot is shared by 3 separate businesses (all in separate buildings). If one business posts the entrance to their building, are customers of the other 2 businesses automatically prohibited from carrying in the parking lot? Another thing to keep in mind... Not all of the 23 statutorily prohibited locations include the parking area... those that do, it is included in the wording. In that respect, the safe harbor language applies to instances of being "prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm into the parking area of a prohibited location in subsection a, a-5, or a-10..." This is not the same as simply carrying into the parking area of a prohibited location as, again, not all places listed in those sections include the parking area. As for the sign, do the rules not say that the original sign's 4x6 inches are the minimum? In that scenario, the parking lot is NOT under the control of the business that chooses to post the sign. I see your point about the statutorily prohibited places not automatically including their associated parking areas. However, Section 65 (a-10) plainly states "The owner of private real property of any type may prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms on the property under his or her control." That property may very well include a parking area; and, in the case of a gas station, I am fairly certain that the area with the fuel pumps would be classified as "under the control" of the owner of the gas station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobapunk Posted January 27, 2014 at 09:34 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 09:34 PM Shouldn't the signs be posted at eye level? Permitting ANY size and location could lead to some sort of entrapment I would think. If I was walking up to the door and a polite person held the door open I COULD only see the back side if I were REALLY looking hard instead of thanking someone for opening or holding open the door. FYI: (d) Signs stating that the carrying of firearms isprohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at theentrance of a building, premises, or real property specified inthis Section as a prohibited area, unless the building orpremises is a private residence. Signs shall be of a uniformdesign as established by the Department and shall be 4 inchesby 6 inches in size. The Department shall adopt rules forstandardized signs to be used under this subsection. - 430 ILCS 66/65 (d) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock23 Posted January 27, 2014 at 09:34 PM Share Posted January 27, 2014 at 09:34 PM I would think that an eager prosecutor would say that the sign on the door prohibits the entire property since 430 ILCS 66/65 (d) appears to give the owner of real property the option of posting the sign at the entrance to a building, premises, or real property. Posting a 4"x6" sign at the entrance of the gas station's real property may not be logical or even possible as some locations. This one is likely be clarified via case law.I would think that the option of posting the entrance to the building, premises or real property would be more applicable to the level of prohibition the person wanted, i.e. if the parking lot is not posted, it is not prohibited. Say a parking lot is shared by 3 separate businesses (all in separate buildings). If one business posts the entrance to their building, are customers of the other 2 businesses automatically prohibited from carrying in the parking lot? Another thing to keep in mind... Not all of the 23 statutorily prohibited locations include the parking area... those that do, it is included in the wording. In that respect, the safe harbor language applies to instances of being "prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm into the parking area of a prohibited location in subsection a, a-5, or a-10..." This is not the same as simply carrying into the parking area of a prohibited location as, again, not all places listed in those sections include the parking area. As for the sign, do the rules not say that the original sign's 4x6 inches are the minimum? In that scenario, the parking lot is NOT under the control of the business that chooses to post the sign.Gotta say, I think you're reaching on the parking lots. Nowhere in the law does it state that parking lots of prohibited places are automatically prohibited, with the exception of nuclear facilities, at which the safe harbor doesn't apply. Otherwise, the simple fact that only some (not all) of the 23 places listed under 65a include the parking area in the prohibition indicates it is not a blanket prohibition. Yet they are all required to post. Nothing is stopping someone from posting a sign at the entrance to their parking lot if they choose. If the parking lot is prohibited by statute, safe harbor applies (minus stated exceptions). If the parking lot is posted by the private owner of said parking lot, safe harbor applies. If the parking lot is not posted, carry is legal. Just my non-lawyer opinion, but a lawyer here has also agreed with this in another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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