defaultdotxbe Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:34 AM Share Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:34 AM not sure if this is the right place, but that 288 figure from VPC seems to be popping up everywhere these days, so I've been trying to do some research to put it into perspective, ABolt already has numbers comparing it to the overall murder rate in the US, so i tried to find some other interesting figures Between 2006 and 2008 1,169 people were killed in police chases, including 349 innocent bystanders and 17 law enforcement officers. The 803 deaths in the car being pursued also include children and innocent passengershttp://pursuitsafety.org/images/PURSUIT_A%201982-2007.PDF During the same time period 254 bystanders and 111 officers were killed in crashes while police were not pursuing another vehiclehttp://pursuitsafety.org/images/emergency_nhtsa1982-2008.PDF In 1993 police shot and killed 330 innocent peopleThis stated as being a University of Chicago study, but the citation is John Lott's book More Guns, Less CrimeI'm sure someone here owns it, if you could help me track down the original source that I would appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Gwinn Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:47 AM Share Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:47 AM I have it somewhere . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:18 AM Share Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:18 AM I have it somewhere . . . . I think a much better way to attack the "288 concealed carry killers" is the actual listing itself. A lot of them are not murders at all but but suicides. One of the concealed carry permit holders commited a murder, not by shooting but by strangulation A whole bunch of them are listed as "pending " (even though all of then are more than three years old) and included the shooting of armed robbers and burglars. I have the whole list if anyone wants it but it is too lengthy to post here. But you can disprove the entire claim just by looking at what they are including Here's a cut and paste directly from the report as an example: Florida# Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Thomas BakerNO CHARGES FILEDDate: November 24, 2010People Killed: 1Circumstances: On November 24, 2010, concealed handgun permit holder Thomas Baker, 28, allegedly shot and killed Carlos Mustelier, 18, with a 45 caliber semiautomatichandgun. According to law enforcement officials, Baker was out jogging atapproximately 1:00 AM when the two teens started talking to him. The conversationescalated into an altercation and Mustelier punched Baker. Baker told police he thoughtone of the teens had a weapon and that he was about to be robbed. Baker then shotMustelier multiple times in the upper torso.UPDATE: On January 22, 2011, the Florida State Attorney's Office announced that no charges would be filed against Thomas Baker. Authorities said the decision not to filecharges came after a 16-year-old boy with Mustelier at the time said Mustelier had indeedplanned to rob Baker. But Mustelier's family and friends said he was set up after havinghad an earlier altercation with Baker's younger brother and were also angry that Mustelierwas shot repeatedly at close range. "I know that he thought my brother had a gun," saidDianela Gonzalez, Mustelier's sister. "But I mean, it was eight shots fired. How do youshoot someone eight times in self-defense? That makes no sense."Source: "No charges for jogger in Town 'N Country fatal shooting," Tampa Tribune, January 22, 2011;"Town 'N Country jogger on fatal shooting of teen: 'It was a terrible thing,'" St. Petersburg Times,November 24, 2010 See what I mean? 28 of the siucides listed are from Michigan and they cite a Michigan State Police report that states, 28 concealed carry permit holders committed suicide over the space of a two year period. It doesn't list the method of the siucide as a matter of fact there is no listing of names or any of the circumstances. So that one entry takes it down to 260 just by itself. Here's another one that is included: Oklahoma# Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Jerome ErslandPENDINGDate: May 19, 2009People Killed: 1Circumstances: On May 19, 2009, Jerome Ersland allegedly shot and killed AntwunParker, a 16-year-old who attempted to rob the Reliable Discount Pharmacy whereErsland worked as a pharmacist. Parker and another man entered the pharmacy as it wasabout to close at approximately 6:00 PM and pulled a gun, demanding cash and drugs.Ersland pulled his own gun and shot Parker in the head. The other robber fled the storeand Ersland gave chase. Ersland then returned to the store, walked past Parker who wason the floor, retrieved another gun, and shot Parker five more times in the stomach. Acoroner’s report indicated that the shot to the head would not have been fatal, and ruledthat the cause of death was the five shots to the stomach. Ersland possessed a concealedhandgun permit despite being accused by his ex-wife of displaying “paranoid behavior”and abusing drugs. He was also alleged to have been under the care of a mental healthprofessional in the past. Ersland was reported to have owned more than 100 weapons.The district attorney in Oklahoma concluded that Ersland should be charged with firstdegree murder because Parker at that point was unarmed, unconscious, and lying on hisback, posing no threat to Ersland when he fired the five shots into Parker’s stomach.Source: “Pharmacy Robberies,” U.S. Pharmacist, July 20, 2009; “Shooting raises question on concealedcarry permits,” The Oklahoman, June 10, 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defaultdotxbe Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:26 AM Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:26 AM yeah, ive looked over a lot of them too, but it doesnt make a good "sound bite" you know? something to just throw back at someone who brings it up BTW heres the link to all of them if anyone wants it:http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwtotalkilled.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:39 AM Share Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:39 AM , but it doesnt make a good "sound bite" you know? something to just throw back at someone who brings it up BTW heres the link to all of them if anyone wants it:http://www.vpc.org/f...totalkilled.pdf I don't think attacking the police based on their performance (or mistakes or lack of performance) is a very good way either. Telling the truth about the VPC report is better. Ignoring that it is mostly lies and attacking police performance is just justifying one wrong by comparing it to another wrong. The US Center for Disease Control reports that an average of 250,000 Americans die every year as a result of medical mistakes or medical malpractice but I don't think that would be a good fact to use either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneshot Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:51 AM Share Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:51 AM And whatever you find, those are just the cases where the police involved were honest or the facts couldn't be covered up. There have been incidents such as when homeowners have been killed when they called 911 for a home invasion and the first officer on the scene mistook the homeowner for the burglar and shot them dead. The homeowner did as the operator told them and left the line open and the operator overheard two of the officers discussing how to cover up the deadly mistake, the non-shooter telling the shooter "Don't worry, I've got your back". There's another case that happened here in my town that I can't really give any details on because the person who told me did so in confidence and I can't really prove anything, but there was a cover up with respect to a shooting, I know this from medical personnel...anyway, I know it happens and I think any reasonable person would assume so in a world with a portion dishonest people. I'll go ahead and make the disclaimer now that I'm sure that most police officers are honest people and do the right thing, but of course it is easier for the dishonest ones to cover things up than it is for a regular civilian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defaultdotxbe Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:55 AM Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 at 01:55 AM , but it doesnt make a good "sound bite" you know? something to just throw back at someone who brings it up BTW heres the link to all of them if anyone wants it:http://www.vpc.org/f...totalkilled.pdf I don't think attacking the police based on their performance (or mistakes or lack of performance) is a very good way either. Telling the truth about the VPC report is better. Ignoring that it is mostly lies and attacking police performance is just justifying one wrong by comparing it to another wrong. The US Center for Disease Control reports that an average of 250,000 Americans die every year as a result of medical mistakes or medical malpractice but I don't think that would be a good fact to use either.im not trying to attach the police, just pointing out that CCW licensees are just as responsible as the folks who no one questions having RTC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Federal Farmer Posted March 31, 2011 at 03:28 AM Share Posted March 31, 2011 at 03:28 AM Here's a great column Steve Chapman of the Tribune just published following an email exchange between he and I the other day. "Experience is a dear teacher," said Benjamin Franklin, "but fools will learn at no other." Give some credit to fools: At least they eventually learn from experience. What would Franklin say about people who don't? ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Harley Posted March 31, 2011 at 03:57 AM Share Posted March 31, 2011 at 03:57 AM Pool Submersion Deaths to Children under 52001-2003Year Deaths4Deaths per 100,000Population5Average 280 1.42003 287 1.42002 282 1.42001 269 1.4 Golf Course Fatalities Year Fatalities 2001 13 2002 21 2003 11 2004 22 2005 24 20062 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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