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Justifiable Use of Force - IL Statute


Molly B.

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Trevis,

 

what would you do if "bad guy" pulled a gun on your staff? you have a way out of the building, do you open the door to the lobby and ingage or walk out and call 911?

 

I have absolutely no way to answer this question. Every situation is completely different, and you have to make split second decisions. You can plan, but life often doesn't go according to plan.

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So, just theoretical situation, lets say theres 2 guys, 1 has a cane/bat/something that can be used to bash you, and is coming at you in a threatening manner. what do you do? what should you? And are you allowed to use force in this scenerio?

There is no simple yes or no to your question. You have to evaluate if you can reasonably believe that you are about to suffer death or grievous bodily harm or not. You may have mere seconds to arrive at your conclusion. Someone other than yourself is going to look at the situation after the fact and determine whether you used justifiable use of force or not.

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So, just theoretical situation, lets say theres 2 guys, 1 has a cane/bat/something that can be used to bash you, and is coming at you in a threatening manner. what do you do? what should you? And are you allowed to use force in this scenerio?

There is no simple yes or no to your question. You have to evaluate if you can reasonably believe that you are about to suffer death or grievous bodily harm or not. You may have mere seconds to arrive at your conclusion. Someone other than yourself is going to look at the situation after the fact and determine whether you used justifiable use of force or not.

 

This is why a trailer bill should modify the the FCCA to allow for carrying of Tasers and/or other less lethal weapons with the license.
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So, just theoretical situation, lets say theres 2 guys, 1 has a cane/bat/something that can be used to bash you, and is coming at you in a threatening manner. what do you do? what should you? And are you allowed to use force in this scenerio?There is no simple yes or no to your question. You have to evaluate if you can reasonably believe that you are about to suffer death or grievous bodily harm or not. You may have mere seconds to arrive at your conclusion. Someone other than yourself is going to look at the situation after the fact and determine whether you used justifiable use of force or not.This is why a trailer bill should modify the the FCCA to allow for carrying of Tasers and/or other less lethal weapons with the license.

 

Or simply strike their prohibition from the UUW law.

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Or simply strike their prohibition from the UUW law.

 

Thank Blago for that one. That really frustrated me when they added that to the list, as I delivered pizzas and they made it illegal when I already owned one. Then I had absolutely no protection. It was exactly then I came into realization about the backwards state I lived in with regards to rights of self defense.

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So, just theoretical situation, lets say theres 2 guys, 1 has a cane/bat/something that can be used to bash you, and is coming at you in a threatening manner. what do you do? what should you? And are you allowed to use force in this scenerio?

 

To expound on this further, given the state of the laws, what WOULD you do? Would you put your hand on the handle in holster? Unholster and have at a down and ready position, to deter further advance and to be ready if the potential attacker gets closer than the, say 5 feet, he is presently at? or do you draw and aim?, or draw, aim, and shoot?

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/quote"]http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/05/robert-farago/dgu-chicago-baseball-bat-attack-edition/ttp://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/05/robert-farago/dgu-chicago-baseball-bat-attack-edition/quote[/url] name="Jerze2387" post="753825" timestamp="1400860105"]

So, just theoretical situation, lets say theres 2 guys, 1 has a cane/bat/something that can be used to bash you, and is coming at you in a threatening manner. what do you do? what should you? And are you allowed to use force in this scenerio?

Here is a similar incident to what you described which involved a thug hit both a man and a woman with a baseball bat and unfortunately the woman suffer serios bodily injury due to brain injury that prevents her from being able to function on her own.
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/quote"]http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/05/robert-farago/dgu-chicago-baseball-bat-attack-edition/ttp://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/05/robert-farago/dgu-chicago-baseball-bat-attack-edition/quote[/url] name="Jerze2387" post="753825" timestamp="1400860105"]

So, just theoretical situation, lets say theres 2 guys, 1 has a cane/bat/something that can be used to bash you, and is coming at you in a threatening manner. what do you do? what should you? And are you allowed to use force in this scenerio?

Here is a similar incident to what you described which involved a thug hit both a man and a woman with a baseball bat and unfortunately the woman suffer serios bodily injury due to brain injury that prevents her from being able to function on her own.

 

Thats exactly what inspired my question. Because obviously this is a realistic scenerio any of is could face at any time, so i was wondering what most of us would do given the circumstances. Do you preempt the swing of the bat if they are moving toward you in an obviously aggressive way? Or do you wait until the situatuion escalates into more?

 

given that 1 hit could render you unconcious or incapacitated, i was just curious what most of us would do, and what we should do given the legal ramifications

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/quote"]http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/05/robert-farago/dgu-chicago-baseball-bat-attack-edition/ttp://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/05/robert-farago/dgu-chicago-baseball-bat-attack-edition/quote[/url] name="Jerze2387" post="753825" timestamp="1400860105"]

So, just theoretical situation, lets say theres 2 guys, 1 has a cane/bat/something that can be used to bash you, and is coming at you in a threatening manner. what do you do? what should you? And are you allowed to use force in this scenerio?

Here is a similar incident to what you described which involved a thug hit both a man and a woman with a baseball bat and unfortunately the woman suffer serios bodily injury due to brain injury that prevents her from being able to function on her own.

 

Thats exactly what inspired my question. Because obviously this is a realistic scenerio any of is could face at any time, so i was wondering what most of us would do given the circumstances. Do you preempt the swing of the bat if they are moving toward you in an obviously aggressive way? Or do you wait until the situatuion escalates into more?

 

given that 1 hit could render you unconcious or incapacitated, i was just curious what most of us would do, and what we should do given the legal ramifications

In such a situation I would fear that the attacker plans to beat my brains out and would shoot to stop the threat.
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So, just theoretical situation, lets say theres 2 guys, 1 has a cane/bat/something that can be used to bash you, and is coming at you in a threatening manner. what do you do? what should you? And are you allowed to use force in this scenerio?

 

 

That's an easy one for me, I'd engage the first threat,, then the second, disarming them of the weapon, and fight until they were no longer a threat. I would not use my firearm in that case. But I have martial arts training, and it is easier than a lot of people realize to defend against a bat or that type of weapon.

 

Now if it were a knife, that's a different story. It's very easy to get cut BAD. If it were a knife, the gun would come out. My gun doesn't come out unless I'm going to fire, so all I could hope is during my draw, that they stop and retreat. If my gun comes to the ready position, I'm firing.

 

There's a disparity of force, 2 on one, plus the use of a weapon. Use of force, up to and including deadly force is warranted.

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For what it's worth... If I am drawing my sidearm, I have made the decision that I am about to die. That's the only reason for me to pull my gun. That's the only thing I will be thinking about in a situation of this kind. Not "it is justified." Not "disparity of force." Nothing like that.

 

"I am about to die."

 

Stay Safe and Carry Responsibly

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So, just theoretical situation, lets say theres 2 guys, 1 has a cane/bat/something that can be used to bash you, and is coming at you in a threatening manner. what do you do? what should you? And are you allowed to use force in this scenerio?

 

 

That's an easy one for me, I'd engage the first threat,, then the second, disarming them of the weapon, and fight until they were no longer a threat. I would not use my firearm in that case. But I have martial arts training, and it is easier than a lot of people realize to defend against a bat or that type of weapon.

 

Now if it were a knife, that's a different story. It's very easy to get cut BAD. If it were a knife, the gun would come out. My gun doesn't come out unless I'm going to fire, so all I could hope is during my draw, that they stop and retreat. If my gun comes to the ready position, I'm firing.

 

There's a disparity of force, 2 on one, plus the use of a weapon. Use of force, up to and including deadly force is warranted.

 

baWAhahahahahaha!!!!!

 

Oh, wait. Sorry, I didn't realize you were serious.

 

Please let us know how that works out for you if you're ever in that situation, okay?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZ6eaL3S2E

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For what it's worth... If I am drawing my sidearm, I have made the decision that I am about to die. That's the only reason for me to pull my gun. That's the only thing I will be thinking about in a situation of this kind. Not "it is justified." Not "disparity of force." Nothing like that.

 

"I am about to die."

 

Stay Safe and Carry Responsibly

So given the scenerio proposed, since it's not a gun or knife but still potentially deadly weapon plus numbered 2 to 1, does that fall into a reasonable assumption of possible death?

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So given the scenerio proposed, since it's not a gun or knife but still potentially deadly weapon plus numbered 2 to 1, does that fall into a reasonable assumption of possible death?

 

A blunt object definitely has the potential to be a deadly weapon.

I fully agree. I was just curious as to what overall what everybody thinks and would do given the circumstances. In light of how badly the bat attack on the woman was, and how we have seen some views where it's considered a lesser weapon, I wanted to get the general consensus on the scenerio

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For what it's worth... If I am drawing my sidearm, I have made the decision that I am about to die. That's the only reason for me to pull my gun. That's the only thing I will be thinking about in a situation of this kind. Not "it is justified." Not "disparity of force." Nothing like that.

 

"I am about to die."

 

Stay Safe and Carry Responsibly

So given the scenerio proposed, since it's not a gun or knife but still potentially deadly weapon plus numbered 2 to 1, does that fall into a reasonable assumption of possible death?

 

I'm saying its instinctual. At least for me. Any scenario has more variables than we can articulate. How I see it in my head is different from how you see it in your head. I've been attacked by knife. I have been in a fight with multiple opponents. When you're as old as I am you've been in a tight situation or three. To paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart - I may not be able to describe a bad situation, but I know one when I see one.

 

I think, for me, there is a mental checkdown. Bad situation coming my way. Can I get out? Whats my best defense? Is this a fist fight or is this something worse? And so on and so on. And it happens in moments. Faster than you are aware. It's a series of reactions to mental inputs. But in the worst case scenario, I believe pulling my sidearm will be a physical response to the realization that I am about to die. The realization that this is going to happen and there is NO way to avoid it.

 

You could give me 1000 situations and I believe it would be hard for me not to find a way to skee daddle in 999 of them. I want out. I don't want a fight. I don't want a confrontation.

 

The most important part of concealed carry, beyond my training, is to live in condition yellow. That's where I live. I make condition yellow my comfort zone. Hopefully that will keep me out of the fray.

 

So it always will come down to "I am about to die." The reason you are pulling your gun is not because of the situation. You pull your gun because your mind screamed at you - "I am about to die."

 

Stay Safe and Carry Responsibly

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A forcible felony is defined in the Criminal Code of 1961:

"treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual

assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnapping,

kidnapping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement[,] and any other felony

which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual."

"

 

This is the definition of forcible felony. Yes, the same one the prosecutors use.

Great bodily harm usually means broken bones and/or stitches. There was case law where someone got stabbed with a pen, but because no medical treatment was required it was determined to not be great bodily harm by the appellate court.

 

If youre the victim of a burglary, you have the right to use deadly force, whether the burglar is armed or not. This is according to the law and is supported by anecdotal evidence (almost every news story i hear about the homeowner or business owner shooting burglars/robbers, the victims are not charged).

 

However, there have been a couple of cases, one in OK and one in MN, where burglary/robbery victims were charged with murder for continuing to shoot and kill the criminals after they were already shot and incapacitated (Ersland case and Byron Smith case).

In those cases, once the 'threat was stopped', then they no longer had to right to press the attack. At least that's what the juries thought in their cases, and they're doing life in prison for it.

 

So if you do shoot a burglar or robber, you don't have to right to walk up to them as they're moaning in pain and trying to staunch the bleeding, and deliver the coup de grace. No more than a cop would.

 

 

 

 

 

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This may be the wrong place for this question. If so, i apologize.

I can legally carry on my property, and I can legally possess a firearm in my dwelling.

 

By definition a dwelling is:

(720 ILCS 5/2‑6) (from Ch. 38, par. 2‑6)

Sec. 2‑6. "Dwelling". (a) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (:cool: of this Section, "dwelling" means a building or portion thereof, a tent, a vehicle, or other enclosed space which is used or intended for use as a human habitation, home or residence.

 

If I am camping a "Tent" is my dwelling but what about the area around the tent? Is that considered my "temporary property" and can I possess a firearm if I am in my campsite?

 

I do all the time, I am just not sure if it is legal!

 

Well dwelling can also mean a cardboard box which a cardboard box is an enclosed structure

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  • 3 months later...

We need "Castle Doctrine" here in Illinois. It would lift the fog of law.

no we don't.

 

The law in Illinois is actually better than any "castle doctrine'.

 

Read any other State law that includes it to the Illinois law and you will see that is true.

 

Most of the people here have been involved in this for years. We have always been very much aware of how good the self defense laws in Illinois are.

 

There is no "fog". It has been well tested in court on numerous occasions and has been proved to protect the victim quite well.

 

Castle Doctrine is actually more restrictive than the Illinois law. Castle doctrine restricts self defense to your abode while the Illinois affirmative defense law is non-geographical restricetive.

 

How is castle doctrine better than existing illinois law?

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We need "Castle Doctrine" here in Illinois. It would lift the fog of law.

 

 

no we don't.

 

The law in Illinois is actually better than any "castle doctrine'.

 

Read any other State law that includes it to the Illinois law and you will see that is true.

 

Most of the people here have been involved in this for years. We have always been very much aware of how good the self defense laws in Illinois are.

 

There is no "fog". It has been well tested in court on numerous occasions and has been proved to protect the victim quite well.

 

Castle Doctrine is actually more restrictive than the Illinois law. Castle doctrine restricts self defense to your abode while the Illinois affirmative defense law is non-geographical restricetive.

 

How is castle doctrine better than existing illinois law?

Agreed.
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I would talk to your local prosecutor's office for clarification.

I can guarantee you that every county office will have a somewhat different view - just make sure that if you have to pull the trigger, it had better be your last resort after you've exhausted all other reasonable attempts to stop any aggression.

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At least once a month I'm at a gas station filling my tank on the outskirts of a hood. Invariably, I see hood rats approach, ususally in 2s and sometimes 3s.

 

What to do.

 

There's a very simple procedure for staying safe at gas stations where most holdups occur.

 

If you are not armed;

 

Keep your hand on the gas filler that's in your tank and keep your head on a pivot panning 360°. Never take your hand off.

 

They approach by first asking if you have a dollar or some change. Say NO! Say the word NO in a commanding voice. They'll be at 16 to 20 feet out. Equivocation invites them to close that distance.

 

If they take one more step toward you, like the two did to me last week, take that Gas nozzle out of the tank fill and hold it.

 

That is more fearsome to a perp. than a gun. You've just put the imagery of a flame thrower in their mind and they keep walking. Works every time.

 

I tell them, "DO NOT APPROACH ME!" And they don't. I don't care how many of them there are, they'll give you a wide birth.

 

My personal survival lesson when filling the car at Gas stations especially for unarmed ladies. The gas nozzle (brandishing) is a more formidable (psychological) weapon than the Gun.

 

Being a hapless victim is about instant imagery. I've been sized up as a victim many times. I've learned from my mistakes.

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At least once a month I'm at a gas station filling my tank on the outskirts of a hood. Invariably, I see hood rats approach, ususally in 2s and sometimes 3s.

What to do.

There's a very simple procedure for staying safe at gas stations where most holdups occur.

If you are not armed;

Keep your hand on the gas filler that's in your tank and keep your head on a pivot panning 360°. Never take your hand off.

They approach by first asking if you have a dollar or some change. Say NO! Say the word NO in a commanding voice. They'll be at 16 to 20 feet out. Equivocation invites them to close that distance.

If they take one more step toward you, like the two did to me last week, take that Gas nozzle out of the tank fill and hold it.

That is more fearsome to a perp. than a gun. You've just put the imagery of a flame thrower in their mind and they keep walking. Works every time.

I tell them, "DO NOT APPROACH ME!" And they don't. I don't care how many of them there are, they'll give you a wide birth.

My personal survival lesson when filling the car at Gas stations especially for unarmed ladies. The gas nozzle (brandishing) is a more formidable (psychological) weapon than the Gun.

Being a hapless victim is about instant imagery. I've been sized up as a victim many times. I've learned from my mistakes.

Seems to me you need to adjust the places/times that you're filling up.
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