Winnebago County weighs legality of gun resolution
#91
Posted 08 May 2008 - 11:22 AM
#92
Posted 08 May 2008 - 11:25 AM
speedracer815, on May 8 2008, 08:15 AM, said:
BTW, for all you southerners, Illinois's northern border is leading the way.
"God made men,but Colt made them equals"
"Guns don't kill people..husbands who come home early do" -Larry The Cable Guy
"Illinois: Will the Defendant Please Rise?"
"si vis pacem, para bellum"
#93
Posted 08 May 2008 - 11:53 AM
thetimeisnow, on May 8 2008, 12:25 PM, said:
Just to clarify. (and havin' a little fun.)
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
#95
Posted 08 May 2008 - 12:20 PM
Don Gwinn, on May 8 2008, 12:06 PM, said:
Quote
My point is that I don't see how a county ordinance will invalidate the state's law, even within the county's borders.
Someone brought up the point that Chicago "superseded" state law, so this should be OK, too. I don't believe that's how it works. The Chicago law is more restrictive at the local level, not less. A good example of this principle at work is the drug legalization movement. In California and some other places, marijuana is legal under the right circumstances, under state law. But it's still illegal under federal law, and the feds will get you for using it. At the same time, there's nothing keeping local cops from arresting you under the federal statute if the winds change or you get that one guy.
So, Winnebago County issues you a permit. Presumably that means nobody working for the Sheriff's office will arrest you for UUW. But why would the Rockford police or the State Police not arrest you under the UUW statute, and why would that arrest not hold up in court?
Again, it's not that I don't want this to work. I'm ready to be convinced that it could possibly work. Can anyone actually answer this one question:
"If a given act is illegal under Illinois law, but not illegal under county law, in a home-rule county, can a resident of the county be arrested and prosecuted under the Illinois law?"
I believe he can, but I'm not a lawyer.
This was kind of the point I was aiming for in my first post. I believe (I'm not a lawyer either) they would be arrested by a non-Winnebago cop. The issuance of permits seem to be legal, but does the permit have any face value? In court is where the real challenge begins. I may be incredibly naive, but one line of thought goes like this:
U.S. Constitution allows the right to keep and bear arms.
Illinois Constitution allows right, subject to police power (whatever "police power" really means).
Illinois restricts a lot concerning guns, but does not specifically prohibit the issuance of CC permits.
Winnebago county issues permits legally to qualifying county citizens.
Citizens can carry in Winnebago only because county police are not enforcing state laws, but honoring permits instead.
Citizens issued permits find themselves arrested by ISP for violating a state gun law (carrying concealed weapon).
Court has to interpret a big mess.
A judge might simply say state law overrules county without giving this matter deeper thought. In that case we'd find out the permits are legal to issue, but they have no face value. They are useless pieces of paper, a novelty. If this is the case then the sheriff would simply stop wasting his time in issuing them. The "suspect" would be convicted of their criminal charge and then appeal to a higher court. Their challenge? Why do the permits not have value when they were legally issued? Again, they could simply look at state law maintain the conviction. However, with a good attorney, we just might have a chance at winning. Unlikely, but stranger things have happened.
All in all, I don't think the issuance of the permits will be all that big of a legal hassle. Defending those permits in court will be a big, long, and expensive struggle. It would be easier to defend if all Pro 2A counties passed this resolution. Helping this cause might be the attention given by the media to a court case challenge. A positive ruling in the Heller case would help too. Fighting against it would be an incredibly biased Chicago political system so the chances of victory are small, but at least there is a chance.
#96
Posted 08 May 2008 - 12:26 PM
polhms1, on May 8 2008, 06:02 AM, said:
polhms1, on May 7 2008, 04:07 PM, said:
CHAIRMAN SCOTT H. CHRISTIANSEN
404 ELM STREET, ROOM 533, ROCKFORD, IL 61101 (815) 319-4225
R-9 AIELLO, MARY ANN She is on board
2010 521 Renrose Avenue
Loves Park, IL 61111
(H) 877-6833
D-3 AURAND, DOUGLAS R. He is on board
2010 P.O. Box 16026
Loves Park, IL 61132-6026
(
(Voice Mail) 319-4243
D-12 DUCKETT, GEORGE ANNE
2010 429 Orchard Park 61101-6401
(H) 963-4720
R-10 EKBERG, JOHN He is with us
2010 1804 Colorado Ave 61108
(H) 395-1955
(
D-11 ELYEA, KAREN
2008 1302 Broadway 61104
(H) 316-0258
R-4 FIDUCCIA, DAVE Neither Randy or I have talked to him yet but guessing YES
2010 1055 Castlehill Dr 61107
(H) 332-3416
R-14 GAMBINO, FRANK M.
2010 5691 Rainsford Way 61107
(H) 282-1957
(
D-7 GORAL, ANGIE She said no but would reconsider if her constitiuiants said yes
2010 1108 N. Rockton Ave 61103 or if I send the gun owners fact sheet with all the stats &
(H) 964-0686 surveys to her and it makes sense.
D-5 GORSKI, PAUL
2010 4583 Scenic Dr 61109
(H) 874-2916
R-4 HARMON, JOHN H. Neither Randy or I have talked to him yet but guessing YES
2008 806 Phelps Ave. 61108
(H) 397-5166
D-13 HASTINGS, BOB
2010 1728 Constitution Place 61103
(H) 633-4254
D-6 HAWKS, PEARL She wants to see the gun owners fact sheets she is on
2010 713 Lexington Ave 61102 fence neither here nor there
(H) 963-2670
D-11 HOFFMAN, KAREN She is a definate NO I debated with her for over an hour
2010 3323 Carolina Ave 61108 No opening her eyes at all.
(H) 399-5026
D-8 JOHNSON, PHILLIP He said NO but will look at the Gun facts 4.2 that I sent him
2008 4665 Terrang Trl
Machesney Park, IL 61115
(H) 633-7312
R-10 KINNISON, BOB Neither Randy or I have talked to him yet but guessing YES
2008 1620 S Trainer Rd 61108
(H) 395-1654
R-3 LOGAN, KYLE He is with us.
2008 7069 Mullinshire Way
Machesney Park, IL 61115
© 979-6673
R-5 MACKAY, PETER He is with us
2008 7030 Horizon Drive 61109
(H) 962-7031
(
R-1 OLSON, RANDAL He is definatly with us
2010 6423 Thedorff Rd
Pecatonica, IL 61063
(H) 239-2716
(
R-1 OWENS, TOM He is with us
2008 3811 Westlake Village Drive
Winnebago, IL 61088
(H) 335-7591
D-8 PARIS, MELVIN
2010 8220 Scott Lane 61115
(H) 654-1124
R-13 POLLACK, RICK
2008 112 Lawn Place 61103
(H) 963-1047
D-6 REDD, DOROTHY
2008 431 Homestead Ln 61102
(H) 964-8920
(
R-14 SWEENEY, JOHN F. He is with us
2008 3811 Burrmont Rd 61107
© 262-5769
R-7 VECCHIO, KELLY She is with us
2008 321 West State St, Suite 1204 61101
(
R- 2 WEBSTER, JIM He is with us
2008 16205 Boswell Rd
Rockton, IL 61072
(H) 629-2014
R-9 WESCOTT, FRED He is with us
2008 4102 Martina Dr 61114
(815) 708-6006
D-12 WILSON, L.C.
2008 2615 Arthur Ave
Rockford, IL 61101
(H) 962-6108
(
R-2 YESKE, DAVE Neither Randy or I have talked to him yet but guessing YES
2010 11554 Cedar Brook Rd
Roscoe, IL 61073
(hm) 623-8167
#98
Posted 08 May 2008 - 12:31 PM
I just talked to Randy Olson and he gave me the update on who is with us and a few mabye's
[quote name='polhms1' post='87335' date='May 8 2008, 06:02 AM']I have put a note by the board members name that I have talked to.
Out of 28, 11 confirm yes. Am I thinking only 4 of those potential "maybes" need to vote "yes" to see this resolution pass full board vote?
#99
Posted 08 May 2008 - 12:37 PM
Buzzard, on May 8 2008, 12:53 PM, said:
thetimeisnow, on May 8 2008, 12:25 PM, said:
Just to clarify. (and havin' a little fun.)
I know that you were just poking fun Buzzard,and yes some friendly badgering is fine as we all need a break from such serious matters from time to time.
Keep up the good fight!!!!
"God made men,but Colt made them equals"
"Guns don't kill people..husbands who come home early do" -Larry The Cable Guy
"Illinois: Will the Defendant Please Rise?"
"si vis pacem, para bellum"
#100
Posted 08 May 2008 - 12:46 PM
thetimeisnow, on May 8 2008, 01:37 PM, said:
Keep up the good fight!!!!
Absolutely!!
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
#101
Posted 08 May 2008 - 12:51 PM
YEEEEEEEEHAWWWWWWWWWWWWW....
http://www.ripcordassociation.com/
ishmo, "L" Company 75th Infantry (RANGER) 101st Airborne Division (VietNam 1968 - 1969 / 1969 - 1970)
PFC Patrick J. Bohan, 101 Pathfinder Detachment, 101st Airborne Division, KIA, July 10, 1970, on FSB Ripcord
DAV - "Building Better Lives For America's Disabled Veterans" http://www.dav.org/
Paralyzed Veterans of America - http://www.pva.org/
NRA, ISRA, DAV, PVA
#102
Posted 08 May 2008 - 12:54 PM
SirMatthew, on May 8 2008, 01:31 PM, said:
There are 4 people that haven't been talked to that Randy thinks will sign on to the resolution totaling 15 board members signed onto this resolution 15 out of 28 There may be a public forum on this issue in the next month or so can I count on people showing up like they did in Naperville?
#103
Posted 08 May 2008 - 01:00 PM
polhms1, on May 8 2008, 01:54 PM, said:
SirMatthew, on May 8 2008, 01:31 PM, said:
There are 4 people that haven't been talked to that Randy thinks will sign on to the resolution totaling 15 board members signed onto this resolution 15 out of 28 There may be a public forum on this issue in the next month or so can I count on people showing up like they did in Naperville?
Sounds like this is really going to go through. May I ask a question to everyone?
Assuming it does pass in Winnebago county, yet hasn't been tested in court yet---
Should we work as hard as we can to get other counties to do the same? If so, can we get a copy of the final resolution to start circulating around the state?
Downside: This is an untested resolution which very well may not hold up in court. Would we be jumping the gun by asking counties to considering something that hasn't been proven to work?
Just curious as to what the game plan might be as I'm willing to work hard on this too.
#104
Posted 08 May 2008 - 01:15 PM
polhms1, on May 8 2008, 01:54 PM, said:
According to this story, the board will discuss it (I don't know about voting on it)"Thursday"--whether that means tonight, next week, or some other Thursday, I don't know:
Quote
I see there is a board meeting planned for 6:00 tonight.
#105
Posted 08 May 2008 - 01:19 PM
45superman, on May 8 2008, 01:15 PM, said:
polhms1, on May 8 2008, 01:54 PM, said:
According to this story, the board will discuss it (I don't know about voting on it )"Thursday"--whether that means tonight, next week, or some other Thursday, I don't know:
Quote
I see there is a board meeting planned for 6:00 tonight.
#106
Posted 08 May 2008 - 01:29 PM
45superman, on May 8 2008, 02:15 PM, said:
polhms1, on May 8 2008, 01:54 PM, said:
According to this story, the board will discuss it (I don't know about voting on it )"Thursday"--whether that means tonight, next week, or some other Thursday, I don't know:
Quote
I see there is a board meeting planned for 6:00 tonight.
Thear is a board meeting tonight this will be brought up and sent to committee then in the committiee meeting they will schedule the public forum then I will announce it here and everyone can post it on other boards and get as many people to go as humanly possible (mabye have to use the metro center) I talked to Randy and he is going to try to get Doug to sign up on here and answer some questions.
#107
Posted 08 May 2008 - 01:30 PM
According to [url="http://www.wifr.com/home/headlines/18753794"]this story[/url], the board will discuss it (I don't know about voting on it )"Thursday"--whether that means tonight, next week, or some other Thursday, I don't know:
[quote]Aurand and a Republican counterpart on the Winnebago County Board will bring forward a resolution at Thursday night's board meeting asking for Winnebago County residents to be allowed to carry concealed firearms, after meeting certain requirements.[/quote]
I see there [url="http://www.co.winnebago.il.us/AdvHTML_Uploads/fileUploads/CountyBoardAgenda5-8-08.pdf"]is a board meeting[/url] planned for 6:00 tonight.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Hello all, this is John F Sweeney. I represent the 14th District in Winnebago County. I've been reading the discussion on the forum, and there are those of us who appreciate your support. I don't believe we can for sure say how the state is going to react to this, but we all know it's the right thing to do. If our state isn't going to stand behind law abiding citizens, then we need to do what we can. Randy Olson is appointing myself and two other members from our Executive Committee to a sub committee to tweak the wording of our resolution. Stay tuned.
#108
Posted 08 May 2008 - 01:38 PM
SirMatthew, on May 8 2008, 02:00 PM, said:
Assuming it does pass in Winnebago county, yet hasn't been tested in court yet---
Should we work as hard as we can to get other counties to do the same? If so, can we get a copy of the final resolution to start circulating around the state?
This Winnebago CCW resolution could be discussed and debated for weeks, if not months to come. And that's good even if it does not pass because it has further entered the public debate.
Quote
jfsweeney, on May 8 2008, 02:30 PM, said:
You're a big hero around here!!
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
#109
Posted 08 May 2008 - 01:42 PM
Assuming it does pass in Winnebago county, yet hasn't been tested in court yet---
Should we work as hard as we can to get other counties to do the same? If so, can we get a copy of the final resolution to start circulating around the state?[/quote]
I think we should continue to focus on the 2A resolution which has momentum. While it is a non-binding document it has huge symbolism and clearly defines the political position of these counties. We can then use this coalition of pro2A counties as a lobbying tool in the future.
This Winnebago CCW resolution could be discussed and debated for weeks, if not months to come. And that's good even if it does not pass because it has further entered the public debate.
[quote]Downside: This is an untested resolution which very well may not hold up in court. Would we be jumping the gun by asking counties to considering something that hasn't been proven to work?[/quote]
Yes, we would definitely be jumping the gun and wasting peoples time and spending our political capital. I see no harm in showing our full support of Winnebago county's efforts to bring concealed carry to their county. As long as it is done in such a way as not to harm efforts to bring concealed carry to all of Illinois. But I feel it would be prudent to watch this for a while and see how it developes.
[quote name='jfsweeney' post='87503' date='May 8 2008, 02:30 PM']Hello all, this is John F Sweeney. I represent the 14th District in Winnebago County. I've been reading the discussion on the forum, and there are those of us who appreciate your support. I don't believe we can for sure say how the state is going to react to this, but we all know it's the right thing to do. If our state isn't going to stand behind law abiding citizens, then we need to do what we can. Randy Olson is appointing myself and two other members from our Executive Committee to a sub committee to tweak the wording of our resolution. Stay tuned.[/quote]
Welcome to the board, John!
You're a big hero around here!!
[/quote]
Points well taken and I agree, I'll stay focused on the Pro 2A Resolution.
Yes, a big welcome John! Thanks so much for all your efforts!!
#110
Posted 08 May 2008 - 02:02 PM
jfsweeney, on May 8 2008, 02:30 PM, said:
Welcome and Outstanding! We need men like you in office!!!
Please keep us up to date and we will help in any way we can!!!
Illinoiscarry Document Repository
Thanks to everyone who has contributed! Lets keep em coming!
#112
Posted 08 May 2008 - 02:19 PM
jfsweeney, on May 8 2008, 02:30 PM, said:
Welcome to the board, John. We appreciate your efforts, and support. And we are here to help....some very talented and educated people here, with a desire to work and a penchant for success in their endeavors.
Lewis Carroll, 1872
#113
Posted 08 May 2008 - 02:20 PM
Quote
So, this means that Winnebago County would have to establish its own system for issuing apps, accepting apps, processing apps, and verifying whatever requisites demanded have been met. Not to mention the "out-of-county stuff...reciprocity, etc.
In other words, they would have to establish their own system, from the ground up, correct?
I'm all for 'em but I just don't see how they can make it work!!!
...Chinese proverb
#114
Posted 08 May 2008 - 02:27 PM
truthfully I think this would violate the 10th amendment.
Islamofascism didn't kill 50,000,000 people.....but Roe v Wade did.......
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
#115
Posted 08 May 2008 - 02:31 PM
#116
Posted 08 May 2008 - 02:38 PM
jfsweeney, on May 8 2008, 03:31 PM, said:
This might be the single most relevant document per your request. It's recent, it's independent, it's professional, and it was developed just across your northern border (in the only other "No Issue" state). I will send it also to the email address for organizational purposes...but there might be some here who remain unaware of this useful report.
Wisconsin Policy Research Institute Report - Concealed carry: an examination of the facts
http://www.wpri.org/...19/Vol19no4.pdf
Lewis Carroll, 1872
#117
Posted 08 May 2008 - 02:55 PM
Its good to know that entire nations around the globe have seen no benefit whatsoever from weapons ban like what we have in Illinois.
I many fine articles and links on the subject!
Illinoiscarry Document Repository
Thanks to everyone who has contributed! Lets keep em coming!
#118
Posted 08 May 2008 - 03:21 PM
Don Gwinn, on May 8 2008, 12:06 PM, said:
I believe he can, but I'm not a lawyer.
Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.
http://ilbob.blogspot.com/
#119
Posted 08 May 2008 - 03:56 PM
According to [url="http://www.wifr.com/home/headlines/18753794"]this story[/url], the board will discuss it (I don't know about voting on it )"Thursday"--whether that means tonight, next week, or some other Thursday, I don't know:
[quote]Aurand and a Republican counterpart on the Winnebago County Board will bring forward a resolution at Thursday night's board meeting asking for Winnebago County residents to be allowed to carry concealed firearms, after meeting certain requirements.[/quote]
I see there [url="http://www.co.winnebago.il.us/AdvHTML_Uploads/fileUploads/CountyBoardAgenda5-8-08.pdf"]is a board meeting[/url] planned for 6:00 tonight.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Hello all, this is John F Sweeney. I represent the 14th District in Winnebago County. I've been reading the discussion on the forum, and there are those of us who appreciate your support. I don't believe we can for sure say how the state is going to react to this, but we all know it's the right thing to do. If our state isn't going to stand behind law abiding citizens, then we need to do what we can. Randy Olson is appointing myself and two other members from our Executive Committee to a sub committee to tweak the wording of our resolution. Stay tuned.
[/quote]
John:
Thanks for your support! As a resident of your District, YOU GOT MY VOTE!!
#120
Posted 08 May 2008 - 05:45 PM
bob, on May 8 2008, 04:21 PM, said:
Don Gwinn, on May 8 2008, 12:06 PM, said:
I believe he can, but I'm not a lawyer.
Remember the 1991 Luby Cafeteria Massacre of the Unarmed (Kileen, Texas before Texas Concealed Carry) Do we need 23 people to die in a similar incident before we're allowed effective self defense?
Three school masacres have been stopped by civilians with firearms. Two with handguns and the third by a guy with a shotgun. (Pearl, Ms; Appalacian School of Law; Edinboro,Pa)
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