508 replies to this topic

[abolt243]

Ocellairs, on May 7 2008, 06:41 PM, said:

jon70, on May 7 2008, 01:45 PM, said:

Another thought, is there any city or county that requires a gun in your home?  I'm not aware of any. This might be another way to push to be heard at the state level.

...come to think of it, there is a town in southern Illinois. I want to say the town of Gore, but don't take it to the bank.

Goreville I think.  Somebody on here mentioned it just the other day.

AB

[abolt243]

abolt243, on May 7 2008, 04:45 PM, said:

This is great!!  I have serious doubts that it will happen, but that's just my cynical Illannoy self coming out.

I just briefly read through the bill.  If this does pass, it might be setting precedence for future bills.  A few things to watch for:

Reciprocity--I notice that OOS licenses are to be honored, but it needs to be a little more clear that anyone with the OOS permit is OK, not just an out of state resident.  Then you, with your PA,NH,FL,UT permit are good to go.
Also, no mention of reciprocity with any other "county issued" licenses from other counties in the state of IL.

Public Record--The records should be available to any LE agency that needs them.  Should not be available to anyone else in the public or private sector.  Why does someone that is not LEO need to know if I have a RTC license??   To target me as a burglary victim for my guns??  To target me as a first target in a shooting??  To march in front of my house in protest??  No reason for it to be public knowledge as long as I remain law abiding.

Gun Free areas--Be careful to not get these too vague, and allow for the owners/authorities of the areas to supercede the ban if they choose to. I.E. the authorities of a church could allow CC if they wish to.  The prohibition in "any area of a restaraunt serving alchohol" is pretty broad.  Kill that part and let the ".05 BAC" level take care of it.  For instance, I can carry into that restaraunt, I just can't drink while carrying.


Not trying to be critical here, I really think this is great and may be taking it to my local sheriff and SA if it flies at all in Winnebago.  But if there's any chance of changing some of the things above before passage, it might be worth looking into.

Good Job!!
AB

One other thing that should take precedence over any of the points above.  Carry in a vehicle.  The CHL must pre-empt the state firearm transportation law that requires guns to be unloaded and cased.  Ohio had a screwy CHL for a while that required the licensee to disarm, unload and case the gun every time they got in the car.  Be sure you talk to your sheriff 'bout that.  Otherwise the ISP could write tickets all day on the state transportation law.
Just thinkin' and dreamin' of having this in Shelby Co!!

AB

[JKooL]

I sent a link of the news article to Jerry Agar at 890AM WLS. His show is 9-11am Mon-Fri and he's been a great talk show host in support of gun rights! Maybe he'll talk about it and get the word out.

If you want to contact him, go to wlsam.com and click Jerry Agar.

[45superman]

JKooL, on May 7 2008, 08:35 PM, said:

I sent a link of the news article to Jerry Agar at 890AM WLS. His show is 9-11am Mon-Fri and he's been a great talk show host in support of gun rights! Maybe he'll talk about it and get the word out.

If you want to contact him, go to wlsam.com and click Jerry Agar.

Good thinking, JKool--Agar has indeed been a good voice for our side.

[Buzzard]

Channel 23 WIFR TV, Rockford is going to have a report on the CC resolution at 10:00pm.

[Vandal]

Buzzard, on May 7 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

Channel 23 WIFR TV, Rockford is going to have a report on the CC resolution at 10:00pm.

I watched the news story on WIFR.  Doug Aurand interviewed real well.  The WIFR News Team was doubtful and of course the Lame Duck DA was  completely unsupportive.  Sheriff Dick Meyers was neutral.

[Kenny]

I have put a note by the board members name that I have talked to.

polhms1, on May 7 2008, 04:07 PM, said:

WINNEBAGO COUNTY BOARD MEMBERS
CHAIRMAN SCOTT H. CHRISTIANSEN
404 ELM STREET, ROOM 533, ROCKFORD, IL 61101 (815) 319-4225




R-9       AIELLO, MARY ANN                              She is on board
2010 521 Renrose Avenue
Loves Park, IL 61111
(H) 877-6833

D-3 AURAND, DOUGLAS R.                             He is on board
2010 P.O. Box 16026
Loves Park, IL 61132-6026
( 633-9382
(Voice Mail) 319-4243

D-12 DUCKETT, GEORGE ANNE
2010 429 Orchard Park 61101-6401
(H) 963-4720

R-10 EKBERG, JOHN
2010 1804 Colorado Ave 61108
(H) 395-1955
( 398-4150, ext. 222                                                     The smilies are acctually the business phone # (

D-11 ELYEA, KAREN
2008 1302 Broadway 61104
(H) 316-0258

R-4 FIDUCCIA, DAVE
2010 1055 Castlehill Dr 61107
(H) 332-3416

R-14 GAMBINO, FRANK M.
2010 5691 Rainsford Way 61107
(H) 282-1957
( 637-0113

D-7 GORAL, ANGIE                                        She said no but would reconsider if her constitiuiants said yes
2010 1108 N. Rockton Ave 61103        or if I send the gun owners fact sheet with all the stats &
(H) 964-0686                                              surveys to her and it makes sense.

D-5 GORSKI, PAUL
2010 4583 Scenic Dr 61109
(H) 874-2916

R-4 HARMON, JOHN H.
2008 806 Phelps Ave. 61108
(H) 397-5166

D-13 HASTINGS,  BOB
2010 1728 Constitution Place 61103
(H) 633-4254

D-6 HAWKS, PEARL                                                 She wants to see the gun owners fact sheets she is on
2010 713 Lexington Ave 61102                 fence neither here nor there
(H) 963-2670

D-11 HOFFMAN, KAREN                                            She is a definate NO I debated with her for over an hour
2010 3323 Carolina Ave 61108                 No opening her eyes at all.
(H) 399-5026

D-8 JOHNSON, PHILLIP
2008 4665 Terrang Trl
Machesney Park, IL 61115
(H) 633-7312







R-10 KINNISON, BOB
2008 1620 S Trainer Rd 61108
(H) 395-1654

R-3 LOGAN, KYLE                                                      He is with us.
2008 7069 Mullinshire Way
Machesney Park, IL 61115
© 979-6673

R-5 MACKAY, PETER
2008 7030 Horizon Drive 61109
(H) 962-7031
( 962-7313

R-1 OLSON, RANDAL                                                 He is definatly with us
2010 6423 Thedorff Rd
Pecatonica, IL   61063
(H) 239-2716
( 262-1662

R-1 OWENS, TOM
2008 3811 Westlake Village Drive
Winnebago, IL 61088
(H) 335-7591

D-8 PARIS, MELVIN
2010 8220 Scott Lane 61115
(H) 654-1124

R-13 POLLACK, RICK
2008 112 Lawn Place 61103
(H) 963-1047

D-6 REDD, DOROTHY
2008 431 Homestead Ln 61102
(H) 964-8920
( 966-3251

R-14 SWEENEY, JOHN F.
2008 3811 Burrmont Rd 61107
© 262-5769

R-7 VECCHIO, KELLY
2008 321 West State St, Suite 1204 61101
( 962-4019

R- 2 WEBSTER, JIM
2008 16205 Boswell Rd
Rockton, IL 61072
(H) 629-2014

R-9 WESCOTT, FRED
2008 4102 Martina Dr 61114
(815) 708-6006

D-12 WILSON, L.C.
2008 2615 Arthur Ave
Rockford, IL 61101
(H) 962-6108
( 633-7460 ex 515

R-2 YESKE, DAVE
2010 11554 Cedar Brook Rd
Roscoe, IL 61073
(hm) 623-8167

[junglebob]

abolt243, on May 7 2008, 07:27 PM, said:

Ocellairs, on May 7 2008, 06:41 PM, said:

jon70, on May 7 2008, 01:45 PM, said:

Another thought, is there any city or county that requires a gun in your home?  I'm not aware of any. This might be another way to push to be heard at the state level.

...come to think of it, there is a town in southern Illinois. I want to say the town of Gore, but don't take it to the bank.

Goreville I think.  Somebody on here mentioned it just the other day.

AB

Goreville in Johnson County passed an ordinance requiring every household to have a firearm in the 1980's when Morton Grove passed their handgun ban.   They are a long way from Chicago in distance and mindset.   Goverville is a village of about 938 with a very low crime rate.  

If Winnebago County passed this it would be nice if they recognized all other permits like Kentucy does.  This might bring them an incease in tourism from the other "48" states.  Maybe they could issue a non-resident permit to Wisconsinites.

[Ol'Coach]

Goreville and Pittsburg.

[Slappy]

junglebob, on May 8 2008, 06:47 AM, said:

If Winnebago County passed this it would be nice if they recognized all other permits like Kentucy does.

Hold on a sec... if an Illinois county passes this resolution, it legalizes CCW in their county?

Am I reading what you said right????

[speedracer815]

Slappy, this is NOT the Pro2a resolution. That was passed unanimously in Winnebago some time ago. This a separate, independent resolution specifically allowing RTC in Winnebago County.

BTW, for all you southerners, Illinois's northern border is leading the way.   Try to catch up will ya? LOL

[45superman]

Vandal, on May 7 2008, 10:13 PM, said:

Buzzard, on May 7 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

Channel 23 WIFR TV, Rockford is going to have a report on the CC resolution at 10:00pm.

I watched the news story on WIFR.  Doug Aurand interviewed real well.  The WIFR News Team was doubtful and of course the Lame Duck DA was  completely unsupportive.  Sheriff Dick Meyers was neutral.

Here's the link:

Quote

Right now Illinois and Wisconsin are the only two states in the U.S. that entirely outlaw citizens carrying concealed firearms. But two board members are pushing a proposal to change that, starting with Winnebago County.
Looking back at recent tragedies like the N.I.U. shooting prompts many of us to ask what could have been done differently.
"If there had been a person there, who was of age and who had met the qualifications and chose to have concealed carry and the campus didn't have a problem with it, you might not have as many people dead today as you do have," says Winnebago County Board Member Doug Aurand.
Aurand and a Republican counterpart on the Winnebago County Board will bring forward a resolution at Thursday night's board meeting asking for Winnebago County residents to be allowed to carry concealed firearms, after meeting certain requirements.
"You have to have forty hours of training, you have to go through a criminal background check, you have to prove that you're mentally stable, you don't have alcohol problems, you don't have drug problems and you have to be 21 years of age," says Aurand.
Aurand says F.B.I. statistics show states that enact concealed carry laws lower their crime rates.
"Let's not kid ourselves, the bad guys have the weapons," says Aurand. "Now the bad guy, they don't know who's got a gun and who doesn't."
Aurand believes Winnebago County Sheriff Dick Meyers already has the authority to issue gun permits to citizens. But Meyers says that rule only applies in situations like retired police officers, not ordinary residents.
Winnebago County State's Attorney Phil Nicolosi does not believe the proposal has strong legal footing.
"If the state prohibits a certain activity, a municipality or a county cannot in and of itself go in and say, well we're going to create a different law, they cannot do that," says Nicolosi.
But Aurand says the concealed carry law has never been challenged. He believes his interpretation would stand up in court.
Sheriff Meyers tells 23 News he has the authority to arm auxilary sheriff's deputies, but they have to be in uniforms, separate from those the county wears and performing specific law enforcement tasks.
He can also give retired law enforcement permits, after they complete training, but he does not believe those instances carry over to normal citizens.
Aurand argues there is little difference between arming a retired officer and a citizen who goes through training.
If the county board decides to pass the resolution, after a committe examines it, enforcing it would likely end up in court. Either Sheriff Meyers chooses not to issue the permits and someone may sue, or he does issue permits and someone sues the other way. That way a judge would make the final decision.
Aurand admits the optimal solution would be passing a state law, but since that's not happening, he wants to push the issue at the county level.

[Slappy]

speedracer815, on May 8 2008, 08:15 AM, said:

Slappy, this is NOT the Pro2a resolution. That was passed unanimously in Winnebago some time ago. This a separate, independent resolution specifically allowing RTC in Winnebago County.

BTW, for all you southerners, Illinois's northern border is leading the way.   Try to catch up will ya? LOL

so then you can CC in Winnebago??  its not looking to far from Chicago any more...  

[Buzzard]

speedracer815, on May 8 2008, 08:15 AM, said:

This a separate, independent resolution specifically allowing RTC in Winnebago County.

BTW, for all you southerners, Illinois's northern border is leading the way.   Try to catch up will ya? LOL

Yes, I think this RTC Resolution and the 2A Res should prove we're not antigun north of I80!!

[Slappy]

Let me ask the big questions here...

Assume that Winnebago votes to allow CCW within its borders... Is it legal under Illinois law?

Do the State Police then have no jurisdiction? Do the State Police stop Policing Winnebago?

How do you get a Winnebago permit or is it just reciprocity with other states?

[Gary]

As I suggested earlier, if the states attorney is on board, even if it is in verbal form, anybody can arrest anyone they want, but if no charges are filed, the arrest is kinda an act in futility.

[speedracer815]

Slappy, on May 8 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

Let me ask the big questions here...

Assume that Winnebago votes to allow CCW within its borders... Is it legal under Illinois law?

You are correct, that IS the big question. Olson and Aurand believe Sheriff Meyers has the authority to issue permits, and they want the county board to direct him to do so. Sheriff Meyers seems to believe he has that authority but only for retired LEO's. I suspect he is wrong about that, and is relying more on "how we've always done it" than the actual law. State's Attorney Nicolosi seems to think it's not legal, but again, I don't know how much he's actually looked into it. I don't think Nicolosi is pro RTC.

Here is my question: Is there an Illinois law that specifically forbids concealed carry permits?

I don't remember ever seeing one. Obviously Sheriff Meyers doesn't believe there is, since he thinks he can issue a permit to retired LEO's. If there is not, than I see no reason why a county can't allow it via home rule.

I'll say it again: Cook county has already superseded state law on firearms. Wouldn't it be great if we can use that precedent to go the other way?

[flagtag]

speedracer815, on May 8 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

Slappy, on May 8 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

Let me ask the big questions here...

Assume that Winnebago votes to allow CCW within its borders... Is it legal under Illinois law?

You are correct, that IS the big question. Olson and Aurand believe Sheriff Meyers has the authority to issue permits, and they want the county board to direct him to do so. Sheriff Meyers seems to believe he has that authority but only for retired LEO's. I suspect he is wrong about that, and is relying more on "how we've always done it" than the actual law. State's Attorney Nicolosi seems to think it's not legal, but again, I don't know how much he's actually looked into it. I don't think Nicolosi is pro RTC.

Here is my question: Is there an Illinois law that specifically forbids concealed carry permits?

I don't remember ever seeing one. Obviously Sheriff Meyers doesn't believe there is, since he thinks he can issue a permit to retired LEO's. If there is not, than I see no reason why a county can't allow it via home rule.

I'll say it again: Cook county has already superseded state law on firearms. Wouldn't it be great if we can use that precedent to go the other way?

Won't know until we try!  I'll check things out here in Vermilion Co.  (The worst they can do is say "No".)  

[Ol'Coach]

I'm not sure I understand...would this be done by way of "home rule"?  

If so, I think it can't be done, as home rule can only be more restrictive than IL code, not less.

[Slappy]

If it is the Winnebago sheriff that issues CCW permits, is it only for Winnebago County Residents, or can us lowly Cook County folk join in on the fun???

[Ol'Coach]

I guess my biggest question is, what/whose CC permit would he be issuing?

[Buzzard]

So many questions, so few answers!

I will say this.....

If the Pro Second Amendment resolution was our proclamation
that "enough is enough, we're not taking this anymore!"

Then Winnebago's Concealed Carry resolution is the
very first skirmish on the county level!

[abolt243]

Slappy, on May 8 2008, 11:23 AM, said:

If it is the Winnebago sheriff that issues CCW permits, is it only for Winnebago County Residents, or can us lowly Cook County folk join in on the fun???

As I read the proposal that was posted, you must be a Winne resident to get the RTC, but OOS licenses will be honored.  So, if you don't live in  Winne, get your PA license and you can carry in Winne county.!!!

Coach,
If that's the case, how do the HR towns use it to avoid county rule, i.e. Hoffman Estates and the Cabelas thing?  Would it be because they are less restrictive than the county but not less restrictive than the state??

That how that works??

AB

[45superman]

I don't think home rule has anything to do with Cabela's in Hoffman Estates.  There is no (as far as I'm aware of) Cook County ordinance against a business like Cabela's--so they don't need any kind of exemption.  Suffredin/Beavers would have changed that, but they haven't managed to do so (to this point).

Like Coach, my understanding has always been that home rule could make for more restrictive laws, but not less restrictive ones.

[abolt243]

45superman, on May 8 2008, 11:48 AM, said:

I don't think home rule has anything to do with Cabela's in Hoffman Estates.  There is no (as far as I'm aware of) Cook County ordinance against a business like Cabela's--so they don't need any kind of exemption.  Suffredin/Beavers would have changed that, but they haven't managed to do so (to this point).

Like Coach, my understanding has always been that home rule could make for more restrictive laws, but not less restrictive ones.

Yeah, you're right, that was just proposed.  Sorry, I jumped the gun there.  But, aren't there some local communities that avoid Cook county laws via home rule??  Maybe not gun laws, but something??  

Maybe I's totally confused..

AB

[Buzzard]

Ol, on May 8 2008, 11:27 AM, said:

I guess my biggest question is, what/whose CC permit would he be issuing?

As I see it, the Winnebago county board would be directing the Sheriff to issue Winnebago county only concealed carry permits. Whether they can do this....I'd say the legal authority issue would have to be decided at some point in a court of law. The sooner the better.

Garand has weighed in and had this to say on page one of this thread.

Quote

http://illinoiscarry...s...ost&p=87183

Clearly, it would be legal under home rule powers for a county to establish concealed carry. The guys quoted in the article (Winnebago County Sheriff Dick Meyers and Winnebago County first deputy state’s attorney Gary Kovanda) are simply uninformed regarding the state constitution, as many local officials tend to be. No offense to them when I say that. To clarify, I've posted the relevant portion of the Il constitution below.

However, there are two complications, one immediate and one potential.emphasis added

First, if it's true what speedracer said, in that Winnebago has elected NOT to be a home rule government (see b. below) then the county does not have the authority to enact this law. The county could re-elect to become a home rule county, I suppose.

Second, the General Assembly of Illinois has the power to step in and pass a law saying no....home rule powers do not include concealed carry licensing (or to a large extent, whatever else they choose to make state-exclusive). I do not believe that the state currently and specifically has passed a law barring home rule governments from licensing to carry.

But as yet, this resolution hasn't even been presented to the board. And you can bet, this resolution won't be taken lightly, and will be discussed and argued at length!

[Kaeghl]

abolt243, on May 8 2008, 11:41 AM, said:

Slappy, on May 8 2008, 11:23 AM, said:

If it is the Winnebago sheriff that issues CCW permits, is it only for Winnebago County Residents, or can us lowly Cook County folk join in on the fun???

As I read the proposal that was posted, you must be a Winne resident to get the RTC, but OOS licenses will be honored.  So, if you don't live in  Winne, get your PA license and you can carry in Winne county.!!!

Coach,
If that's the case, how do the HR towns use it to avoid county rule, i.e. Hoffman Estates and the Cabelas thing?  Would it be because they are less restrictive than the county but not less restrictive than the state??

That how that works??

AB

I thought it said that too, the first time I scanned down the resolution, but after re-reading it closer, I saw that the OOS permit could be used to satisfy the requirement of safe handgun training, if signed by a law enforcement officer. PA permit would work, but a Florida wouldn't. See my post on the second page, number 41

[Buzzard]

Is Winnebago county home rule or not? Maybe we should consider this first, if it's relevant or not.

[Don Gwinn]

I would be overjoyed if this worked, and I'd start working on Macoupin County board members right away if someone could convince me that I'm not wasting their time, but I have to be the devil's advocate here.

Quote

Here is my question: Is there an Illinois law that specifically forbids concealed carry permits?

There's no law that forbids the permits, but the UUW statute specifically forbids carrying firearms.  Then it sets out legal exemptions, such as unloaded, uncased carry with a FOID card.  A person carrying a loaded gun with a permit from his county doesn't meet the exceptions.  The permit itself is irrelevant as far as the state law goes.
My point is that I don't see how a county ordinance will invalidate the state's law, even within the county's borders.

Someone brought up the point that Chicago "superseded" state law, so this should be OK, too.  I don't believe that's how it works.  The Chicago law is more restrictive at the local level, not less.  A good example of this principle at work is the drug legalization movement.  In California and some other places, marijuana is legal under the right circumstances, under state law.  But it's still illegal under federal law, and the feds will get you for using it.  At the same time, there's nothing keeping local cops from arresting you under the federal statute if the winds change or you get that one guy.  
So, Winnebago County issues you a permit.  Presumably that means nobody working for the Sheriff's office will arrest you for UUW.  But why would the Rockford police or the State Police not arrest you under the UUW statute, and why would that arrest not hold up in court?

Again, it's not that I don't want this to work.  I'm ready to be convinced that it could possibly work.  Can anyone actually answer this one question:

"If a given act is illegal under Illinois law, but not illegal under county law, in a home-rule county, can a resident of the county be arrested and prosecuted under the Illinois law?"
I believe he can, but I'm not a lawyer.

[Kaeghl]

And then again, how does all that marigamarole with the DNR's rules on carrying in 'enclosed case'  fit into all this. re; Shawn's little adventure here a couple years ago?

When I talked to the (now) incoming State's Attourney Prorok just before the election, he was of the mind to let the appealate court decide on all that, then let the law be the law.

If this goes through, it wouldn't help Shawn a bit, but that enclosed case bit in the DNR rules would be just another point to uphold the whole idea of concealed carry.

Just throwing in some more stuff to stir a pot or two.......