69 replies to this topic

[2A4Cook]

And so many dealers did not know about the hearing - ISP did not send a notice out to the FFLs about the hearing.

And therefore, a taking without due process of law.

[InterestedBystander]

Any updates on the GDL enactment and JCAR positions after the open hearings? In early Dec, FFLs of IL posted they had been invited to a meeting with the State Police JCAR staff over the proposed Gun Dealer rules. Has any FFL been certified yet?

Edited by InterestedBystander, 01 January 2020 - 03:50 PM.

[gunuser17]

The FFLs of Illinois post on their facebook page was a little strange since they said the meeting was by invitation only with ISP and not open to all FFLs - but Illinois open meeting laws should apply and I don't see how they could have such a meeting without it being open to the public with proper notice.

[InterestedBystander]

A new post there at FFLIL indicates the ISP has just filed Emergency rules for the Gun Dealer Licensing law. They have not been published to the public yet.

[JTHunter]

A new post there at FFLIL indicates the ISP has just filed Emergency rules for the Gun Dealer Licensing law. They have not been published to the public yet.

In that case, it is likely that those "rules" will be as tangled as the Gordian Knot (aka, a "can of worms").

[Molly B.]

The emergency rules were submitted to the Secretary of State earlier this week so I am assuming they will be printed in this Friday's edition of the Illinois Register.  Please help us keep an eye out for them so we can post a link.  As emergency rules, it is my understanding these rules will be effective immediately and remain in effect for 150 days.

[Keith44]

Gun Rights for Illinois has posted the following article that has a link to the proposed emergency rules:

 

 

https://www.gunright...-license-rules/
 

Here is a direct link to the proposed emergency rules document:

 

https://www.gunright.../download/4252/

 

-Keith.

[Molly B.]

 ISP Dealer Licensing emergency rules.pdf   632.76KB   184 downloads

[steveTA84]

What’s the “emergency”?

[Molly B.]

The deadline for dealers to be in compliance is here and permanent rules have not been approved.

[steveTA84]

Gotcha, thanks! Sounds like a hot mess lol

[ealcala31]

The deadline for dealers to be in compliance is here and permanent rules have not been approved.

Are we talking about the Jan 2020 alarm system? I am a home-based FFL and I believe that one only applies to my business.

[cybermgk]

This one will hurt

 

"Keep ammunition stored securely and out of the reach of customers;"

 

But this part is down right scary AND a registry by FFL

 

a) On or before January 2, 2020, each certified licensee operating 514 a retail location
515 shall implement a searchable electronic record system to track its changing
516 inventory by updating the date a firearm was received or sold, the name and
517 address or the name and license number of the person from whom the firearm was
518 received or sold, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), make,
519 model, caliber or gauge, and serial number of each firearm that it receives or
520 sells. (Section 5-65 of the Act)
521
522 The electronic record system must permit inventory queries by firearm serial
523 number, acquisition date of the firearm, name of the manufacturer or importer,
524 name of the purchaser, address of the purchaser or other transferee, and ATF
525 Form 4473 transferor's transaction serial number. Use of commonly recognized
526 trade names or abbreviations are acceptable when denoting manufacturer or
527 importer.
528
529 c) The electronic record system must denote original entries and be able to track any
530 edits, corrections or amendments.

 

543 f) The electronic record system must have the capacity to provide a periodic printout
544 of all records:
545
546 1) at least semiannually;
547
548 2) upon request by ISP when required by law;
549
550 3) when the system memory is purged;
551
552 4) when the license is terminated; and
553
554 5) sequentially by date of acquisition for all inventory and indicating the date
555 of all sales of inventory conducted during the period covered.

[JTHunter]

You're right.  This ^^^^ IS scary !  Now they know who has what and where they are.  DANGEROUS !!

[InterestedBystander]

The emergency rules were submitted to the Secretary of State earlier this week so I am assuming they will be printed in this Friday's edition of the Illinois Register.  Please help us keep an eye out for them so we can post a link.  As emergency rules, it is my understanding these rules will be effective immediately and remain in effect for 150 days.

Did not get published in the Jan 10, 2020 version of the register.

[InterestedBystander]

full story at link...

https://www.thecente...eb917ff6b6.html

New gun dealer rules filed, but not published leaving Illinois gun stores with questions

...Illinois gun dealers will get details about new state rules that were supposed to take effect a week ago, but were only just filed by the Illinois State Police.

When the Illinois Firearms Dealer License Certification Act was signed last year some aspects were to take effect Jan. 2, but the rules werent finalized. A state police official said those rules were filed this week, but have not yet been published by the Secretary of States Office.

They anticipate them being published next week, ISP Public Information Officer Sgt. Christopher Watson said.

Federal Firearms Licensees of Illinois Executive Director Todd Vandermyde said that was a problem.

Not every small business owner in the state looks to the Illinois Register and checks the Secretary of States publications every week whether or not theyre going to be impacted by something, Vandermyde said.

The rules he has seen mandate things such as electronic record-keeping and video surveillance.

There were well over 5,000 comments turned in opposing the rules that were filed and now a week after the rules were supposed to take effect they turn around and file some emergency rules, Vandermyde said.

The law states that by or on Jan. 2, 2020, each certified licensee maintaining an inventory of firearms for sale or transfer must be connected to an alarm monitoring system or service that will notify local law enforcement of an unauthorized intrusion into the premises of the licensee where the firearm inventory is maintained.

Another aspect of the law states that by or on Jan. 2, 2021, each certified licensee operating a retail location in the State must maintain a video security system and shall maintain video surveillance of critical areas of the business premises, including, but not limited to, all places where firearms are stored, sold, transferred, or carried, and each entrance and exit.

Vandermyde said theres been no clarity on what kinds of electronic record keeping or video surveillance systems will be accepted as compliant with the law, something the rules should spell out.

The lack of clear rules and missed implementation deadlines led to half of the states gun dealers, especially in the more rural areas, not seeking state approval to continue operations.

Last July, one aspect of the law required federally licensed firearms dealers to apply for the state license on top of the federal license. But because there werent clear rules, more than 1,200 gun owners didnt apply for a state license. That was more than half of the federally licensed gun dealers in Illinois.

Vandermyde said another issue he was concerned with was that the delay in Firearm Owner Identification (FOID) card renewals could put gun stores and gun owners in a tough spot.

The Illinois State Police officials said the agency is working to process more than 60,000 applications in a backlog of FOID renewals. They say applicants gun ownership rights arent suspended during application processing, even if the card expires. Applicants must apply for a renewal before the card expires.

Vandermyde said that puts gun dealers in a difficult position.

I dont know any FFL who wants to list an ID such as a FOID card that has an expired date on it, he said....

Edited by InterestedBystander, 10 January 2020 - 11:08 PM.

[Johnnybgood]

Any way to fight this? I am not an FFL dealer but this is just as bad if not worse then the prior rules.

[steveTA84]

"Keep ammunition stored securely and out of the reach of customers;"

But this part is down right scary AND a registry by FFL

a) On or before January 2, 2020, each certified licensee operating 514 a retail location
515 shall implement a searchable electronic record system to track its changing
516 inventory by updating the date a firearm was received or sold, the name and
517 address or the name and license number of the person from whom the firearm was
518 received or sold, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), make,
519 model, caliber or gauge, and serial number of each firearm that it receives or
520 sells. (Section 5-65 of the Act)
521
522 The electronic record system must permit inventory queries by firearm serial
523 number, acquisition date of the firearm, name of the manufacturer or importer,
524 name of the purchaser, address of the purchaser or other transferee, and ATF
525 Form 4473 transferor's transaction serial number. Use of commonly recognized
526 trade names or abbreviations are acceptable when denoting manufacturer or
527 importer.
528
529 c) The electronic record system must denote original entries and be able to track any
530 edits, corrections or amendments.

543 f) The electronic record system must have the capacity to provide a periodic printout
544 of all records:
545
546 1) at least semiannually;
547
548 2) upon request by ISP when required by law;
549
550 3) when the system memory is purged;
551
552 4) when the license is terminated; and
553
554 5) sequentially by date of acquisition for all inventory and indicating the date
555 of all sales of inventory conducted during the period covered.

Thats a registry that the ISP can pull at their convenience or semi-annually. Lawsuit time.

Edited by steveTA84, 11 January 2020 - 01:17 PM.

[ilphil]

This is the biggest pile of manure I have seen in a long time. 

How many more FFLs will be forced out of business by this garbage?

[steveTA84]

https://www.mom-at-a...ented-law-sb337

[Molly B.]

This is the biggest pile of manure I have seen in a long time. 
How many more FFLs will be forced out of business by this garbage?

Many.

[SleepingBirdDog]

 

This is the biggest pile of manure I have seen in a long time. 
How many more FFLs will be forced out of business by this garbage?

Many.

 

That's a feature, not a bug.

[Talonap]

This is the biggest pile of manure I have seen in a long time. 

How many more FFLs will be forced out of business by this garbage?

That's the idea.

[lockman]

If you’re required to get an FFL first and then submit for a state license, I thought the feds required you to comply with local law prior to getting an FFL. Isn’t this a catch 22. On the federal FFL application I can certify I’m in compliance with state law, because those state laws don’t cover me yet. Not until I at least get the license which I ant get until I have the valid federal FFL. ^ this ***

[lilguy]

I’ve visited several LGS in the last week and they’re selling guns at a healthy rate. Im sure most folks don’t care or know that they are having to register their new purchases. I asked in December when I did a transfer if the new form was so the ISP can come get it when they decide to and the dealer very calmly said yes.

[mab22]

Keep in mind that some, not all, private “businesses” see additional requirements as “merely the cost of doing business” and just pass it onto you in higher prices. What is sad is that the customers are the ones who not only pay the additional costs, but now what they bought, and who they are is on record, electronically for the state.

This really does affect purchasers.

 

This is just a gun registry disguised as a gun dealer licensing scheme. They want electronic records, the ability to inspect records when they want, without court issued warrants. They can inspect at least once a year, without a warrant, under the idea of an inspection.

 

Check out what an Illinois court had to say about search warrants in “People ex rel. Madigan v. Stateline Recycling, LLC”. https://law.justia.c.../2-17-0860.html

 

They want databases and the ability to electronically transmit the data, yet they don't even mention encrypting the data, or even care how you secure that data or the systems that house it at the business or at the state level.

 

Can you imagine that data being compromised and now some gangs or criminal enterprise can see who has what that they might want to go and get...

 

Some highlights for you.

 

1. This looks like an electronic registry. See lines 511 - 609

   This one makes it pretty clear.

559 Each licensee operating as a licensed dealer must maintain its firearms acquisition

560 and disposition records on a separate/partitioned database that cannot be

561 intermingled with the records associated with any other license

 

563 i) The electronic record system must be self-contained, without reliance upon

564 invoices or other paper/manual systems to provide any of the above information.

 

572 k) A certified licensee shall make a legible copy of a buyer's or transferee's valid

573 photo identification card whenever a firearm sale transaction takes place. The

574 photocopy shall be attached to the documentation detailing the record of sale.

575 (Section 5-20(a) of the Act)

576

577 l) Each certified licensee shall maintain these records for a period of no less than

578 the time period under 27 CFR 478.129 or any subsequent law that regulates the

579 retention of records.

 

3. No search warrant needed, just call it an inspection.

   1. 334 During an inspection, certified licensees shall make all records, documents

   2. 335 related to the sale, lease, transfer, and/or destruction of firearms, and all firearms

   3. 336 accessible for inspection, upon the request of ISP or assisting law enforcement

   4. 337 agency. (Section 5-35 of the Act)

4. No court supervision, why bother the court. Why do we keep getting further and further from actual judges?

   1. 710 The following factors shall be weighed by the Director or hearing officer

   2. 711 appointed by the Director when determining the severity of the violation and the

   3. 712 resulting fine:

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

Keep in mind that some, not all, private “businesses” see additional requirements as “merely the cost of doing business” and just pass it onto you in higher prices. What is sad is that the customers are the ones who not only pay the additional costs, but now what they bought, and who they are is on record, electronically for the state.

This really does affect purchasers.

 

This is just a gun registry disguised as a gun dealer licensing scheme. They want electronic records, the ability to inspect records when they want, without court issued warrants. They can inspect at least once a year, without a warrant, under the idea of an inspection.

 

Check out what an Illinois court had to say about search warrants in “People ex rel. Madigan v. Stateline Recycling, LLC”. https://law.justia.c.../2-17-0860.html

 

They want databases and the ability to electronically transmit the data, yet they don't even mention encrypting the data, or even care how you secure that data or the systems that house it at the business or at the state level.

 

Can you imagine that data being compromised and now some gangs or criminal enterprise can see who has what that they might want to go and get...

 

Some highlights for you.

 

1. This looks like an electronic registry. See lines 511 - 609

   This one makes it pretty clear.

559 Each licensee operating as a licensed dealer must maintain its firearms acquisition

560 and disposition records on a separate/partitioned database that cannot be

561 intermingled with the records associated with any other license

 

563 i) The electronic record system must be self-contained, without reliance upon

564 invoices or other paper/manual systems to provide any of the above information.

 

572 k) A certified licensee shall make a legible copy of a buyer's or transferee's valid

573 photo identification card whenever a firearm sale transaction takes place. The

574 photocopy shall be attached to the documentation detailing the record of sale.

575 (Section 5-20(a) of the Act)

576

577 l) Each certified licensee shall maintain these records for a period of no less than

578 the time period under 27 CFR 478.129 or any subsequent law that regulates the

579 retention of records.

 

3. No search warrant needed, just call it an inspection.

   1. 334 During an inspection, certified licensees shall make all records, documents

   2. 335 related to the sale, lease, transfer, and/or destruction of firearms, and all firearms

   3. 336 accessible for inspection, upon the request of ISP or assisting law enforcement

   4. 337 agency. (Section 5-35 of the Act)

4. No court supervision, why bother the court. Why do we keep getting further and further from actual judges?

   1. 710 The following factors shall be weighed by the Director or hearing officer

   2. 711 appointed by the Director when determining the severity of the violation and the

   3. 712 resulting fine:

 

 

That's literally creating a searchable registry that is in violation of previous Federal law.

[Bitter Clinger]

Well, I guess I won't be buying any more guns in IL.

[mab22]

Keep in mind that some, not all, private “businesses” see additional requirements as “merely the cost of doing business” and just pass it onto you in higher prices. What is sad is that the customers are the ones who not only pay the additional costs, but now what they bought, and who they are is on record, electronically for the state.
This really does affect purchasers.
 
This is just a gun registry disguised as a gun dealer licensing scheme. They want electronic records, the ability to inspect records when they want, without court issued warrants. They can inspect at least once a year, without a warrant, under the idea of an inspection.
 
Check out what an Illinois court had to say about search warrants in “People ex rel. Madigan v. Stateline Recycling, LLC”. https://law.justia.c.../2-17-0860.html
 
They want databases and the ability to electronically transmit the data, yet they don't even mention encrypting the data, or even care how you secure that data or the systems that house it at the business or at the state level.
 
Can you imagine that data being compromised and now some gangs or criminal enterprise can see who has what that they might want to go and get...
 
Some highlights for you.
 

• 
  This looks like an electronic registry. See lines 511 - 609
  This one makes it pretty clear.

559 Each licensee operating as a licensed dealer must maintain its firearms acquisition
560 and disposition records on a separate/partitioned database that cannot be
561 intermingled with the records associated with any other license
 
563 i) The electronic record system must be self-contained, without reliance upon
564 invoices or other paper/manual systems to provide any of the above information.
 
572 k) A certified licensee shall make a legible copy of a buyer's or transferee's valid
573 photo identification card whenever a firearm sale transaction takes place. The
574 photocopy shall be attached to the documentation detailing the record of sale.
575 (Section 5-20(a) of the Act)
576
577 l) Each certified licensee shall maintain these records for a period of no less than
578 the time period under 27 CFR 478.129 or any subsequent law that regulates the
579 retention of records.
 

• 
  No search warrant needed, just call it an inspection.
  
• 
  334 During an inspection, certified licensees shall make all records, documents
  
• 
  335 related to the sale, lease, transfer, and/or destruction of firearms, and all firearms
  
• 
  336 accessible for inspection, upon the request of ISP or assisting law enforcement
  
• 
  337 agency. (Section 5-35 of the Act)

[/*]

• 
  No court supervision, why bother the court. Why do we keep getting further and further from actual judges?
  
• 
  710 The following factors shall be weighed by the Director or hearing officer
  
• 
  711 appointed by the Director when determining the severity of the violation and the
  
• 
  712 resulting fine:

[/*]

 
That's literally creating a searchable registry that is in violation of previous Federal law.

So what do we do about it? Do we sound the alarm somewhere?
I’m a little surprised this wasn’t caught already.

[Upholder]

I don't understand why this entire law has not yet been challenged due to Pritzker signing it and a previous General Assembly passing it.