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Home daycare and DCFS handgun prohibition


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#1 Coach Ice

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 08:39 AM

The issue I am faced with….my wife operates a DCFS licensed home daycare and their position is that I cannot have a handgun on the premises of my home due to the Child Care Act of 1959 (Rev. Stat. 1991. Ch. 23. pars.221 et seq.).

 

My rebuttal to them is that the Public Act 098-0063 Firearm Concealed Carry Act, Section 65(a)(2) specifically allows me to do just that provided I comply with the provision of that paragraph. Further more Public Act 098-0063 Firearm Concealed Carry Act, Section 90 Preemption, has the language that states

 

 “…Any ordinance or regulation, or portion thereof, enacted on or before the effective date of this Act that purports to impose regulations or restrictions on licensees or handguns and ammunition for handguns in a manner inconsistent with this Act shall be invalid in its application to licensees under this Act on the effective date of this Act…."

 

I am a CCL holder and I would like to get clarification on which statute take precedence. And if thePublic Act 098-0063 does take precedence how do we get the DCFS to recognizePublic Act 098-00633 and release their restrictions on CCL holders.

 

Anyone else face this same issue?



#2 soylentgreen

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 10:47 AM

Based on United States vs. Miller, I can't see how they can enforce these rules. HOWEVER, I think it'd make sense for you to spend a few bucks and talk to a lawyer about it.



#3 gLockedandLoaded

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 11:27 AM

This thread may be of interest to you:
http://illinoiscarry...showtopic=62372

#4 mikew

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 12:10 PM

Based on United States vs. Miller, I can't see how they can enforce these rules.

Can you explain how you arrived at that?



#5 BigJim

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 12:35 PM

I would think as long as you don't carry in the rooms where the kids are you should be OK. After all it is your house. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
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#6 Coach Ice

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 09:50 AM

I would think as long as you don't carry in the rooms where the kids are you should be OK. After all it is your house.

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As far as DCFS is concerned I cannot have a handgun on the premises. Meaning I cannot have a handgun anywhere on my property or in my home or my wife's license is in jeopardy. I had to sign a form that states there are no handguns on the premises. Long guns are on as long as they are lock away and disassembled and stored spectate of ammo.


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#7 SiliconSorcerer

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 01:02 PM

If she runs it why do you have to sign anything?

Would you sons and daughters have to sign it assuming you have any?

No handguns at the time you sign it?

Do you have to put up a GFZ sign on every entrance?

How would they know did you also sign they can search the place anytime they want?


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#8 Coach Ice

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 01:43 PM

If she runs it why do you have to sign anything?
Would you sons and daughters have to sign it assuming you have any?
No handguns at the time you sign it?
Do you have to put up a GFZ sign on every entrance?
How would they know did you also sign they can search the place anytime they want?


Ok, sorcerer....

Anyone in the household over the age of 18 must comply and sign that they will comply with all the DCFS statutes.

I have 5 sons all under the age of 18

No hand guns on the premises while holding a valid home daycare license

No GFZ is necessary, but they did propose it this year. It just did not pass.

Holding a valid home daycare license...DCFS has the right to show up at any time to inspect for violations.

Bottom line is for her to renew her license, which is a significant portion of our lively hood, the form had to be signed. And if I put my name to it I'm sure as heck going comply or we're direct violation. So the issue still remains that the DCFS is violating my rights as a CCL holder. So the ISRA attorney is sending a letter to DCFS telling them that they are incorrectly in their interpretation and they need to change their position.


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#9 BigJim

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:08 PM

What about when there aren't any kids on the premises? Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
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#10 Coach Ice

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:27 PM

What about when there aren't any kids on the premises?

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According to DCFS....weather kids are present or not does not matter. I asked if as long as I didn't have any handguns here during business hours if I could work around their statute. Their answer was the statute applies all the time not just during daycare business hours or when kids were present.


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#11 Hipshot Percussion

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:17 PM

Contact a lawyer that is versed in the Second Amendment and the CCL laws here in Illinois.


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#12 Coach Ice

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:41 PM

Contact a lawyer that is versed in the Second Amendment and the CCL laws here in Illinois.


The ISRA attorneys are helping. We're looking for others who have the same issue.


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#13 lockman

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:05 PM

What about when there aren't any kids on the premises?

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According to DCFS....weather kids are present or not does not matter. I asked if as long as I didn't have any handguns here during business hours if I could work around their statute. Their answer was the statute applies all the time not just during daycare business hours or when kids were present.


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DCFS is mixing apples and oranges. They are misinterpreting the restrictions under the FCCA. In in your case the FCCA regulations do not even apply. Notwithstanding any DCFS regulation, your exemption to carry on your own property under 720 ILCS 5-24 is unaffected.

Holding the licensee responsible for a breach by a third-party seems to me a bit draconian. The whole home daycare licensing thing is a crock anyway.

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#14 Xwing

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 08:27 AM

That is an absolutely terrible and absurd interpretation.  It speaks much more to DCFS' hatred of the second amendment than it does to actual law.  I suspect everyone in their leadership is a committed hoplophobe.  Hopefully the ISRA lawyer will get them to see reason.


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#15 soylentgreen

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:45 AM

 

Based on United States vs. Miller, I can't see how they can enforce these rules.

Can you explain how you arrived at that?

 

 

Sorry, I meant DC vs HELLER. The case said that it's your right to keep firearms in your home for lawful purposes. I'd say that trumps any regulations.



#16 SiliconSorcerer

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 11:06 AM

This s....s I think I would just take the keep my mouth shut route, they can come at anytime but I don't think they can search your home and I doubt you have firearms laying out on the kitchen table. 

Or if it really says you can't have firearms on site while holding the license, pull a Slick Willy and don't HOLD the license leave it hang on the wall ;) 


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#17 Coach Ice

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 11:24 AM

This s....s I think I would just take the keep my mouth shut route, they can come at anytime but I don't think they can search your home and I doubt you have firearms laying out on the kitchen table. 

Or if it really says you can't have firearms on site while holding the license, pull a Slick Willy and don't HOLD the license leave it hang on the wall ;)

 

you are correct that I don't have anything laying around. But the simple semantic fixes you are proposing still require me to break statute and expose myself, wife, and family to potential legal action. The whole point in any of this to to make sure our right are protected not see how we can circumvent this statute or that statute. We need to expose these kind of wrongful infringements, not figure out how to make sure we "don't get caught". 



#18 SiliconSorcerer

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 12:30 PM

 

This s....s I think I would just take the keep my mouth shut route, they can come at anytime but I don't think they can search your home and I doubt you have firearms laying out on the kitchen table. 

Or if it really says you can't have firearms on site while holding the license, pull a Slick Willy and don't HOLD the license leave it hang on the wall ;)

 

you are correct that I don't have anything laying around. But the simple semantic fixes you are proposing still require me to break statute and expose myself, wife, and family to potential legal action. The whole point in any of this to to make sure our right are protected not see how we can circumvent this statute or that statute. We need to expose these kind of wrongful infringements, not figure out how to make sure we "don't get caught". 

 

 

I understand but just opening this can of worms may put you out of business for a long time even if in the end it's corrected and I suspect some time without a license might just end the business entirely without recovery.   I don't know if I would risk that. 


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#19 lockman

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 12:31 PM

 

This s....s I think I would just take the keep my mouth shut route, they can come at anytime but I don't think they can search your home and I doubt you have firearms laying out on the kitchen table. 

Or if it really says you can't have firearms on site while holding the license, pull a Slick Willy and don't HOLD the license leave it hang on the wall ;)

 

you are correct that I don't have anything laying around. But the simple semantic fixes you are proposing still require me to break statute and expose myself, wife, and family to potential legal action. The whole point in any of this to to make sure our right are protected not see how we can circumvent this statute or that statute. We need to expose these kind of wrongful infringements, not figure out how to make sure we "don't get caught". 

 

 

Break what statute?  I thought you were dealing with an agency rule.


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#20 Blackbeard

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 12:36 PM

I don't think the state preemption on handgun laws is going to save you.  They can't tell you you can't keep a gun, but they CAN tell you you can't have a daycare if you do. 


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#21 Glock23

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 12:49 PM

I don't think the state preemption on handgun laws is going to save you.  They can't tell you you can't keep a gun, but they CAN tell you you can't have a daycare if you do. 

 

This.

 

Same thing as Chicago's liquor licensing scam which requires businesses to post the GFZ signs.

 

I agree, though, that it will take someone challenging that rule in court before anything changes... as it is, many businesses comply because they think the licensing rule trumps the state preemption.


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#22 Uncle Harley

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 01:37 PM

i don't think a lawyer will do any good either  unless you find  a precedent that states a govt agency can't force you to  to " volenteeringly" give up your rights, by holding a license over your head.    They do the same thing with a taxidermy license.  I had to sign off on my 4th amendment right in order to obtain a taxidermy license. Basically while I held the taxidermy license, the DNR could come rifle through anything that " may contain wildlife OR PARTS THERE OF "  without a search warrant or even a notice........  No signature, no license.  There was a case in PA where a taxidermist took the PA game commision to court and won with  that court stating  that they can't make you give up rights by holding a license for business hostage, but it has no bindings here that im aware of.   

 

 

here is that case,  not sure if/ how it would apply here, but it's the same principal.   

 

 

http://caselaw.findl...it/1437194.html


Edited by Uncle Harley, 25 October 2016 - 01:47 PM.

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#23 Kevin C

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 08:38 AM

My wife ran Daycare out of our home for 7 years, we went through the background checks and fingerprinting. All the time I owned handguns , always kept them locked up in our bedroom. DCFS has come through many times for their "surprise" inspections, never ever asked about weapons and never even went into our bedroom. Not sure how it is now but when when my wife had Daycare, you had to declare to DCFS what rooms are part of the daycare facility. DCFS has many hoops and rules to jump through but, we never encountered or were asked about our Firearms. Yes based on the CCL, you can never carry in a daycare facility while Daycare is in session.



#24 BigJim

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 11:45 AM

Short of leaving a gun on the night stand how would they know you have a gun in your bedroom? It's not like they're going to rummage through your dresser drawers. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
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#25 Coach Ice

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 04:33 PM

My wife ran Daycare out of our home for 7 years, we went through the background checks and fingerprinting. All the time I owned handguns , always kept them locked up in our bedroom. DCFS has come through many times for their "surprise" inspections, never ever asked about weapons and never even went into our bedroom. Not sure how it is now but when when my wife had Daycare, you had to declare to DCFS what rooms are part of the daycare facility. DCFS has many hoops and rules to jump through but, we never encountered or were asked about our Firearms. Yes based on the CCL, you can never carry in a daycare facility while Daycare is in session.



We use the entire house for daycare so we don't have the room declaration option. And the DCFS child care act specifically states premises not rooms. And yes he flat out asked about the status of any and all firearms and ammunition on the premises.

My ability to carry during daycare is not what I stated my issue was. Although I disagree with your assessment of the CCL never being able carry in a daycare. It's a home daycare not a center therefore I believe I can carry in my home based on the CCL statute and I have multiple attorneys that agree with me.

My issue is I have multiple had guns and based on position of DCFS I cannot have them on the premises even though they are locked in a safe.


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#26 lawman

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 09:42 PM

This s....s I think I would just take the keep my mouth shut route, they can come at anytime but I don't think they can search your home and I doubt you have firearms laying out on the kitchen table. 

Or if it really says you can't have firearms on site while holding the license, pull a Slick Willy and don't HOLD the license leave it hang on the wall ;)

 

LMAO.  I like it, but even Willie wasn't slick enough to pull it off.  He got his Arkansas law license suspended for five years for such shenanigans, not to mention the $25K fine.

 

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#27 vito

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 02:08 PM

You could rent a storage unit off premises for your firearms and ammunition, other than the one you carry on your person, which is not stored on the premises. I am not an attorney and I am not giving you legal advice, but it seems that you could avoid a conflict with their regulations by doing what I recommend. Even when sleeping you could have your gun close enough that in the event of an unannouned DCFS search the gun would be on your person before you opened the front door. I am assuming that unannounced searches by DCFS would not involve them smashing down your door in the middle of the night to surprise you. 

 

Some other suggestions: move out and live separately from your wife, but visit frequently (who's to say a visit cannot be daily and last most of the day?), relocate to a less corupt and over regulated state, give up your guns and carry a large knife or hatchet for self defense. 


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#28 SiliconSorcerer

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:16 AM

I guess I'm back to another "Slick Willy" what's a premises? 

If you rent your house, all except the bedroom, to the daycare the daycare "premises" does not include the bedroom where the guns are stored. 

I mean if you rent a place in a strip mall it can't be dependent on what the other renters have, there could be gun shop next door. 

I mean you might have to put a lock on the bedroom door but....


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#29 Coach Ice

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:30 AM

I guess I'm back to another "Slick Willy" what's a premises? 
If you rent your house, all except the bedroom, to the daycare the daycare "premises" does not include the bedroom where the guns are stored. 
I mean if you rent a place in a strip mall it can't be dependent on what the other renters have, there could be gun shop next door. 
I mean you might have to put a lock on the bedroom door but....



It seems as though there are a number of people that just want to advise me on how to "get around" the problem. Not address how the problem needs to be fixed at the legal level. I CANNOT and WILL NOT put my wife's daycare and part of our livelihood at jeopardy pulling some "slick Willy" type stuff, or renting a storage unit, or moving out of my house. Now I understand that the majority of that stuff is said tongue-in-cheek, but the issue still remains that there is no work around and I'm not willing to lie to a government agency. If something would happen during an inspection of some kind the I've Commited a felony trying to pull a slick Willy, etc.

#30 vito

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:54 AM

I think I've long passed the point where I feel on obligation to inform the government of anything. There was a time when if an FBI agent or State Police official asked me to do something which seemed odd, and they told me that they could not share the reasons for the action, but to please trust them that what was being done was for the good of our country, or state, whatever, I would likely have cooperated based upon trust. If that should occur today my response would be "heck no", and "where is your warrant?" and "lets meet with my attorney and then I will give you an answer". 


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