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#151 bobapunk

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 11:45 AM

It seems that the 35 day window starts the day the letter is mailed, not the day it is received.

a decision shall be deemed to have been served either when a copy of the decision is personally delivered or when a copy of the decision is deposited in the United States mail, in a sealed envelope or package, with postage prepaid, addressed to the party affected by the decision at his or her last known residence or place of business.



#152 cgs

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 11:49 AM

WOW, got to admit no one I talked to down here knew you could apply early and I can't find any info that said you could and I had my E-PRINTS done on 12/18 and no one said anything,is this a cook county thing?

That's why ya gotta come here more often. News up to the minute.
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#153 bobapunk

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 11:52 AM


So, I am trying to get a better understanding of the role of the CCLRB (Concealed Carry License Review Board) and the appeals process.

It seems as if there are 2 ways for an application to get to the CCLRB.

Either, LEO Objection

Or, through the appeals process.

The appeals process route is ONLY available if the ISP denied you and that denial was NOT based upon a determination of the CCLRB.


As far as I can see, if the ISP denies an application, it can only be appealed to the Director, not to the Board, which is only involved in evaluating local LEO objections.



I am having a difficult time reconciling this...

The CCLRB reviews objection from local LEO and the "Department". How then, is it possible to get a denial that did not flow through the CCLRB?

A flow chart if this "shall issue" law would be really helpful...

#154 skinnyb82

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:28 PM

The objection system appears to somewhat mirror Minnesota's scheme, except that Sheriffs are the issuing authority and they have discretion to deny applicants based on info they have on the applicant. The appeal system appears to be identical or close enough as Sheriffs who deny permits based on an applicant's history (same criteria as Illinois...mental health, criminal, etc) but it's a second review by the Sheriff or judicial review. Permits were initially denied then, on appeal, issued to: a convicted felon (manufacturing of crack-cocaine), a person suspected of shooting a cop, and a confirmed gang member. The law enforcement community was up in arms over this stuff but the second that we strip people of civil liberties for being suspected of something (not even arrested) then let's just toss out the presumption of innocence. Numerous permit denials based on a history of mental health, erm...issues (including behavior which would constitute being labeled a clear and present danger), were appealed and the denial reversed, permits issued. I digress.

I would LOVE to see a flowchart of the process here. If there is any kind of information system, the first step would be to create a flowchart as a guide for building the EDI or whatever they call it. Data interchange of some kind. Then again this is Illinois where every day is opposite day.

Alternatively, it would be nice to know what "Under Board Review" actually means since it may or may not mean that an application has been sent to the actual review board.

It would also be nice if, upon a status change, the ISP would actually send out an email rather than having to check your app all of the time since I wouldn't have known that my app was denied had I not checked on it.

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#155 gpsgreek

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:34 PM

People. All this back and forth is just freaking us, the denied, out. I don't think anyone truly knows what the criteria is because no one has received any email or letter yet. Mine may be stupid, your may be more serious. When we start getting our denials we should share as much info so that we can all be able to figure out how these people are thinking.

Reading the law over and over doesn't mean too much because they have loopholes and so do we. We just haven't found ours yet. As I and others have said... This is all new to them and to us. All the apps that came in all at once and they were short staffed so I doubt any of thee agencies have the time to go through each app objectively. The permits that will/may be issued this week is the instructors. The applied 20 days before us and there were only couple of thousand instead of tens of thousands.

We should start posting facts instead of speculations because I personally have a knot in my stomach that a similar name may have flagged this but I have to jump through hoops to prove I'm right instead of the other way around.

Good luck to all and I will continue to post as I find more.

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#156 cnwfan3

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:00 PM

Does anyone know if any of the instructors that applied got put under board review or denied? I'm just curious if they are looking at the instructors the same way they are looking at the rest of us.

#157 larryrxtx

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:15 PM

Does anyone know if any of the instructors that applied got put under board review or denied? I'm just curious if they are looking at the instructors the same way they are looking at the rest of us.

The "lawn dart" stated in a press release he had objected to 14 instructors, FWIW.
http://chicago.cbslo...y-applications/

#158 skinnyb82

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:22 PM

Does anyone know if any of the instructors that applied got put under board review or denied? I'm just curious if they are looking at the instructors the same way they are looking at the rest of us.


Why wouldn't they examine instructors using the same level of scrutiny as they do with anyone else who applies for a permit? I would be extremely disturbed if instructors were given preferential treatment, creating two classes of citizens.


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#159 Dr. Rat

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:35 PM



So, I am trying to get a better understanding of the role of the CCLRB (Concealed Carry License Review Board) and the appeals process.

It seems as if there are 2 ways for an application to get to the CCLRB.

Either, LEO Objection

Or, through the appeals process.

The appeals process route is ONLY available if the ISP denied you and that denial was NOT based upon a determination of the CCLRB.


As far as I can see, if the ISP denies an application, it can only be appealed to the Director, not to the Board, which is only involved in evaluating local LEO objections.



I am having a difficult time reconciling this...

The CCLRB reviews objection from local LEO and the "Department". How then, is it possible to get a denial that did not flow through the CCLRB?

A flow chart if this "shall issue" law would be really helpful...


As far as I can see, the only time the Department is directed to send an app to the Board because of the Department's own objection is when that objection deals with the "danger to himself or others" criterion or the "so many arrests in so many years" criterion. If they object because a disqualifying event like a felony conviction or drug treatment shows up, I don't think the Board has to see it. Like you say, a flowchart would be great.

#160 bobapunk

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:44 PM

Dr. Rat,

I guess that makes sense... It just seems odd to me that the ISP would file an objection instead of just denying the application. I suppose there are things that would result in an "automatic" denial and other things that would trigger an objection more in-depth review. It also seems odd that the ISP would send applications that they felt needed further review to the CCLRB instead of doing the investigative work themselves... It seems like the ISP objection going to the CCLRB could provide an extra layer of protection, but it also seems to make filing an appeal a much more difficult process.

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:50 PM

Does anyone know if any of the instructors that applied got put under board review or denied? I'm just curious if they are looking at the instructors the same way they are looking at the rest of us.

At least 14 instructors got darted.
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#162 cgs

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:51 PM

Does anyone know if any of the instructors that applied got put under board review or denied? I'm just curious if they are looking at the instructors the same way they are looking at the rest of us.


Why wouldn't they examine instructors using the same level of scrutiny as they do with anyone else who applies for a permit? I would be extremely disturbed if instructors were given preferential treatment, creating two classes of citizens.


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The law doesn't give opportunity for Instructor LEO objection until after the instructor applies for FCCL.
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#163 Dr. Rat

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 05:11 PM

Dr. Rat,

I guess that makes sense... It just seems odd to me that the ISP would file an objection instead of just denying the application. I suppose there are things that would result in an "automatic" denial and other things that would trigger an objection more in-depth review. It also seems odd that the ISP would send applications that they felt needed further review to the CCLRB instead of doing the investigative work themselves... It seems like the ISP objection going to the CCLRB could provide an extra layer of protection, but it also seems to make filing an appeal a much more difficult process.


Well, like you say, the criteria that would require the Department to send denials over to the Board for review are subjective, while those they can use to deny on their own are objective. For the "danger to others" criterion, I guess it's designed so that the Board is the only entity that can decide if there's a preponderance of the evidence to uphold those objections. That makes sense from a consistency point of view. Similarly, the "too many arrests" criterion isn't an automatic disqualifier, but rather flags an app to allow the Board to take a closer look at those people.

I'm certainly no expert on this, but for some reason I find dissecting this law an interesting intellectual exercise. :thinking:

#164 danbrew

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:08 PM

I'd like to offer some comments to those that have been denied. First, our thoughts are with you. I would encourage you to get with Todd so that they can work with you to determine next steps.

My non-legal two cents is that you now have a very real concern that the ISP may decide to revoke your FOID and come get your guns. If it were me I would transfer every single firearm out of your home to a trusted friend. Make sure that you go through the new ISP individual to individual transfer process (http://isp.state.il....oid/foidp2p.cfm). If the cops *do* come and get your guns, be prepared for a knock on the door. If the cops do get your guns, good luck getting them back. Even if you do get them back, they're sure not going to be cared for the same way you care for them. They could end up tossed in a box under a leaky water pipe. They could end up engraved with your name & case # on the side of 'em. Don't put yourself through that. Again, not trying to cause undue alarm, but I would absolutely transfer to a friend or get them out of state immediately.

Consult an attorney about how to respond.

Good luck and keep us posted.

#165 Stargeezer

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:14 PM

I would LOVE to see a flowchart of the process here. If there is any kind of information system, the first step would be to create a flowchart as a guide for building the EDI or whatever they call it. Data interchange of some kind. Then again this is Illinois where every day is opposite day.


Will this work?

http://thumb1.shutte...l-133440530.jpg

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#166 gpsgreek

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:18 PM


Dr. Rat,

I guess that makes sense... It just seems odd to me that the ISP would file an objection instead of just denying the application. I suppose there are things that would result in an "automatic" denial and other things that would trigger an objection more in-depth review. It also seems odd that the ISP would send applications that they felt needed further review to the CCLRB instead of doing the investigative work themselves... It seems like the ISP objection going to the CCLRB could provide an extra layer of protection, but it also seems to make filing an appeal a much more difficult process.


Well, like you say, the criteria that would require the Department to send denials over to the Board for review are subjective, while those they can use to deny on their own are objective. For the "danger to others" criterion, I guess it's designed so that the Board is the only entity that can decide if there's a preponderance of the evidence to uphold those objections. That makes sense from a consistency point of view. Similarly, the "too many arrests" criterion isn't an automatic disqualifier, but rather flags an app to allow the Board to take a closer look at those people.

I'm certainly no expert on this, but for some reason I find dissecting this law an interesting intellectual exercise. :thinking:



so what about those that have no arrests, no run ins with LE or no apparent physical/mental disabilities? How do they get denied and what can we do??

I just got home and there is no mail from anyone important in the box. I am dying to read what they found. I did however call in a favor and talk to a lawyer.He himself has applied for a CCL license. He said that after talking with colleagues he would not find it far fetched that a similar name could flag an application. He also said that the ISP would have to spell out any denials in writing and you would have to appeal to an Admin type Hearing or to the Board itself. If you win... great. If you lose, you would have to fight it out on the county court level. He said you probably would not win there because in order to get there they have a solid case against you and it would not be just a "witch hunt". The time to appeal is 35 days but there is nothing he saw that would say that the times starts at denial or date of letter. Either way, do not wait to see the letter. Contact a lawyer or the ISP after a week to get an answer and start the process. It may be easy task to correct or it may be an uphill battle but it will have to be done. The ISP is not going to prove that you are not you, you have to prove that you are not someone else. I am not advertising but if someone is interested in getting my lawyers number than message me and I can forward it to you.

I am excited to see a new thread that says APPROVED and I am excited for those that are. Hopefully the denied few will be able to post happy comments there also very very soon. Congrats.

I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.   -Clint Eastwood

 

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#167 RC_Tactical

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:13 PM

If you applied before 1/5 are you being denied due to fact you were not a instructor,I thought only cc instructors could apply early.


Where do people get this info? The applications opened for "regular" non-instructors WITH prints on the 2nd of Jan.

#168 twintowers

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:05 PM

Hey guys, not sure the problems with the denials at this point as ISP has not sent out any letters or emails. I can tell you one thing,and things Instructors should tell their students. After viewing the applicants status during the 30 day LEO objection period I have observed an unfortunate amount of denials. These denials appeared to be due to improper applications. Examples I personally observed: Photo: applicants not using a REAL photo. Saw several denials because people submitted a scanned copy of a FOID or DL, they did not use a recent, real photo. Observed several photos that appeared to be about 1/8" x 1/8", could not even determine if the photo was of a human or not. Certificates: Observed a good number of certificates that were NOT signed by the applicant. Observed a few certificates that were incomplete; curriculum number, instructor ID, etc. Hopefully GPS's denial is due to one of these minor reasons and not anything serious.

#169 Timothy87

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:10 PM

I just checked my app and for some reason the expiration date for my drivers license is wrong!!!!
I wonder if that's the reason for my denial!
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#170 gpsgreek

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:40 PM

nope.. I checked all the info I can see.

I am at a loss.

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#171 Glock23

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:47 PM

After viewing the applicants status during the 30 day LEO objection period I have observed an unfortunate amount of denials. These denials appeared to be due to improper applications. Examples I personally observed: Photo: applicants not using a REAL photo. Saw several denials because people submitted a scanned copy of a FOID or DL, they did not use a recent, real photo. Observed several photos that appeared to be about 1/8" x 1/8", could not even determine if the photo was of a human or not. Certificates: Observed a good number of certificates that were NOT signed by the applicant. Observed a few certificates that were incomplete; curriculum number, instructor ID, etc.

Things like this would be cause for rejections, not denials.

#172 bobapunk

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:58 PM



Dr. Rat,

I guess that makes sense... It just seems odd to me that the ISP would file an objection instead of just denying the application. I suppose there are things that would result in an "automatic" denial and other things that would trigger an objection more in-depth review. It also seems odd that the ISP would send applications that they felt needed further review to the CCLRB instead of doing the investigative work themselves... It seems like the ISP objection going to the CCLRB could provide an extra layer of protection, but it also seems to make filing an appeal a much more difficult process.


Well, like you say, the criteria that would require the Department to send denials over to the Board for review are subjective, while those they can use to deny on their own are objective. For the "danger to others" criterion, I guess it's designed so that the Board is the only entity that can decide if there's a preponderance of the evidence to uphold those objections. That makes sense from a consistency point of view. Similarly, the "too many arrests" criterion isn't an automatic disqualifier, but rather flags an app to allow the Board to take a closer look at those people.

I'm certainly no expert on this, but for some reason I find dissecting this law an interesting intellectual exercise. :thinking:



so what about those that have no arrests, no run ins with LE or no apparent physical/mental disabilities? How do they get denied and what can we do??

I just got home and there is no mail from anyone important in the box. I am dying to read what they found. I did however call in a favor and talk to a lawyer.He himself has applied for a CCL license. He said that after talking with colleagues he would not find it far fetched that a similar name could flag an application. He also said that the ISP would have to spell out any denials in writing and you would have to appeal to an Admin type Hearing or to the Board itself. If you win... great. If you lose, you would have to fight it out on the county court level. He said you probably would not win there because in order to get there they have a solid case against you and it would not be just a "witch hunt". The time to appeal is 35 days but there is nothing he saw that would say that the times starts at denial or date of letter. Either way, do not wait to see the letter. Contact a lawyer or the ISP after a week to get an answer and start the process. It may be easy task to correct or it may be an uphill battle but it will have to be done. The ISP is not going to prove that you are not you, you have to prove that you are not someone else. I am not advertising but if someone is interested in getting my lawyers number than message me and I can forward it to you.

I am excited to see a new thread that says APPROVED and I am excited for those that are. Hopefully the denied few will be able to post happy comments there also very very soon. Congrats.


I think your attorney buddy needs to reread the law and JCAR Rules. If you denied as a result of CCLRB action, your only recourse is to petition the circuit court. Also, it is pretty clear that you have 35 days, and the countdown starts the day the letter is mailed to you. The legalese has all be quoted/posted in this thread already.

#173 Dr. Rat

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:39 PM

so what about those that have no arrests, no run ins with LE or no apparent physical/mental disabilities? How do they get denied and what can we do??

I just got home and there is no mail from anyone important in the box. I am dying to read what they found. I did however call in a favor and talk to a lawyer.He himself has applied for a CCL license. He said that after talking with colleagues he would not find it far fetched that a similar name could flag an application. He also said that the ISP would have to spell out any denials in writing and you would have to appeal to an Admin type Hearing or to the Board itself. If you win... great. If you lose, you would have to fight it out on the county court level. He said you probably would not win there because in order to get there they have a solid case against you and it would not be just a "witch hunt". The time to appeal is 35 days but there is nothing he saw that would say that the times starts at denial or date of letter. Either way, do not wait to see the letter. Contact a lawyer or the ISP after a week to get an answer and start the process. It may be easy task to correct or it may be an uphill battle but it will have to be done. The ISP is not going to prove that you are not you, you have to prove that you are not someone else. I am not advertising but if someone is interested in getting my lawyers number than message me and I can forward it to you.

I am excited to see a new thread that says APPROVED and I am excited for those that are. Hopefully the denied few will be able to post happy comments there also very very soon. Congrats.


Well, if you really don't have any police or mental health records and you didn't answer "yes" to any of the disqualifying questions by mistake, I have no idea why you would be denied. OTOH, I'd be disappointed with the delay, but I wouldn't be worried about the eventual outcome at all. Mistakes can happen anywhere, but if you're clean, they'll get worked out. Most of the anxiety around here seems to have come from people who had prior arrests that ended up under Board review.

I'm still skeptical about the possibility of identities getting mixed up in this day and age, but I have no firsthand knowledge about how these checks are done. It would be mindblowingly stupid if they just relied on someone's name, but I suppose anything is possible.

Your lawyer is right that the ISP has to tell you why you were denied, but since the Board wasn't involved in your denial, your first avenue of appeal is to the Director. If he upholds the denial, you can still appeal to the court.

If you haven't done anything to get you disqualified immediately or sent to the Board, I wouldn't worry about it. It'll get cleared up.

#174 cubarican0360

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 08:22 AM

My status changed from under board review to denied in less than 1 hr. And im not a gangmember or had any convictions of any kind in my rexord. So did they really take 49 minutes to review my application or is there a glitch in the system. Should it say why it got denied or i should just settle for the red letters that say denied.. i dont understand.. .

#175 solareclipse2

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 08:38 AM

My status changed from under board review to denied in less than 1 hr. And im not a gangmember or had any convictions of any kind in my rexord. So did they really take 49 minutes to review my application or is there a glitch in the system. Should it say why it got denied or i should just settle for the red letters that say denied.. i dont understand.. .


When did you apply? Was it just today?
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#176 Dr. Rat

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 08:48 AM

My status changed from under board review to denied in less than 1 hr. And im not a gangmember or had any convictions of any kind in my rexord. So did they really take 49 minutes to review my application or is there a glitch in the system. Should it say why it got denied or i should just settle for the red letters that say denied.. i dont understand.. .


How do you know it happened in less than an hour? Are you checking your status every couple of minutes?

Nobody is certain what evidence is sufficient for the Board to uphold an objection yet, but you don't need to be convicted of anything to be denied. You will get an official letter from ISP telling you why you were denied. You can then appeal to the circuit court in your county.

#177 cubarican0360

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:11 AM

My app changed from under review to denied in 49minutes. Wtf is that all about? I have no criminal record...and it dont even say why and i never got an email from isp when the status changed . Does anyone know anything bout a glitch in system? Theres status being changed from denied back to under review...

#178 cubarican0360

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:13 AM

No i checked the second time to yake a screen shot and it said denied the second time around and it was 49 minutes after i checked the first time


#179 Ericshere

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:18 AM

How long ago did you apply?

#180 Dr. Rat

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:18 AM

No i checked the second time to yake a screen shot and it said denied the second time around and it was 49 minutes after i checked the first time


Yeah, but when did you check before that? Maybe it was under board review for a couple of days...




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