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Concealed carry and large apartment buildings


Scootaloo

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Sorry if this is the wrong forum, I didn't see anything else that looked like a Q&A style area. Please move if necessary.

 

I live in a large apartment building with a big lobby and several businesses inside the building. In fact the lobby is often full with people waiting for a table to open up at one of the two restaurants in the main lobby (they're pretty nice restaurants).

 

I was thinking, due to the business-centered aspect of my building's main lobby, and the fact that at least one of the two restaurants has a no-carry signs already posted, it's entirely possible that building management might decide to just put a sign in the front door of the building.

 

If they were to do this, is there any legal protection for a person living inside the building to carry concealed if the building has a posted sign? Could I actually be prevented from carrying due to the fact that I'd be technically violating the CC law by walking through the lobby to and from the elevator to my floor?

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Back to the Poorly written laws again. Walking to his residence through a Special event type thing ? I am just throwing that out there .

I believe until there is a Test Case a definitive answer is unknown

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My take:

 

It is your abode, you can ingress and egress as long as you don't go into a business that is posted, i.e. if one of the businesses post then you could not go into that area.

 

If your building posts, then you will have to transport.

 

best

 

mqqn

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This...

 

I would ask the association president about how he thinks the residents would feel about getting a special assessment for getting wrapped up in a lawsuit.

 

basically as I understand it we have a right to carry a gun outside the home. I believe this right trumps a private property owners right to deny us concealed carry in a common area (hallway, elevator, etc...) I may be traversing to access my home in an apartment/condo building. I may be in this situation myself so it's going to be interesting to see how this develops

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I'm guessing it isn't in the lease that you can't have your firearms on the property(In your apt).

I think the law covers you walking through 'banned' areas to get to where you absolutely need to go. It's like crossing the street where a parade/festival is happening to get to your property. I'm going to guess it would only apply to you, not your friends coming over for a visit.

I'm just speculating. Interesting question.

 

Our CC law sucks, I hope we can get some things clarified in the next couple of years.

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This, to me, seems like a civil dispute between a tenant and a landlord. Police response times being what they are, I suspect it would be virtually impossible to actually get arrested for ingress/egress. Knowing and proving are two different things, after all. If you're coming home you'll be in your abode before the police show up and at that point they can go pound sand. If you're leaving you'll be out about your business and I find it difficult to believe they're going to search for you based on what is very quickly going to become an annoying quality of life call. Even if they did theres very little chance they'd find you once you were out in a busy street or in your car. If by some fluke they did it would be tough to prove you actually violated the law because who know how many bathrooms you might have been able to slip into in the meantime to switch from transfer to carry. There would have to be a cop in the lobby as you were entering while your concealment was so shoddy that they noticed and took it upon themselves to get involved.

 

I get that we all want to follow the letter of the law and be the right kind of people, and I'm not advocating anyone doing anything illegal, but the time comes when a reasonable person needs to do a cost/benefit analysis and decide for themselves what level of risk they're willing to accept. Beyond that, well, I have a hard time thinking of anything more American than civil disobedience.

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Here is the way I see it. Your address is your home. If you live at XXXX Anonymous Drive, but your apartment is inside the building and up 10 floors, then you should be able to carry if you're at home at the XXXX Anonymous Drive address. I.E. in the building you live that is listed as your address. If your ENTIRE building is posted, only transport would be allowed. The businesses within the building are private establishments, therefore you can't carry there if they are posted.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't mention anything until there is something to mention.

 

Keep in mind IANAL, just the way I view it.

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This, to me, seems like a civil dispute between a tenant and a landlord. Police response times being what they are, I suspect it would be virtually impossible to actually get arrested for ingress/egress. Knowing and proving are two different things, after all. If you're coming home you'll be in your abode before the police show up and at that point they can go pound sand. If you're leaving you'll be out about your business and I find it difficult to believe they're going to search for you based on what is very quickly going to become an annoying quality of life call. Even if they did theres very little chance they'd find you once you were out in a busy street or in your car. If by some fluke they did it would be tough to prove you actually violated the law because who know how many bathrooms you might have been able to slip into in the meantime to switch from transfer to carry. There would have to be a cop in the lobby as you were entering while your concealment was so shoddy that they noticed and took it upon themselves to get involved.

 

I get that we all want to follow the letter of the law and be the right kind of people, and I'm not advocating anyone doing anything illegal, but the time comes when a reasonable person needs to do a cost/benefit analysis and decide for themselves what level of risk they're willing to accept. Beyond that, well, I have a hard time thinking of anything more American than civil disobedience.

 

"...I'm not advocating anyone doing anything illegal..."

 

But that's exactly what you're doing here.

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This, to me, seems like a civil dispute between a tenant and a landlord...

 

So here's the scenario for a city dweller in the average multi-unit building where the building owner posts:

 

A) Law-Abiding gun owner takes their gun out of the holster, unloads it, places the unloaded gun and it's ammo in separate containers. Walks out the door with them (the so called "FOID-carry") goes down the elevator/stairs/hallway and then goes outside the building where they are now need to find some non-public way to load their gun and conceal it.

 

or

 

B) Law-Abiding gun owner safely leaves their gun in the holster and conceals it. Walks out the door with it and commits a misdemeanor because the building owner posted. Goes down the elevator/stairs/hallway and then goes outside building with their still concealed firearm.

 

Because these silly No-Gun signs have force of law it may or may no be a civil matter but it, unfortunately, becomes a criminal matter. I can't really believe anyone in this situation would chose option A. I know I wouldn't...

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I can't imagine any states attorney who would be idiotic enough to choose to prosecute that case....

 

I know there are some who would, but I just can't imagine it...

 

I can think of a few:

 

http://d2wziury1ubjwy.cloudfront.net/images/articleimages/richard_devine_large.jpg http://www.rockfordpubliclibrary.org/sites/rockfordpubliclibrary.org/files/library-team-member/Paul_Logli.jpg

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it's my understanding that if your landlord posts the building, you must switch to transport mode going from entrance to your door. I"m interested to see what others more knowledgable than myself have to say.

 

the problem is that there is no such thing as transport mode, as far as being legal in such a case. if you have a FCCL and can't carry it loaded somewhere, you can't carry it unloaded and in a case there either. that is what the law actually says and until it gets changed or the courts say it can't be enforced that way, that is what the law is.

 

I am not completely convinced that it is a violation of the FCCA to carry in a voluntarily posted area. It is another of the many poorly worded things in this law that some poor schlup will find out for us some day.

 

Heller says you have a right to have a firearm in your home. pretty unequivocal. If you can't bring it there because someone posted it as no carry, a court would likely grant you some kind of dispensation. But, you might have to do the perp walk to get that dispensation.

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I don't know about any of the legalisms here. Not a lawyer. What I do know is that I would take a sign that purports to restrict me from exercising my 2nd amendment rights up and down the elevator of my apartment building with the same seriousness as one that told me not to use communal oxygen on the same trip. The second amendment is meaningless if the law empowers my landlord to prevent me from walking out my apartment door armed.

 

Come and get me, coppers.

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I don't know about any of the legalisms here. Not a lawyer. What I do know is that I would take a sign that purports to restrict me from exercising my 2nd amendment rights up and down the elevator of my apartment building with the same seriousness as one that told me not to use communal oxygen on the same trip. The second amendment is meaningless if the law empowers my landlord to prevent me from walking out my apartment door armed.

 

Come and get me, coppers.

 

I think that being discreet about it until such time as things work themselves out would be wise.

 

even if you eventually prevail in court it could easily be a victory that costs you > $5,000 in legal fees and a few days in jail while you wait for someone to bail you out.

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it's my understanding that if your landlord posts the building, you must switch to transport mode going from entrance to your door. I"m interested to see what others more knowledgable than myself have to say.

 

the problem is that there is no such thing as transport mode, as far as being legal in such a case. if you have a FCCL and can't carry it loaded somewhere, you can't carry it unloaded and in a case there either. that is what the law actually says and until it gets changed or the courts say it can't be enforced that way, that is what the law is.

 

I am not completely convinced that it is a violation of the FCCA to carry in a voluntarily posted area. It is another of the many poorly worded things in this law that some poor schlup will find out for us some day.

 

Heller says you have a right to have a firearm in your home. pretty unequivocal. If you can't bring it there because someone posted it as no carry, a court would likely grant you some kind of dispensation. But, you might have to do the perp walk to get that dispensation.

 

Hi Bob -

 

Can you please post the citation from the statute that supports the above statement?

 

Thanks -

 

mqqn

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Just to complicate matters a bit… If the landlord of your building decides agains CC, and puts that in your lease, as a matter of contract law, arguably this is perfectly valid for the landlord to do. If you carry anyway, you are in violation of your lease agreement and subject to eviction. As to Heller, BTW, that applies to government restricting hour right to have a gun in the home. At least that is my humble understanding.
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Just to complicate matters a bit… If the landlord of your building decides agains CC, and puts that in your lease, as a matter of contract law, arguably this is perfectly valid for the landlord to do. If you carry anyway, you are in violation of your lease agreement and subject to eviction. As to Heller, BTW, that applies to government restricting hour right to have a gun in the home. At least that is my humble understanding.

 

Yeah, that's a possibility but again a civil matter. This is the core issue here:

 

The second amendment is meaningless if the law empowers my landlord to prevent me from walking out my apartment door armed.

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For me all of this goes back a discussion i participated in: CCW ban in closed gate community?

 

(sorry but the forum won't let me keep the quote levels intact)

 

 

Me: "This is indeed truly a bizarre state of affairs. The state itself cannot deny you your Second Amendment carry right, but the state can "delegate" that right to deny concealed carry over to a private property owner within that state."

 

RoadyRunner: "Are you suggesting that its OK for the State to preempt private property rights? I have a MUCH greater problem than that.

You can choose to belong to a HOA, if you are in one you can join the Board to influence or set HOA policy (that's what I did...) - but allowing the State to deny private property rights is a slope I doubt many want to go down."

 

To correct you - the State is not denying your right. The State is not 'delegating the right to deny' your right. Your right simply does not exist on private property.

 

Its the same logic that allows me to deny political or religious speech at my front door.. :-D

 

 

ME: "So to put it simply; a private property owner's prerogative nullifies the US Constitution."

 

TRJ: "No. The Constitution limits government power only. It doesn't grant you any rights."

 

...and later in the thread...

 

ME: "So to put it simply; a private property owner's prerogative nullifies the US Constitution."

 

RockerXX: "No, the Constitution (Bill of Rights) limits the governments not a private citizen exercising control over his/her property... And when two rights come into conflict the courts have to make a decision on who's right wins out in this case the property owners rights will likely win until or unless the 2nd is elevated to a protected class..."

 

...this is a mess

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Like any other business, I would respect the owner's right to decide whether they wanted to allow guns in the common areas of their property. I would also find new living arrangements.

 

In December 2012 United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit issued a ruling in Moore v. Madigan, that required the Illinois Legislature to modify existing State law to adopt a concealed carry law to allow the denizens of Illinois the right to bear arms outside of the home. I don't remember reading anywhere that this ruling applied only to denizens of Illinois that live in single family homes whose driveways empty out to a public street or road.

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The clash is property rights versus individual rights in locations where he property owner has granted access to the public for commercial purposes. In those situations the property owners rights should not be supreme but should be a compromise that accommodates the individual with minimal disruption to the property owner.

 

A concealed firearm possessed for lawful purposes has ZERO disruption to a property owner.

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It's simple - the 7th ordered Illinois to craft a law and the law they enacted states: "The owner of private real property of any type may prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms on the property under his or her control". People who rent do not own the property. There's nothing in the law that prohibits renters from finding a gun-friendly landlord.
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