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12 Hour Concealed Carry Class Approved!


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#31 bobapunk

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 08:21 AM

The names on the list of approved classes do not seem to mean much of anything.

I could name a course 'JimmyJoeBob's Wunderware Tactical Hillybilly Mall Ninja 1 Billion Hour IL CCF Course"

If I marked the 8/16 hr box, and initialed off on all the topics, it would be a 16 hour course regardless of what shenanigans I put in the name...

I suppose my questions are more related to which topics you initialed off on the curriculum approval form, and if you are planning on selectively leaving topics out. Because if you are planning on doing that, you are in the wrong.

I will stand by my statement that I do not see the ISP attorneys agreeing with the idea that you can decide to leave 4 hours out of an approved class, and still have an approved class...

In short, if you are using the same course ID# for your 16hr class and all of your variants of your "12 hours courses", I do not see how that is legit since you are not covering all the topics you attested/promised/swore to cover.

Furthermore, the law and the ISP rules say that people with prior credit only need to cover the legal portion and shoot the livefire qual. So why not just make a 12 hour course that covers the law, in depth, for 10 hours and have 2 hours of range time? Or, you could make a 12 hour course that covers the law in 3-4 hours, and then have a 8-9 hour "shooter's class". Those options would actually follow what the law and ISP rules say, and you would have 2 solid options for people who either want to cover the law more heavily, or get more trigger time.

#32 Molly B.

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:12 AM

The ISP has said courses are approved "up to" 16 hrs. and instructors are to review prior training and provide the necessary training to bring applicant into compliance with training requirements. This will vary with the different applicants' prior training.
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#33 cgs

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:00 PM

The ISP has said courses are approved "up to" 16 hrs. and instructors are to review prior training and provide the necessary training to bring applicant into compliance with training requirements. This will vary with the different applicants' prior training.

While I agree with you 100%, in theory, I am extremely hesitant to test out this or any other theory. I believe that you and the Lawsons are correct but I am going to hold off for now on 4 and 12 hour classes until I see how the ISP approves or denies the first wave of 12 hour applicants. I am hoping they all pass with flying colors, but I won't be the guinea pig.
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#34 101abn

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 02:24 AM

Here's the way I see it, L H I Has an ISP APPROVED 8-12-16 hr curriculum, ISP gets an application from Joe Smo who sent in his CFP training certificate along with his 12 hr certificate, Isp checks the instructers info, LHI Approved 12 hr curriculum,
Going thru the approved instructors curriculum there was only one other instructor with a 12 hr that i seen. Atleast these two parties took the time and effort to put a 12 hour curriculum together.

And as far as the Lawson's
Every Gun owner in this state should show the utmost respect and graditude for the owners of L H I , I Damn sure do, since they helped restore my gun rights in Chicago.
Next to Otis McDonald, and adam orlov



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#35 bobapunk

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:47 AM

And here is how I see it...

If LHI submitted a curriculum approval request with the 8/16 hour box checked, and all the lines initialed, they have a 16 hour course approved. If they teach the class, leaving out ANY of the time and/or ANY of the topics they attested to cover, they are committing fraud since their course ID# is tied to a document on which they attested to teach ALL of the topics that they initialed off on.

However, if LHI submitted a curriculum approval request with 12 hour IL-CCF Course Approval Request written on the top, and only the lines initialed that they intent to cover in those 12 hours, and they received a course approval letter w/ Course ID#, then they have a 12 hour course approved and can go about their merry way.

I do not see anything to indicate that you can put your 16hr course ID# on a certificate for a class in which you did not cover all of the topics that you attested you would cover.

Similar to CGS, I hope the students will be fine when they apply. However, the only way I see them being fine is due to the fact that the ISP will not be following up on the certificates. As long as the Course ID# and Instructor ID# check out, they probably won't ask any questions. However, the instructor should realize that when they write their course ID # on the certificate, they are attesting that they taught all of the topics they initialed off on on the approval request form. If you indicate that a student has a CFP, good for 4 hours, and you taught them your course, you are signing off that you taught them the full 16 and now they have 20 hours. There is no place to indicated that you only taught 12, and no place to indicate the topics that you did not cover.

As instructors, I think we should be playing this tight and to the letter of the law/rules. Playing fast and loose is a sure way to get more restrictive trailer bills brought up in the ILGA.

#36 NRApistol

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:12 AM

Why are some instructors making this harder than it is. I also have a 12 curriculum approved and so should you if you had planned your curriculum well.
You have ONE Curriculum number that covers 4 different boxes on the form.
You may pick one:
___ I provided the full 16
___ I verified " 4 " hours of prior training and provided the remainder (12 hours)
___ I verified 8 hours and provided 8 hours
___ I provided 3 hour renewal

#37 bobapunk

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:16 AM

Why are some instructors making this harder than it is. I also have a 12 curriculum approved and so should you if you had planned your curriculum well.
You have ONE Curriculum number that covers 4 different boxes on the form.
You may pick one:
___ I provided the full 16
___ I verified " 4 " hours of prior training and provided the remainder (12 hours)
___ I verified 8 hours and provided 8 hours
___ I provided 3 hour renewal


No, you should have different curriculum ID#s if you did it "right". If you use the same ID# for however many hours/topic you decide to cover, how are the ISP processors supposed to know what the student was actually taught? If you indicate the student came to you with 4 prior hours, and you put your 16hr course ID#, you are signing off that you provided an additional 16 hours because that is what you attested to provide on your curriculum approval request.

Why on earth would the ISP make you get curriculum approved if you are just going to teach whatever you want anyway?

#38 AJR

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:39 AM

LHI
I applaud you for taking the effort to make this happen. It's not as complicated as everyone is trying to make it.
One could just as easily add a FL or Utah portion to thier class and be just fine. They could be an unlimited number of what if's and other once in a million possibilities, that can happen in every scenario in life. Sometimes someone just has to be the Pioneer and move everyone forward.
Thank you for taking our cause forward and leading the charge.

Edited by AJR, 05 December 2013 - 11:13 AM.

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#39 NRApistol

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:39 AM

Bob, I must have done something "right" I have a 12 hour course approved and ready to go

#40 wtr100

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:11 AM

Bob, I must have done something "right" I have a 12 hour course approved and ready to go


I guess my questions are

1. has the wording on the curriculum application changed? It seems there were dire warnings on the one I sent in , purgery and such, for not following the hours.

2. did you not initial some lines? did you annotate where you hours vary?

Really what I wonder is, do the instructions on the course completion form and in the letter we received from the ISP supersede whats on the notarized curriculum document we submitted?

In the end it really won't matter - the first few months of applications are going to be a real goat rope

The whole mess goes back to the botched job of rolling out the program so far. Things were not well thought through at all. On the plus side my little classes we have a lot of fun and I've met some really interesting people

I think bob's issues come from his real world life in finance / banking - words mean things in this world and are not open to interpretation and agreements aren't subject to much / any change

Edited by wtr100, 05 December 2013 - 09:15 AM.

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#41 Pipedoc

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:05 AM

From ISP's FAQ page. I thought this was settled a long time ago.

Who decides whether to give credit for prior training and how much to give?

The Department and certified firearms instructors shall recognize up to 8 hours of training already completed toward the 16 hour training requirement. Pursuant to the discretion granted within the statute regarding the proficiency of trainees, instructors must verify the prior training and can, within their discretion, determine the need for further training on a case by case basis. The Department has provided a list of approved curriculum to guide individual instructors with this decision.

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#42 Molly B.

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:15 AM

Why on earth would the ISP make you get curriculum approved if you are just going to teach whatever you want anyway?


It's not a matter of teaching whatever you want. An instructor looks at what the prior 4 hours included, then provides the rest of the required training.
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#43 wtr100

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:33 AM


Why on earth would the ISP make you get curriculum approved if you are just going to teach whatever you want anyway?


It's not a matter of teaching whatever you want. An instructor looks at what the prior 4 hours included, then provides the rest of the required training.


more likely because they didn't think the whole thing through before they implemented it.

in effect the curriculum really means nothing every student can be taught differently in every course - probably not a bad thing
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