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RTC Emergency Rules


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#1 Tvandermyde

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:02 PM

After some complaining, I just received the Emergency rules filed by the State Police.

Have not had time to go over them so I am reading them at the same time you are.

Attached Files


While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#2 Onytay

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:04 PM

Thanks!

#3 TyGuy

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:05 PM

Emergency? Have they not had since Dec 2012 to be thinking about this stuff?

Thanks for the update.
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#4 wtr100

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:10 PM

thanks and me little pea brain is spinning especially
1231.50 E certifying prior training

Edited by wtr100, 05 September 2013 - 01:15 PM.

Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, 60 rounds powder and ball and be ready to march at a minute's warning

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#5 Onytay

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:13 PM

It looks like they are trying to make the instructors certify that their previous 8 hrs worth of training meet the requirements to be grandfathered.

#6 bmyers

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:13 PM

Interesting information.

#7 Onytay

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:16 PM

It also looks like Instructors will have to maintain a valid FCCL to be approved Instructors.

#8 Booxone

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:17 PM

So does this look like NRA basic pistol will be counted?

#9 Camar10

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:18 PM

Thanks for the update Todd.

#10 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:18 PM

... reading.

-Thomas

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#11 Drylok

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:18 PM

Emergency? Have they not had since Dec 2012 to be thinking about this stuff?

Thanks for the update.

They still have till tomorrow close of business, that's plenty of time to ______ it up worse than it already is.
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#12 Tvandermyde

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:20 PM

:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#13 pdpsc

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:22 PM

Any of us who thought they would be restrictive on accepting instructors was dead wrong. They only require 3 hours of instructor training. I guess that last section about another entity recognized in at least three states is for NACFI so their former director can become an instructor without taking an NRA course.

Edited to add that I will be the first to admit that I was wrong. It happens once every 10 years or so...

Edited by pdpsc, 05 September 2013 - 01:23 PM.

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#14 Camar10

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:24 PM

:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:


Easy on the noggin Todd, it has already been through enough this week....

#15 wtr100

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:28 PM

So does this look like NRA basic pistol will be counted?



As instructor per 1231.10 Definitions it specifically says National Rifle Association of America

It does not mention any course by name but it says at least 4 hours of In-person training and live fire so it seems to me NRA Basic Pistol instructor is good to go

Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, 60 rounds powder and ball and be ready to march at a minute's warning

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#16 Onytay

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:28 PM

:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:


I can only imagine how you feel about these "rules" .

#17 wtr100

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:29 PM

:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:


is that a tailgate?

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#18 Camar10

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:30 PM

it did leave a few things "open" and not clearly defined. At least to my small but still working brain...

#19 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:31 PM

I just caught something page 6 paragraph 2 :cool: 4 hours on the range? Certainly my original understanding is some of that time is dry fire and can be done in the classroom. The range would only be for live fire. ???? 4 hours range time, jiminey crickets bat man! People have been complaining about training fees already, if they have to be on the range 3 additional hours, watch everyone's prices go up by $60 for range time.


Page 7 section 1231.50 There will be a form for instructors to complete. I think that goes without saying. Look at b 2) Instructors have to certify that the applicant has previously received ISP approved training elsewhere. Does anyone recall that disclaimer form I posted yesterday? Seems like we're gonna need it!

same page and section c 1) I see nothing about a 4 hour course. Many people have asked about a 4 hour course for Utah permit holders. Looks like Utah permit holders may have to take a full 8? On a side note, what about CFP? No credit for that? Ok I'm on a tangent now. Back to the document.

Maybe same page paragraph E answers my question about CFP and Utah experience???

Edited by cgs, 05 September 2013 - 01:33 PM.

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#20 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:31 PM

:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:
:headbang1:

Todd I am with you. This doesn't answer many of the questions people have been asking, if that was the point in doing so.

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#21 mjw45

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:32 PM

Just printed out and wishing I had a stiff drink as I go to read them.

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#22 DoktorPaimon

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:34 PM

Am I reading this wrong or are they looking for four hours of range time?

#23 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:36 PM

Am I reading this wrong or are they looking for four hours of range time?

That's my question as well. My understanding reading the curriculum form they provided is that module is 4 total hours covering dry fire and live fire... not that we need to be on the range doing dry fire.... Did it change or was I wrong first, or did the person who wrote this not understand?

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#24 wtr100

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:38 PM

Does it seem they're expecting the instructors to the state's agent in validating previous training?

Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, 60 rounds powder and ball and be ready to march at a minute's warning

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#25 Bud

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:39 PM

Here's an immediate concern for me.

From 1999-2007 when I retired in disgust, I was a Military Records Expert for the entire VA (US) system. I was then (and still am as an independent contractor) very much involved in the identification of forged/altered documents for the VA's Office of the Inspector General, Criminal Investigation Division.

I identified (and caused prosecution) of hundreds of altered/forged DD Form 214s.

Fpor instance, the ISP came to me to find and identify the records of the Sycamore 56 year old murder case this past winter where the offender based his entire alibi on his former military records.

The ISP is making a HUGE mistake leaving verification of military records to the everyday layman and putting a huge burden on instructors to verify the validity of DD Form 214s.

These people are incredibly ate up

Edited by Bud, 05 September 2013 - 01:40 PM.

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#26 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:43 PM

Does it seem they're expecting the instructors to the state's agent in validating previous training?

Seems like it to me! That's what I was suspecting they would do.

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#27 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:45 PM

Here's an immediate concern for me.

From 1999-2007 when I retired in disgust, I was a Military Records Expert for the entire VA (US) system. I was then (and still am as an independent contractor) very much involved in the identification of forged/altered documents for the VA's Office of the Inspector General, Criminal Investigation Division.

I identified (and caused prosecution) of hundreds of altered/forged DD Form 214s.

Fpor instance, the ISP came to me to find and identify the records of the Sycamore 56 year old murder case this past winter where the offender based his entire alibi on his former military records.

The ISP is making a HUGE mistake leaving verification of military records to the everyday layman and putting a huge burden on instructors to verify the validity of DD Form 214s.

These people are incredibly ate up

Bud I don't have any of the experience that you have and I totally agree. 99% of us are not qualified to make these verifications. Which is why each and every of my customers will sign a waiver stating they agree to indemnify and hold me harmless should their documents be falsified or inaccurate in any way.

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#28 mjw45

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:49 PM

Did I miss it?

What the heck it 'Public firearms storage'?

And are they kidding?
I am supposed to certify that a student has training/exemptions that meet the 8 hour requirements?

I don't want that responsibility, not am I qualified.

I thought it was supposed to get better, not worse.

What in this 'Emergency Rules' really clears anything up for us?

Matt

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#29 aka

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:50 PM

Thanks for posting this.

Thank you

 

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#30 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:52 PM

This is why I posted the other day about scanning copies of DD-214's or other documentation of previous training. Since the law specifies INSTRUCTORS as well as the ISP "accepting" previous training, it certainly seems that the ISP will shift that burden to the instructors because they can.

Let's take a look at this logically though. Will there be forged documents? Yes. There always will be. If you own a nightclub and an underage kid gets in with a really good fake ID, you aren't going to lose your license if you did your due diligence. We are not expected to be document experts. At the end of the day, I will cover myself by:

1) keeping a copy of the document I was provided by the applicant
2) not letting any student even get to the range who doesn't show proficiency in safe gun-handling in the classroom portion.

That's all I can do, and all i can be expected to do.

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