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Shooting Qualification for License To Carry

b-27 target section 75

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#1 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:28 PM

I am hearing a lot of different interpretations regarding the shooting qualification set forth in Section 75 of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act. However, it seems pretty clear that the B-27 target, which is 24" by 48", needs to be hit 70% or more by 30 rounds (minimum), at a range of 5, 7 and 10 yards.

I heard one person who was considered an "expert" say that the rounds had to hit all inside the "9" ring. However, that doesn't seem to be what the law states. As written, it seems pretty clear that if you hit the "silhouette portion" (the black) of the target, it is a hit.

Am I missing something very obvious, or are people just making things up?!
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#2 GlockShooter

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:35 PM

I believe you are correct, based on the law as written.

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#3 pdpsc

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:42 PM

Between now and when the Illinois State Police finally chimes in with written rules, the speculation will be endless...
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#4 largefarva

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:43 PM

I believe you are correct, based on the law as written.


Agreed. Nowhere in the law does it say that it has to hit the 9 ring, it just says it has to hit the target...which would mean anywhere in the black part of the silhouette. At least this is the way I'm seeing it. If there were a scoring system other than 70% hit on the target one would think it would be spelled out in the law.





(2) 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Department.
(d) An applicant for renewal of a license shall provide
proof of completion of a firearms training course or combination of courses approved by the Department of at least 3 hours.



(e) A certificate of completion for an applicant's firearm training course shall not be issued to a student who:
(1) does not follow the orders of the certified firearms instructor;
(2) in the judgment of the certified instructor, handles a firearm in a manner that poses a danger to the student or to others; or
(3) during the range firing portion of testing fails to hit the target with 70% of the rounds fired.

#5 Silhouette

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:46 PM

It's not even clear from the language that they mean the BLACK part of the target.

Edited by Silhouette, 18 August 2013 - 07:46 PM.


#6 largefarva

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:52 PM

But nowhere does it specify it has to be a certain part within the target. Just says it has to hit it. Makes the most sense to interpret that as the black part of the target, but I'm sure the ISP will clarify this.

#7 Mr. Fife

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:59 PM

One has to think that our law makers are smart men and women. If they just wanted you to score inside of a 9 ring, they would have just specified that in the law. No, not only didn't they want you shooting at a shape of a pie plate, they purposely chose a silhoutte. Even the Chicago representatives who were against CCW voted for the silhoutte, even though they quibbled about every other part of the law. In the end, that's what they want you to test on.

I believe that they know in their hearts that someone with a CCW isn't getting their license to shoot at pie plates. They know that CCW will help reduce crime in Chicago. After all, why were the Chicago representatives so adamant about making the training 80 hours long, just like the police? Were they thinking that we would become their auxilliary police force without the pay and benefits?

The words in the document speak the truth. If they didn't mean it, they wouldn't have voted for it.

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#8 WtJen

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 09:30 PM

To amuse myself I will bring my .22 cal Neo and make smiley faces on the B-27 to qualify.

Edited by WtJen, 18 August 2013 - 09:35 PM.

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#9 TyGuy

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 09:38 PM

686 6" for me

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#10 tkroenlein

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 09:49 PM

686 6" for me


We had a line of 6 shooters at my Florida CCW class, one fellow was using a 686 6" with full power magnums. I've never never considered the 357 a big boomer, but in a line of 9's, it sure seemed out of place.

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#11 RockerXX

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:52 AM

One has to think that our law makers are smart men and women


I don't especially after hearing them debate the gun bills and other bills, most of them don't know anything about the topic being debated that is why they have interns/support staff with stacks of bound paper and lots of page flipping whispering in their ears most of the time...

In fact I would wager that if you took a collection of 10 standard targets (even a mix of silhouette and bulls eye) and showed pictures to all our representatives that at the end of the day you would likely find out that a vast majority of them don't know a B27 from any other target shown...

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#12 RockerXX

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:55 AM

To amuse myself I will bring my .22 cal Neo and make smiley faces on the B-27 to qualify.


Probably be several people doing stuff like this even with larger calibers...

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#13 spec5

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:36 PM

I am hearing a lot of different interpretations regarding the shooting qualification set forth in Section 75 of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act. However, it seems pretty clear that the B-27 target, which is 24" by 48", needs to be hit 70% or more by 30 rounds (minimum), at a range of 5, 7 and 10 yards.

I heard one person who was considered an "expert" say that the rounds had to hit all inside the "9" ring. However, that doesn't seem to be what the law states. As written, it seems pretty clear that if you hit the "silhouette portion" (the black) of the target, it is a hit.

Am I missing something very obvious, or are people just making things up?!

Is it just me or does 30 feet seems a little bit far for a defensive range? Not saying that I have a problem shooting at that distance it just seems excessive.
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#14 RockerXX

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:54 PM

Is it just me or does 30 feet seems a little bit far for a defensive range? Not saying that I have a problem shooting at that distance it just seems excessive.


My hallway is nearly 20 feet, if I was standing in my bedroom and an intruder was in the living room that would be a 30 foot shot... Hardly an extreme distance for self defense... Measure out 30 feet on the ground then use that visual when you walk around in public and consider an armed suspect at that distance, could they pose a life threat to you at that distance? When you are at any store or restaurant look at the distance between you and say the door where an armed suspect could enter, is it in excess of 30 feet? At the end of the day I suspect you will determine that 30 feet is hardly that far away...

If there is a threat to your life you don't want to have to wait until the guy is within physical striking distance before you mount your defense...

Consider this, a guy is running full tilt at you with a knife, when do you shoot? There are many instances of suspect covering a great deal of distance after bullets strike them, best to put down the threat as soon as possible and avoid a potential physical attack...

Edited by RockerXX, 20 August 2013 - 01:57 PM.

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#15 Drylok

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:58 PM


To amuse myself I will bring my .22 cal Neo and make smiley faces on the B-27 to qualify.


Probably be several people doing stuff like this even with larger calibers...

Not in my class and I'm going to ask my students to train with the gear and gun or guns they intend to carry.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks"
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#16 TyGuy

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:04 PM

So I have to split my firing across 3-6 pistols? Dang. (I have 3 that I CCW and 3 more that I OC in WI)

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#17 RockerXX

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:08 PM

Not in my class and I'm going to ask my students to train with the gear and gun or guns they intend to carry.


Although I feel that it's best to train with the firearm you plan to carry, any instructor that dictates the firearm(s) I can and can't use won't be my instructor or getting my business...

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#18 Drylok

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:10 PM


I am hearing a lot of different interpretations regarding the shooting qualification set forth in Section 75 of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act. However, it seems pretty clear that the B-27 target, which is 24" by 48", needs to be hit 70% or more by 30 rounds (minimum), at a range of 5, 7 and 10 yards.

I heard one person who was considered an "expert" say that the rounds had to hit all inside the "9" ring. However, that doesn't seem to be what the law states. As written, it seems pretty clear that if you hit the "silhouette portion" (the black) of the target, it is a hit.

Am I missing something very obvious, or are people just making things up?!

Is it just me or does 30 feet seems a little bit far for a defensive range? Not saying that I have a problem shooting at that distance it just seems excessive.

Yes that's starting to be a little bit of a poke for carry guns but not excessive. Statistically dynamic critical incidents occur from point blank to 12 ft. Though we know it does happen at greater distances too. I always thought the distances should be 1, 3 and 7 yrds.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks"
-Thomas Jefferson-

Now two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red, the white, the blue. The other ones got a rattle snake with a simple statement made, don't tread on me, is what it says and I'll take that to my grave
-Aaron Lewis-

#19 Drylok

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:12 PM

So I have to split my firing across 3-6 pistols? Dang. (I have 3 that I CCW and 3 more that I OC in WI)

Don't have too but would like. Shoot your shield you carry on your ankle at 5 yrds, the compact you carry on the other ankle at 7 and the full frame you carry on your hip at 10 for example.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks"
-Thomas Jefferson-

Now two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red, the white, the blue. The other ones got a rattle snake with a simple statement made, don't tread on me, is what it says and I'll take that to my grave
-Aaron Lewis-

#20 Drylok

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:15 PM


Not in my class and I'm going to ask my students to train with the gear and gun or guns they intend to carry.


Although I feel that it's best to train with the firearm you plan to carry, any instructor that dictates the firearm(s) I can and can't use won't be my instructor or getting my business...

Not dictating, asking and strongly encouraging. Just like they don't have to have a holster to come qualify but I'm going to ask them to if at all possible. I would never flat out dictate anything that is not required by law.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks"
-Thomas Jefferson-

Now two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red, the white, the blue. The other ones got a rattle snake with a simple statement made, don't tread on me, is what it says and I'll take that to my grave
-Aaron Lewis-

#21 pdpsc

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:17 PM



To amuse myself I will bring my .22 cal Neo and make smiley faces on the B-27 to qualify.


Probably be several people doing stuff like this even with larger calibers...

Not in my class and I'm going to ask my students to train with the gear and gun or guns they intend to carry.


Edited to reflect that I do not disagree with Drylok, because he did not say that he will REQUIRE anything.

If you come to my class, you can bring any gun that (1) meets the requirements of the laws or rules of this state and (2) you can operate safely. So far, I see nothing in the Firearm Concealed Carry Act that states one must carry or qualify with a specific type of gun. The Illinois State Police may put out a rule that limits what our students can shoot during training/qualification, but that has not happened yet.

If a student wants to do something that I would personally consider ridiculous, like bring a Ruger Super Redhawk chambered in .454 Casull or a Ruger Single Six chambered in .22lr, I will talk to him/her about their choice of firearms, but I will not send them home or automatically fail them just because they brought something I personally do not think is a good defensive carry weapon. My concern will only be can he/she handle that weapon in a safe manner and pass the qualification with it. I am certain that we will all have some smart a** attend one of our classes with some ridiculous gun.

I just don't think THE LAW requires that they train with the weapon they plan to carry or even a reasonable weapon. I think it is commonsense to train with what you will carry, but should we as instructors require much more than the law requires for people to exercise a constitutional right?

Those that really care about learning how to safely carry and use a pistol for defensive purposes will seek out a heck of a lot more training than a state-mandated 16 hour concealed carry license course.

Edited by pdpsc, 20 August 2013 - 02:30 PM.

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#22 azone5

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:58 PM

My opinion is that instructors are there to instruct and not make value judgments about choices of firearms used by the civilians. Why would an instructor consider increased training requirements for a constitutional right? Your values are no better than anyone else's.
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#23 miztic

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:59 PM

Just to add to what pdpsc has said, I think it might be good to qualify with the gun you intend to carry from a legal perspective too, lets say you do have to shoot someone, they're going to tear everything you did apart, and could possibly look at your range qual too, I can see some lawyer making you look really bad if you decide to qualify with a .22, or some more 'fun' caliber.

So while the law doesn't require any specific type of gun [say police caliber], I'm going to bring the gun I plan to carry that I shoot the best.

On a personal note, I would find it hilarious if someone were to bring a .454 or .50DE or something crazy like that to qual with :)

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#24 RockerXX

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:02 PM

If a student wants to do something that I would personally consider ridiculous


I'm going to go with azone5 response as that sums it up for me...

My opinion is that instructors are there to instruct and not make value judgments about choices of firearms used by the civilians


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#25 GUNS&LAWYERS

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:04 PM

The FCCA does have a requirement on the type of firearm you can qualify with...it must be concealable.

"An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of
certification by a certified instructor that the applicant
passed a live fire exercise with a concealable firearm
consisting of:"

So, this might not work, but all those itty bitty guns like a DE .50 are fine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16SIvVKtuks

Edited by GUNS&LAWYERS, 20 August 2013 - 03:12 PM.

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#26 RockerXX

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:15 PM

The FCCA does have a requirement on the type of firearm you can qualify with...it must be concealable.

"An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of
certification by a certified instructor that the applicant
passed a live fire exercise with a concealable firearm
consisting of:"


I don't know of any 'handgun' that I could not conceal under say a duster or trench coat, especially under the definition of 'concealed firearm' outlined in FCCA...

BTW as defined a 22 caliber pellet pistol meets the qualifications ;)

What weighs six ounces, sits in a tree and is very dangerous?
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#27 jester121

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:16 PM

Here's some interesting reading called "Re-thinking the 21 foot Rule"

http://www.policemag...-foot-rule.aspx


And I'm glad there's no mention of using a particular gun for qualification under our law, or we'd have to qualify every time we swap carry guns or buy a new one -- like in some other states.

#28 Bhawk99

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:17 PM

My opinion is that instructors are there to instruct and not make value judgments about choices of firearms used by the civilians. Why would an instructor consider increased training requirements for a constitutional right? Your values are no better than anyone else's.

Well said

#29 GUNS&LAWYERS

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:22 PM


The FCCA does have a requirement on the type of firearm you can qualify with...it must be concealable.

"An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of
certification by a certified instructor that the applicant
passed a live fire exercise with a concealable firearm
consisting of:"


I don't know of any 'handgun' that I could not conceal under say a duster or trench coat, especially under the definition of 'concealed firearm' outlined in FCCA...

BTW as defined a 22 caliber pellet pistol meets the qualifications ;)


I know of at least one now, it's in the video.

But, seriously, I agree...all handguns are concealable. I was just trying to emphasize that there is indeed a type of firearm requirement in the law, and poke some fun at it.

It isn't even enforceable...are there any instructors out there who are going to turn students away because their firearm they brought isn't concealable? I wouldn't...unless it was the revolver in the video. Then again, maybe I would let him shoot.
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#30 BigJim

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:12 PM

Someone could go all Dirty Harry and bring a S&W model 29!

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