thornstein Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:23 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:23 PM I'm in Tazewell County and the SA's press release on not prosecuting CC violations has really set off a flood of questions. In addition to him, the Chief of Police has issued a statement to the Chamber giving guidelines to navigating this web. His department is in agreement with the SA and they won't arrest anyone as long as you have a FOID and aren't completely stupid. (Sorry, can't put a paragraph in due to I.E. 10) I have 70 employees and currently our policy is no weapons at work. This was due to it being illegal to carry. Now I have employees asking. My only concern is that FOID carry has no safety training associated with it, ZERO. How do I let individuals I wouldn't hunt with carry a weapon around others? I'm worried about negligent discharges. One of my thoughts is to say no concealed carry without the written consent of the CEO or something like that. Then I can pick and choose based on my knowledge of the individual. Nothing scientific about that but I don't want any injuries from a negligent discharge just like I don't want any injuries from getting run over by a fork truck. We issue licenses after training for driving fork trucks. Seems reasonable to want some safety training for carrying a weapon. I do not want to be a business that has a no weapons allowed sign out front. FYI, we are a manufacturing facility with little to no public traffic. Thanks.
bmyers Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:32 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:32 PM I would consult your company's attorney. We have had a few discussions here at our work place, but so far have not developed a policy yet. Our standard company policy is no guns in the work place. Since we work around potentially explosive and highly flammable material it is understandable. Plus the work place is guarded and gated to prevent unauthorized entrance. Here is an article I came across online to give you more food for thought: http://money.msn.com/now/blog--showdown-looms-over-bring-your-gun-to-work-laws
Blackhawk067 Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:32 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:32 PM Tell them if they want to carry at work, they need to have at least passed some form of basic handgun safety. NRA Basic Pistol or something....or heck, host a class for all that want to carry. Pay an NRA instructor to come in and have everyone attend who is planning on carrying. Certainly not every employee is going to carry, so work it out to cover those that do. I wouldn't pick and choose who gets to carry and who doesn't, as then you do open yourself up to some kind of discriminatory action if someone were so inclined to take it. One rule for everyone. I'm sure you have a few employees who have already passed a similar class and to those who have an issue with it, kindly remind them that you are the one liable if something were to go wrong. But again, one rule for everyone.
thornstein Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:42 PM Author Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:42 PM Excellent suggestions from both of you, thank you. I have thought about sponsoring a safety class. A good friend and local police officer runs a training outfit for Utah licensing. He would be a good option. And the corporate lawyer wouldn't hurt although I'm sure he doesn't follow this topic and may just give a generic response. It wouldn't hurt to check with him.
moparman71 Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:45 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:45 PM What does your company's insurance policy say? I know ours here specifies no weapons to be on the property.
foxriver6 Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:50 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:50 PM Even though law hasn't passed yet, that doesn't mean you as the company cannot adopt the training requirements that are in HB183. For that matter you could make them more stringent. However, arbitrary consent is a good way to leave yourself open to liability. As a business owner myself, I will watch this thread very closely.Thanks for starting it!
RandyP Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:53 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:53 PM Until we have a signed law concealed carry remains illegal, regardless of the memos of local officials - I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which your company lawyer signs on to a policy that allows an illegal act. But heck, that's why you hired a lawyer and not me - LOL
Beezil Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:54 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:54 PM I'm in Tazewell County and the SA's press release on not prosecuting CC violations has really set off a flood of questions. In addition to him, the Chief of Police has issued a statement to the Chamber giving guidelines to navigating this web. His department is in agreement with the SA and they won't arrest anyone as long as you have a FOID and aren't completely stupid. (Sorry, can't put a paragraph in due to I.E. 10) I have 70 employees and currently our policy is no weapons at work. This was due to it being illegal to carry. Now I have employees asking. My only concern is that FOID carry has no safety training associated with it, ZERO. How do I let individuals I wouldn't hunt with carry a weapon around others? I'm worried about negligent discharges. One of my thoughts is to say no concealed carry without the written consent of the CEO or something like that. Then I can pick and choose based on my knowledge of the individual. Nothing scientific about that but I don't want any injuries from a negligent discharge just like I don't want any injuries from getting run over by a fork truck. We issue licenses after training for driving fork trucks. Seems reasonable to want some safety training for carrying a weapon. I do not want to be a business that has a no weapons allowed sign out front. FYI, we are a manufacturing facility with little to no public traffic. Thanks. I own/operate a manufacturing facility as well. I have more employees than you at the moment. Our employee handbook has a one-line statement about "no firearms" This was written decades ago, and is merely a cookie-cutter handbook section, however, while I have a philosophical disagreement with including ANY verbage pertaining to firearms, the insurance company more or less expects/requires it. I am satisfied with state law providing for any applicable prohibitions. I don't like home rule, the last thing i'm interested in thinking my handbook has any real influence over human behavior. To put it simply, there will be no way in heck I will post any signage. If my insurance company makes mention of it on a future inspection, I am preparred to tell them to pound sand. as for your concerns going forward....my suggestion is to read "more guns, less crime" by john lott. your employees who can lawfully own/carry are stastically less likely to perpetrate a crime in your facility than your non-gun-owning, law-abiding employees. If you are worried about an employee expressing ill-will for the raise or promotion he/she didn't get, you know as well as any one else on this forum, what you say in your handbook, or whatever decals you decide to place around the employee entrance, will have ZERO influence. As an employer, all you can do is keep on working as hard as you do to create opportunity and a safe and healthy work environment. This includes allowing employees to operate within the law. Be honest and fair, and you never know....one day one of your employees may be in a unique position to defend against a threat aimed at you, your facility or your employees. take care
RonOglesby - Now in Texas Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:58 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 07:58 PM Another option is... no policy. actually NOT having a section on weapons and following state law is also a valid option.
miztic Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:03 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:03 PM The firearms policy at my work is:1) prove to the owner [my boss] that you're proficient, he wants to see you shoot at the range, however he didn't have time to go with me, but he knew about all the classes I've taken, so gave me the ok2) no round in the chamber [i don't agree with this one], magazine loaded is ok.3) keep it in a gunsafe at your desk This is at a small 12 employee company.
lockman Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:16 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:16 PM If the state has vetted, authorized and licensed persons to carry firearms for personal defense, then by what standards is your company using to determine that these licensed persons are not qualified on your premises. The company can always claim private property privilege to do what it pleases but that is no crutch against a claim arising from the companies lack of due diligence to protect its employees and guests. It must be made crystal clear that a prohibitive sign on the door offers no protection and is no substitute for real security measures that should include a plan recognizing the lawful carry by guests and employees in compliance with state law and reasonably accommodating regulations.
thornstein Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:45 PM Author Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:45 PM If the state has vetted, authorized and licensed persons to carry firearms for personal defense, then by what standards is your company using to determine that these licensed persons are not qualified on your premises. The company can always claim private property privilege to do what it pleases but that is no crutch against a claim arising from the companies lack of due diligence to protect its employees and guests. It must be made crystal clear that a prohibitive sign on the door offers no protection and is no substitute for real security measures that should include a plan recognizing the lawful carry by guests and employees in compliance with state law and reasonably accommodating regulations. Agreed, but no one has vetted anyone at this point. It's becoming FOID carry here in Tazewell County. I do NOT want to be one of those companies that restricts concealed carry. I agreed that signage does nothing to those with criminal intent.
Blackhawk067 Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:49 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:49 PM If the state has vetted, authorized and licensed persons to carry firearms for personal defense, then by what standards is your company using to determine that these licensed persons are not qualified on your premises. The company can always claim private property privilege to do what it pleases but that is no crutch against a claim arising from the companies lack of due diligence to protect its employees and guests. It must be made crystal clear that a prohibitive sign on the door offers no protection and is no substitute for real security measures that should include a plan recognizing the lawful carry by guests and employees in compliance with state law and reasonably accommodating regulations. The state hasn't vetted, authorized or licensed anyone at this point.
miztic Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:52 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:52 PM If the state has vetted, authorized and licensed persons to carry firearms for personal defense, then by what standards is your company using to determine that these licensed persons are not qualified on your premises. The company can always claim private property privilege to do what it pleases but that is no crutch against a claim arising from the companies lack of due diligence to protect its employees and guests. It must be made crystal clear that a prohibitive sign on the door offers no protection and is no substitute for real security measures that should include a plan recognizing the lawful carry by guests and employees in compliance with state law and reasonably accommodating regulations.Agreed, but no one has vetted anyone at this point. It's becoming FOID carry here in Tazewell County. I do NOT want to be one of those companies that restricts concealed carry. I agreed that signage does nothing to those with criminal intent. You could start recognizing out of state carry licenses at your company, although PA doesn't have training, so you might have to pick and choose, or recognize firearms training courses, like the NRA basic pistol or similar ones. There is always a chance some goof sailed through the course without learning anything, but asking for proof they completed something should weed most of those people out i'd think.
03rev Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:55 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:55 PM I think this is a topic I would talk to my attorney and insurance company about not random people on an Internet forum. From what I've heard from some family members that own businesses insurance companies control stuff like this most of the time.
RockerXX Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:56 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 08:56 PM My only concern is that FOID carry has no safety training associated with it, ZERO. How do I let individuals I wouldn't hunt with carry a weapon around others? I'm worried about negligent discharges. One of my thoughts is to say no concealed carry without the written consent of the CEO or something like that. Then I can pick and choose based on my knowledge of the individual. Nothing scientific about that but I don't want any injuries from a negligent discharge just like I don't want any injuries from getting run over by a fork truck. We issue licenses after training for driving fork trucks. Seems reasonable to want some safety training for carrying a weapon. I do not want to be a business that has a no weapons allowed sign out front. FYI, we are a manufacturing facility with little to no public traffic. Thanks. Sounds exactly like the anti's arguments to restrict 2nd Amendment Rights... And I'm not being sarcastic... I would caution you on picking employees arbitrarily and choosing who gets to exercise their Constitutional Right as it very well might open the company up to BIG civil rights violation lawsuits... IMO, It's all or nothing... If you want to let employees carry establish clear guidelines that ALL will follow and as long as they follow those guidelines they can carry, allowing your hunting buddy to carry at work but not the guy next to him because you don't like the way he acts is IMO just asking for a lawsuit...
thornstein Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:05 PM Author Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:05 PM I think this is a topic I would talk to my attorney and insurance company about not random people on an Internet forum. From what I've heard from some family members that own businesses insurance companies control stuff like this most of the time. Point taken, but the ideas that have come out of this will aid in the discussion with the insurance agent and lawyers. There are a lot of excellent recommendations here.
ajhouser73 Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:27 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 09:27 PM definitely require some sort of basic training proof certificate ect- NRA basic pistol, hunter safety, ect also suggest creating some kind of a legal waiver of liability in-case of accidental discharge ect that you , your company and insurance wouldn't be held financially responsible. again you will need to work out all the details ect with your lawyer and insurance company.
borgranta Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:07 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:07 PM I think investing in firearm safety training for interested worker at a group rate might br a good addition to a workplace safety plan especially since if one of the workers managed to disarm an active shooter it would be less hazardous for that employee to have some understanding of firearms especially if the disarmed active shooter continues to be a threat
borgranta Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:39 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:39 PM Until we have a signed law concealed carry remains illegal, regardless of the memos of local officials - I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which your company lawyer signs on to a policy that allows an illegal act. But heck, that's why you hired a lawyer and not me - LOLcurrent law allows carrying a firearm in a place of business with permission.
lockman Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:52 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:52 PM If the state has vetted, authorized and licensed persons to carry firearms for personal defense, then by what standards is your company using to determine that these licensed persons are not qualified on your premises. The company can always claim private property privilege to do what it pleases but that is no crutch against a claim arising from the companies lack of due diligence to protect its employees and guests. It must be made crystal clear that a prohibitive sign on the door offers no protection and is no substitute for real security measures that should include a plan recognizing the lawful carry by guests and employees in compliance with state law and reasonably accommodating regulations. The state hasn't vetted, authorized or licensed anyone at this point. I would suggest Guns in the Workplace by Chuck Klein. Merril Press ISBn 13: 978-0-936783-49-9, It has the pros and cons involved in the issue.
azone5 Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:54 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 10:54 PM I would require an 8 hour class so when they do apply for their Illinois license only 8 hours of training will remain. Definitely have a lawyer who specializes in firearm law draw up something for you.
AlphaKoncepts aka CGS Posted June 17, 2013 at 11:14 PM Posted June 17, 2013 at 11:14 PM I'm a business owner, and I follow the letter of the law. I would be a hypocrite to the max if I tried to prevent carry or limit carry in my company. Being as I have a love affair with CYA and risk management, it goes against much of what I believe in, but at the same time for me to preach carry and then take away the right would make me a hypocrite. If they have the proper credentials, they can carry. I have absolutely no policy about weapons at work.
Grey Beret Posted June 18, 2013 at 01:07 AM Posted June 18, 2013 at 01:07 AM As mentioned before, it is not an illegal act if the person with the firearm has permission to be in the place of business and that would apply now without having to wait for a new law to be put into operation. Secondly, it is your company and you can have any kind of training requirement that you might like. If you have a training program for fork-lift operators then you could certainly determine for yourself what is necessary to carry a firearm. Likewise, you might want to establish certain methods and places within the business that would regulate the firearms within the building. Even a fork lift driver cannot drive his fork lift into the lunch room. Likewise, a S&W 500 might inhibit work performance and be a danger even if not actually discharged. Or prohibiting carry during a meeting when armed security is provided. Of course, a secure locker system would also be a good thing to consider. Or you could prohibit carry letting it be known that the penalty for violation of the policy would be a severe verbal warning. lol
bob Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:09 AM Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:09 AM I think you are asking for trouble if you come up with a policy of explicitly allowing carry in the workplace. Eventually someone will have an AD and the company will be on the hook for it. Talk to your insurance company and your lawyer. There is no need to have a policy that follows existing law so you do not need to have a policy that says storage in a vehicle is OK. Just ignore that side of it maybe. if you decide to allow employees to carry inside your plant after you run this by your insurance company and your lawyer, I still think it is better to just ignore the whole thing. Unfortunately you have now posted about it on a public forum so there is history that can be used against you. BTW, it is not hypocritical to take the necessary steps to safeguard your business. Guns are not the only thing that matters in life. You also have an obligation to 70 people and their families to do what you can to see to it that the business is protected as best you can. And this situation is an absolute minefield.
Uncle Harley Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:16 AM Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:16 AM Until we have a signed law concealed carry remains illegal, regardless of the memos of local officials - I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which your company lawyer signs on to a policy that allows an illegal act. But heck, that's why you hired a lawyer and not me - LOL what you talking about willis? Carry on private property with the owners permission has always been legal. He could have a carry policy now if he likes. I do, however I don't have employees, but anyone with a FOID is currently allowed to carry in my business. We have a gas station in town that is the same way and even has a sign on the door, it's nothing to see an old guy in there having coffee with a bulge under his shirt, when they leave they pull the mag, clear the camber and toss it in the center console.
thornstein Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:28 AM Author Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:28 AM I think you are asking for trouble if you come up with a policy of explicitly allowing carry in the workplace. Eventually someone will have an AD and the company will be on the hook for it. Talk to your insurance company and your lawyer. There is no need to have a policy that follows existing law so you do not need to have a policy that says storage in a vehicle is OK. Just ignore that side of it maybe. if you decide to allow employees to carry inside your plant after you run this by your insurance company and your lawyer, I still think it is better to just ignore the whole thing. Unfortunately you have now posted about it on a public forum so there is history that can be used against you. BTW, it is not hypocritical to take the necessary steps to safeguard your business. Guns are not the only thing that matters in life. You also have an obligation to 70 people and their families to do what you can to see to it that the business is protected as best you can. And this situation is an absolute minefield. I don't think there is anything harmful in doing homework and looking for suggestions, even on a public forum. If I had a private forum I would have gone there first, but I think this produced more quality ideas. A lawyer or insurance professional, as good as they are, wouldn't have been able to come up with this list. Currently we have a policy and that policy has not changed in the last 25 years or so. Employees are asking, not demanding, some clarification. And I don't mind doing the homework for them (us). We will ask those that are smarter than we are in these issues but many good suggestions have come from this.
Beezil Posted June 18, 2013 at 11:51 AM Posted June 18, 2013 at 11:51 AM as a business owner, i hope Illinois law going forward DOES NOT give business owners the right to disarm lawful persons. trespass law can continue to operate as means by which business owners can decide who has access. if a business owner uses trespass law against a productive and lawful employee he/she feels is "keeping and bearing", the result will be a wrongful termination and very favorable lawsuit in the employees favor. in other words there is so much carry laws should NOT say. There are so many other laws on the books to deal with the multitude of situations. The employee handbook should serve the purpose of outlining the functionality, standards and rules of the business. One can not expect the handbook to influence personal behavior.
Indigo Posted June 18, 2013 at 12:56 PM Posted June 18, 2013 at 12:56 PM I think you are asking for trouble if you come up with a policy of explicitly allowing carry in the workplace. Eventually someone will have an AD and the company will be on the hook for it. Talk to your insurance company and your lawyer. There is no need to have a policy that follows existing law so you do not need to have a policy that says storage in a vehicle is OK. Just ignore that side of it maybe. if you decide to allow employees to carry inside your plant after you run this by your insurance company and your lawyer, I still think it is better to just ignore the whole thing. Unfortunately you have now posted about it on a public forum so there is history that can be used against you. BTW, it is not hypocritical to take the necessary steps to safeguard your business. Guns are not the only thing that matters in life. You also have an obligation to 70 people and their families to do what you can to see to it that the business is protected as best you can. And this situation is an absolute minefield. I don't think there is anything harmful in doing homework and looking for suggestions, even on a public forum. If I had a private forum I would have gone there first, but I think this produced more quality ideas. A lawyer or insurance professional, as good as they are, wouldn't have been able to come up with this list. Currently we have a policy and that policy has not changed in the last 25 years or so. Employees are asking, not demanding, some clarification. And I don't mind doing the homework for them (us). We will ask those that are smarter better informed than we are in these issues but many good suggestions have come from this. Fixed it for you. Never assume that consultants (lawyers, accountants, engineers, etc) are smarter than you are. Better informed in their area, yes. Smarter, maybe not.....make 'em prove it.
dave-na7 Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:33 PM Posted June 18, 2013 at 02:33 PM develope and run a safety program for firearms just as you do for forklifts.
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