bobapunk Posted June 7, 2013 at 05:36 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 05:36 PM What, if anything should/could be done about all of the folk offering classes (NOT sign up lists, actual classes) that they claim will satisfy the ILL 16hr CCW requirement??
azone5 Posted June 7, 2013 at 05:39 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 05:39 PM Take them with a big grain of salt. I wouldn't sign up for anything until the ISP has established a curriculum.
FSA Posted June 7, 2013 at 05:44 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 05:44 PM Let them hang themselves it will come back to bite them.
wtr100 Posted June 7, 2013 at 06:06 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 06:06 PM What, if anything should/could be done about all of the folk offering classes (NOT sign up lists, actual classes) that they claim will satisfy the ILL 16hr CCW requirement?? nothing to be done - once the law is signed I guess you could rat them out unless of course they're one of the outfits at the top of the screen that pays for Illinois Carry
Drylok Posted June 7, 2013 at 06:12 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 06:12 PM I'm just making sure my students understand that while we are pretty certain Basic pistol will satisfy the training requirement in part nothing is 100% yet. I've also told some if they're just interested in getting what they need to be legal they may hold off on basic pistol until we find out for certain whether hunter safety will count. I think if intructors are just honest and up front it will be fine. Any of them getting into to it to make a quick buck will be disappointed and they're doing it wrong to begin with.
Livewire18 Posted June 7, 2013 at 06:24 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 06:24 PM Get it in Writing that it will. Then if it wont, tell them you want the remained of the class for free and on YOUR schedule. Otherwise, tell them you want your money back but you demand to keep any certifications you gained. If it is in writing it is a contract!
Craigcelia Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:05 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:05 PM Take them with a big grain of salt. I wouldn't sign up for anything until the ISP has established a curriculum. Amen to that.
bobapunk Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:10 PM Author Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:10 PM Maybe I should have posted this up before. I am an NRA Instructor. I am not looking to take a class but I have people asking my why I am not offering the class when "these guys" are. I would rather get "these guys" who are misrepresenting their class shut down because it has the potential to make all of us other instructors look bad...
bobapunk Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:11 PM Author Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:11 PM Get it in Writing that it will. Then if it wont, tell them you want the remained of the class for free and on YOUR schedule. Otherwise, tell them you want your money back but you demand to keep any certifications you gained. If it is in writing it is a contract! I have it in writing in the form of an email; I just do not know if the ISP or the NRA would be interested enough to "talk" to the instructor...
Buzzard Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:26 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:26 PM What, if anything should/could be done about all of the folk offering classes (NOT sign up lists, actual classes) that they claim will satisfy the ILL 16hr CCW requirement?? I know what you're thinking. "Do these classes satisfy the ISP or not?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But since the ISP hasn't published the required curriculum yet, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk? Sorry! I just couldn't resist.
d38runner Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:35 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:35 PM What, if anything should/could be done about all of the folk offering classes (NOT sign up lists, actual classes) that they claim will satisfy the ILL 16hr CCW requirement?? I know what you're thinking. "Do these classes satisfy the ISP or not?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But since the ISP hasn't published the required curriculum yet, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk? Sorry! I just couldn't resist. This was pretty funny! I'll give you that. (Also one of my favorite movies.)
abolt243 Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:42 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:42 PM The "Curriculum" is in the bill. What is not listed publically yet is a list of courses that will satisfy that curriculum. We have a memorandum of understanding that NRA BP plus the Illinois legal topic plus range time will satisfy the requirements. If I had no training whatsoever, I would have no qualms taking the NRA BP course, being 99% assured that it will satisfy 8 hours of training. We'll have to wait and see how the ISP verifies that legal training and range time have been satisfied. It may simply be an affadavit signed by an approved trainer. It may be something else. It is my understanding that NO COURSE will completely satisfy the requirements currently because those qualifying classes have not been listed. And it is implied that at least 8 hours of training must be taken after the law takes affect. But that may not be true either. We need to get the law passed, establish an effective date, then see what is listed by the ISP in 60 days. Tim
boog Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:52 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:52 PM All of the above is exactly why we are ONLY putting names on a list. I would like to start teaching classes tomorrow but it ain't happeningBoog
bobapunk Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:52 PM Author Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:52 PM Maybe my question is still not clear... I have a flyer and EMAILS from a guy who is claiming to be offering ALL 16 hours of approved training. I am an instructor who WILL be offering LEGIT training once my ISP approvals are official. I am only wondering if there is a way to get LYING "instructors" shut down BEFORE they screw over a lot of people and make all of us look bad... Rock, are you asking me to PM you what I have pertaining to misrepresented ILL CCW Classes?
boog Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:55 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 08:55 PM Maybe my question is still not clear... I have a flyer and EMAILS from a guy who is claiming to be offering ALL 16 hours of approved training. I am an instructor who WILL be offering LEGIT training once my ISP approvals are official. I am only wondering if there is a way to get LYING "instructors" shut down BEFORE they screw over a lot of people and make all of us look bad... Rock, are you asking me to PM you what I have pertaining to misrepresented ILL CCW Classes?Can you please send me the info. I will sign up for the class and bust their ballsBoog
Rockdiver Posted June 7, 2013 at 09:11 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 09:11 PM Maybe my question is still not clear... I have a flyer and EMAILS from a guy who is claiming to be offering ALL 16 hours of approved training. I am an instructor who WILL be offering LEGIT training once my ISP approvals are official. I am only wondering if there is a way to get LYING "instructors" shut down BEFORE they screw over a lot of people and make all of us look bad... Rock, are you asking me to PM you what I have pertaining to misrepresented ILL CCW Classes?Can you please send me the info. I will sign up for the class and bust their balls Boog Bobapunk, yes please. Boog, You suck, that is my idea. I'm going to take it one further and go to the class. I've done it with instructor workshops. Want to carpool? Rocco
bobapunk Posted June 7, 2013 at 09:31 PM Author Posted June 7, 2013 at 09:31 PM I have all the stuff at home. I'll get it to you soon Here is the "instructor's" facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/randy.lienhart?fref=ts
boog Posted June 7, 2013 at 09:31 PM Posted June 7, 2013 at 09:31 PM RoccoThat's what I meant to say. Actually take the class and sure we can go togetherBoog
RacerDave6 Posted June 8, 2013 at 01:41 AM Posted June 8, 2013 at 01:41 AM I'm just making sure my students understand that while we are pretty certain Basic pistol will satisfy the training requirement in part nothing is 100% yet. I've also told some if they're just interested in getting what they need to be legal they may hold off on basic pistol until we find out for certain whether hunter safety will count. I think if intructors are just honest and up front it will be fine. Any of them getting into to it to make a quick buck will be disappointed and they're doing it wrong to begin with.This is what I am telling my students.We make no representation that it will be good for any part of IL CCW, only that we have been told that it should.Doing a class tomorrow in Waterman. Dave
chip Posted June 8, 2013 at 09:22 PM Posted June 8, 2013 at 09:22 PM First of all, the start of this thread makes it sound like the majority of instructors are shady characters that want to take everyone's money and sell them snake oil. Then the second half of this thread makes it sound as if we could/should do something to protect our image from less than scrupulous instructors. To the first part...I can only speak for myself and the folks I've come in contact with but...NRA Instructors (like all legal gun owners) are law abiding citizens first and foremost. They, I, WE, take laws very seriously, and would never intentionally do anything to break or circumvent a law. So what would I do about some guy(s) promoting that their class will fulfill the requirements of a non-law??? If I was really concerned, I'd call or email my brother instructor. Most likely he's been misinformed, or doesn't understand. If in fact he does understand and IS trying to "trick" people, then I'd give a call to the NRA and the AG to revoke his credentials and business license on the basis of intentional fraudulent practice. Again, ALL of the instructors I know (even the handful I don't like) are honest people that became instructors to help their friends, family, gun club, scout troup, or others learn how to safely shoot. Part of instructor training is making a class budget, and realizing that while instructing might be something you do in retirement, don't count on it as something that will fund your retirement. I don't think any intelligent person became an instructor thinking they'd become rich from their classes. As to the second part about "bad egg" instructors having an adverse effect/image on good instructors...well, that's sounds like a career battle. I've heard stories about instructors that can't shoot, can't teach, or aren't safe. If I ever personally came across one, I'd talk to them first. But I know they're out there, and if I lost a night of sleep for every sub-par instructor in the world, I'd never sleep...so I don't lose sleep over them. Just as in any skill or profession, there will be a number of great, mediocre, and poor instructors. I know that I can only control my performance/conduct, and influence that of the instructors that work for/with me. I hear about instructors with a poor image, every week, but I don't feel that they're any reflection on me. I choose to (pardon the pun) shoot for excellence, and consider as an Italian race driver said, "What's behind me...is not so important". But that's just me.
bobapunk Posted June 8, 2013 at 11:15 PM Author Posted June 8, 2013 at 11:15 PM Read the thread (INCLUDING MY SIGNATURE). I AM AN NRA INSTRUCTOR I was not bashing NRA Instructors as a whole. I merely stated that there are individuals out here who are making blatantly false claims. My first post did not even mention NRA Instructors in it at all... Sheesh...
Craigcelia Posted June 9, 2013 at 08:12 PM Posted June 9, 2013 at 08:12 PM Maybe my question is still not clear... I have a flyer and EMAILS from a guy who is claiming to be offering ALL 16 hours of approved training. I am an instructor who WILL be offering LEGIT training once my ISP approvals are official. I am only wondering if there is a way to get LYING "instructors" shut down BEFORE they screw over a lot of people and make all of us look bad... Rock, are you asking me to PM you what I have pertaining to misrepresented ILL CCW Classes?Can you please send me the info. I will sign up for the class and bust their balls Boog Bobapunk, yes please. Boog, You suck, that is my idea. I'm going to take it one further and go to the class. I've done it with instructor workshops. Want to carpool? Rocco I'll join in that carpool! Where do I sign?
chip Posted June 9, 2013 at 10:27 PM Posted June 9, 2013 at 10:27 PM SERIOUSLY...has anyone contacted this instructor? OK, anyone besides me? (Still waiting for a response).I like to think that most people (in our community) are basically honest, and when you point out a mistake, most people will do what's needed to make things right. If this guy is misinformed, I'd say it's up to US (the instructors that know the training isn't concrete yet) to let him know what he's doing is incorrect and misleading, and if he's aware and trying to scam people, then it's also up to US to contact the appropriate authorities to shut him down. Sorry if it makes me unpopular here, but planning to gang-up on this guy and trying to shame him, doesn't strike me as the most mature first course of action. Maybe there's more to you guys' relationship with this guy that I don't know about....but I'd really like to know why nobody except me bothers to contact him directly?
oldguy Posted June 9, 2013 at 10:44 PM Posted June 9, 2013 at 10:44 PM We have now turned upon our own and eating them raw. Great!
RacerDave6 Posted June 9, 2013 at 11:13 PM Posted June 9, 2013 at 11:13 PM We have now turned upon our own and eating them raw. Great!Yep. I wouldn't even worry about him.If he is lying to his students, they will take care of him.If he tries to skirt the IL law, the law will eventually catch up to him, just like it did the guy in MO.I can say I'm offering the 16 hrs also. I'm not gonna tell you when I'm offering it, just that I am. We have bigger things to worry about. Dave
chip Posted June 9, 2013 at 11:39 PM Posted June 9, 2013 at 11:39 PM I've been brainstorming. I'm putting together a 56 hour class that's guaranteed to meet the requirements of WHATEVER the law comes out to be. The class fee is $10,000.00 This week I'm offering a 50% discount to any Certified Instructors that want to take the class and bust my balls. We'll even pick you up from anywhere in Illinois. Range fee is extra. PM me to register TODAY!
Rockdiver Posted June 10, 2013 at 12:27 AM Posted June 10, 2013 at 12:27 AM Some of us actually care about what we do and how the end user students in IL get treated when they seek legitimate training...regardless of where they seek it. That you do not means nothing to me. Like it or not we are all under a microscope together for the first few phases of this program. I for one intend to do everything I can to mitigate the damage that unethical personel do to those of us that care about our designations. I would not be able to sleep at night if I did not. You can be as sarcastic as you wish, noone is going to ask you to do anything. If you are expecting us to apologize for doing so you better pull up a chair bud. Whether or not you care to be proactive with those of us who choose to police our own is something I WON'T lose any sleep over. Rocco
chip Posted June 10, 2013 at 12:56 AM Posted June 10, 2013 at 12:56 AM Rocco buddy, You need to take a hard look at everything I wrote. I took this seriously enough to actually DO SOMETHING. I reached out to contact the instructor. If you and others think that making a plan to register for the class, carpool there, and "bust his balls" is a mature course of action, well...I guess I just don't know how to "mitigate the damage that unethical personnel do," as well as you do. I'm a face to face, toe to toe kind of guy. If I've got a problem with somebody, I don't make an ambush plan on the Internet, I contact them directly and resolve the issue....as I said, if the instructor truly is mistreating his students and knowingly deceiving them, then the NRA and the AG should be contacted...not the internet posse. Please tell me how YOUR tactics show "care about what we do" and my tactics show that I don't care. Although I have time to chat on a forum on a Sunday, I assure you I have no extra time (nor desire) to plan a carpool to ambush some instructor or workshop. Maybe it's not just that I don't have the time, maybe it's that I'm too mature for that. Step down from your soap box, it's riddled with holes and is quickly collapsing. - chip
RacerDave6 Posted June 10, 2013 at 01:10 AM Posted June 10, 2013 at 01:10 AM I care about the type of training MY students get.There will be an estimated 300k people applying for a IL permit.Are we supposed to make sure that all those people are getting legitimate training?What happened to 'people need to learn to take care of themselves'?There are instructors charging 100% more than others for the same class.Is the instruction that much better?Why are we not busting down on those people that are gouging their class prices? Let the market take care of itself. It always does.
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