37 replies to this topic

[Yas]

http://chicago.cbslo...ker-park-store/

Store owner recognized he was about to get hit.  Even locked doors and had staff call 911.  Offenders eventually figured out how to unlock doors and no one in custody.

Underlying fact 911 response time was 30 minutes.

[Patriots & Tyrants]

Police response time: 30 mins
9mm response time: 300 meters/second

Which would you rather rely on?

[RECarry]

Lock the doors, here come the "Chicago values".

[Bud]

Look for the response times to get even longer. Chicago has not hired any police officers for quite a while. With retirements, resignations, etc Chicago PD is down probably at least 10% of the total force from last year and they haven't hired for several years.
McCarthy has eliminated a lot of units in order to put more people on the street but that is probably directly rewspponsible for the rise in gang-related shootings because the Gang Crimes Unit that specialized in going after them does not exist any longer. The gang related shootings account for more than 70% of the shootings in the city and probably at least half of the street crime.

The "flash mob" type crimes are going to continue to grow because the folks willing to do that type of crime realize that the cops are not readily apparent anymore.

The Wicker Park street festival was also in progress at the time and the street was blocked off which helped to slow response time. the District Commander probably decided it wasn't necessary to put roving foot patrol there as it is normally a low crime area so now, the Commander will pay the price for the mistake.

[Hatchet]

Well i'm sending this to my rep. Who said "I can see the need for concealed carry in the country where the police response time is 30 mins or longer. But not here where the response times are much faster."

[Dilbert]

I heard a pastor from inner city Detroit, Michigan say yesterday that the city has decided to close the police stations at night in an effort to save money. Yes Detroit city closes all of the police stations during the night. Hey Rahm, maybe you could follow their cost saving methods. It could save 33% of the police budget!

[GarandFan]

Sadly, most folks are willing to do pretty much what they can get away with doing.  In this type of thing, there really is rarely ever any penalty ... so they can organize and essentially get away with theft.  And to those of you advocating armed defense against these groups ... how well is that going to fly?  Some shop owner shooting down several "unarmed" teens who were not threatening any force but where "merely" shoplifting?  I can hear it now "you killed a human being over a pair of jeans?"  I seriously doubt that use of deadly force against these hooligans would be tolerated by any court or by any jury.

[Gooch]

GarandFan, on 30 July 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Sadly, most folks are willing to do pretty much what they can get away with doing.  In this type of thing, there really is rarely ever any penalty ... so they can organize and essentially get away with theft.  And to those of you advocating armed defense against these groups ... how well is that going to fly?  Some shop owner shooting down several "unarmed" teens who were not threatening any force but where "merely" shoplifting?  I can hear it now "you killed a human being over a pair of jeans?"  I seriously doubt that use of deadly force against these hooligans would be tolerated by any court or by any jury.

Yea...... I agree GF. Armed response against these scumbags would cause the next race riot the likes that we've probably never seen. (Even though I'm ok with it) However, I think arming the store employees with paintball guns would be a great solution. They would serve as a deterrent because they leave quite a welt, and would also serve to identify the perpetrators for the police. But, I would guess that the owner would be charged with assault for using it, and they are probably banned in Chicago anyway since the paintball has an "assault hopper" that  holds more than 10 paintballs.

Every time I see a video of one of these flash mobs it REALLY pisses me off!

Gooch

[Hatchet]

What about when they attack the employees there? They could have easily went after the guy behind the counter, which if i remember correctly, has happened before. In this case it could have looked bad for us. Still could have turned violent fast.

[miztic]

What about the store owner just waving his [preferably scary and black looking] rifle around?
might be enough to scare off the idiots before they break the doors down.

[JackTripper]

miztic, on 30 July 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

What about the store owner just waving his [preferably scary and black looking] rifle around?
might be enough to scare off the idiots before they break the doors down.

Honestly, that would only have made things worse. What happens when 4 of them want to get all "hard", surround the guy, and say, "whatcha gonna do? Shoot me?" Now you are screwed. Shoot, and look at a murder charge. Don't shoot, and have one of them strike you down from up close as the others stomp your head in.

God forbid, I EVER have to draw, it will be because my life is in imminent danger, and someone is getting shot right then and there. Period.
Don't pull it, if you aren't going to use it.

[Mr. Fife]

Bud, on 30 July 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

The Wicker Park street festival was also in progress at the time and the street was blocked off which helped to slow response time. the District Commander probably decided it wasn't necessary to put roving foot patrol there as it is normally a low crime area so now, the Commander will pay the price for the mistake.

I don't believe that Wicker Park is a low crime area.

[Jason4567]

I was at Wicker Park fest. I guess they didn't see too much of a security problem after this incident, as I didn't see one cop there on Sunday. Still though, this is not gang violence, just a bunch of punk kids. And Wicker park is pretty low crime... You're kidding yourself if you think it's a dangerous place.

[Mr. Fife]

It must have improved then.

[xmikex]

People need to get their **** together if they think that they will be legally justified in using deadly force over shoplifting.
Shooting a 15 year old kid for stealing a pair of jeans is going to land you in jail for the rest of your life. This isn't Texas.  And even in Texas, you might get 25 to life.

I would GLADLY pay $3,000 to NOT get in a gunfight or to NOT go to prison for the rest of my life.
Is it right for kids to steal? NO.   Is this Saudi Arabia where we should cut off their hand for stealing?

Do these kids need to get caught and prosecuted for theft? Yep.  Do they deserve to get shot for stealing jeans?  NO.

Edited by xmikex, 30 July 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[Lou]

miztic, on 30 July 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

What about the store owner just waving his [preferably scary and black looking] rifle around?
might be enough to scare off the idiots before they break the doors down.

That's scary that you would even think that is a realistic solution.

[miztic]

Lou, on 30 July 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

miztic, on 30 July 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

What about the store owner just waving his [preferably scary and black looking] rifle around?
might be enough to scare off the idiots before they break the doors down.

That's scary that you would even think that is a realistic solution.

I didn't know if it was a realistic option, that's why I asked. I could have phrased it better.

[Bud]

Once you produce your weapon you have narrowed your choices down to 1) shoot) 2) don't shoot and put it away.

You should make up your mind right now to never, ever show a weapon unless you are justified in discharging it.

There was no way that the video shows this to be shooting situation

And Wicker Park is in Chicago Police District 14 while not boring is far and away less active than the west of south sides. I worked in Area 4 which is the 9/10/11/12th districts and i would be happy to provide crime stats from any one of those districts to anything in the 14th District

Edited by Bud, 30 July 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Jason4567]

I first moved to Wicker park in '98. There was open air drug dealing, and hookers and all that. It is now almost the same as Lincoln Park. BMWs, boutiques, and fancy cocktail lounges. Condos condos condos. There is still some section 8 which contributes to the presence of punks like this, but it relatively safe. In fact, even in '98 it was no where near what Englewood and Austin are even today.

*disclaimer* - I'm not saying don't be vigilant (In Chicago, even in rockford and decatur etc...)

[Smallbore]

GarandFan, on 30 July 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Sadly, most folks are willing to do pretty much what they can get away with doing.  In this type of thing, there really is rarely ever any penalty ... so they can organize and essentially get away with theft.  And to those of you advocating armed defense against these groups ... how well is that going to fly?  Some shop owner shooting down several "unarmed" teens who were not threatening any force but where "merely" shoplifting?  I can hear it now "you killed a human being over a pair of jeans?"  I seriously doubt that use of deadly force against these hooligans would be tolerated by any court or by any jury.

During the LA Riots after the Rodney King police trial, the Korean shop owners did threaten deadly force. It worked. It is one thing to shoot a shop lifter, its another to defend yourself against a mob. The media did not beat up on the Korean shop owners.

[Bud]

Big difference in the offense.

The mobs were burning out anything they came across and were actively assaulting anyone who got in their way

[TFC]

Yas, on 30 July 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

http://chicago.cbslo...ker-park-store/

Store owner recognized he was about to get hit.  Even locked doors and had staff call 911.  Offenders eventually figured out how to unlock doors and no one in custody.

Underlying fact 911 response time was 30 minutes.

That call to 9-11 is more than likely not a call for help, but only to notify the authorities of the location of your corpse.

[output]

Quote

During the LA Riots after the Rodney King police trial, the Korean shop owners did threaten deadly force. It worked. It is one thing to shoot a shop lifter, its another to defend yourself against a mob. The media did not beat up on the Korean shop owners.

These are entirely different times as well. The news station blurred out the faces of the shoplifters because no one has been charged with a crime yet???

[Buckfarrack]

xmikex, on 30 July 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

People need to get their **** together if they think that they will be legally justified in using deadly force over shoplifting.
Shooting a 15 year old kid for stealing a pair of jeans is going to land you in jail for the rest of your life. This isn't Texas.  And even in Texas, you might get 25 to life.

I would GLADLY pay $3,000 to NOT get in a gunfight or to NOT go to prison for the rest of my life.
Is it right for kids to steal? NO.   Is this Saudi Arabia where we should cut off their hand for stealing?

Do these kids need to get caught and prosecuted for theft? Yep.  Do they deserve to get shot for stealing jeans?  NO.

No,this isn't Texas and No,you might NOT get 25 to life in Texas.My family was tied to kitchen chairs with a switch blade held to BOTH of their throats by an 18 and 19yo boy and girl.One is in prison for a few years and the other will get out after 12 months.I wish they were both dead this very minute,and if i would have walked in,they would both be dead.This was ONLY their 3rd time doing a home invasion so i guess they were a little sloppy at it.Yes,they should be shot on the spot.They deserve to be shot if they have a weapon on them and break into my business or home,i hope i shoot all of them before they decide to shoot me.That is exactly what needs to be done.I would also settle for cutting off a hand if they break into my business without using a weapon.The law doesn't want these kids,they have no money,they turn them loose. If PAIN is inflicted,the word will spread pretty quick and the small strongarm crimes will come to a screeching halt. When it comes to a criminal,age has no bearing on me at all.If they break into my place with a firearm,i hope they all get shot.

[Bud]

how do you connect these kids conducting a mass shoplifting to home invaders?

You're talking apples and oranges

[xmikex]

Buckfarrack, on 30 July 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

xmikex, on 30 July 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

People need to get their **** together if they think that they will be legally justified in using deadly force over shoplifting.
Shooting a 15 year old kid for stealing a pair of jeans is going to land you in jail for the rest of your life. This isn't Texas.  And even in Texas, you might get 25 to life.

I would GLADLY pay $3,000 to NOT get in a gunfight or to NOT go to prison for the rest of my life.
Is it right for kids to steal? NO.   Is this Saudi Arabia where we should cut off their hand for stealing?

Do these kids need to get caught and prosecuted for theft? Yep.  Do they deserve to get shot for stealing jeans?  NO.

No,this isn't Texas and No,you might NOT get 25 to life in Texas.My family was tied to kitchen chairs with a switch blade held to BOTH of their throats by an 18 and 19yo boy and girl.One is in prison for a few years and the other will get out after 12 months.I wish they were both dead this very minute,and if i would have walked in,they would both be dead.This was ONLY their 3rd time doing a home invasion so i guess they were a little sloppy at it.Yes,they should be shot on the spot.They deserve to be shot if they have a weapon on them and break into my business or home,i hope i shoot all of them before they decide to shoot me.That is exactly what needs to be done.I would also settle for cutting off a hand if they break into my business without using a weapon.The law doesn't want these kids,they have no money,they turn them loose. If PAIN is inflicted,the word will spread pretty quick and the small strongarm crimes will come to a screeching halt. When it comes to a criminal,age has no bearing on me at all.If they break into my place with a firearm,i hope they all get shot.

It's good to know who on this board supports the Sharia law penalties for theft / shoplifting.  

I was speaking specifically to shoplifting.  Shoplifting by unarmed teenagers.  YOU decide to bring in an armed home invasion incident with hostage taking.    
If your home is invaded by armed teens (or 50 year olds for that matter), you're legally & ethically justified in shooting them to STOP them from what they were doing.  Not as a punishment - but to STOP the threat.  I don't think ANYONE on this board or a jury in the state of Illinois would have ANY problem with shooting armed home invaders.  

Rather than talking about wanting to take revenge on a very personal incident, why don't you comment on the issue at hand - Shoplifting Flash Mobs, how to respond and poor police response times?

[Buckfarrack]

Bud, on 30 July 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

how do you connect these kids conducting a mass shoplifting to home invaders?

You're talking apples and oranges

While i somewhat agree you and the OP,a person would probably do several years for firing/defending himself in THAT county but, they ARE home invaders if you ask me.I do not agree what the OP typed,bringing this crime to another area,or state.This was NOT a "shoplifting crme" It was breaking and entering,burglary and robbery....WITHOUT using deadly force/weapons.
I don't care how old the persons are, if they BREAK-IN a business and PAIN was inflicted,this BULL*@#$ would come to a screeching halt.I realize some might think that is just sick,or inhumane,but it would save hundreds of 'scumbags' lives and maybe help put SOME of them on track.As they grow older,a 85% prison return rate ain't cuttin' for me Bud.As you can probably tell,i'm still VERY pissed about two young ass punks,coming BACK to my families house to KILL them both,as the police pulled-up.Where does it stop?

[Buckfarrack]

xmikex, on 30 July 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

Buckfarrack, on 30 July 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

xmikex, on 30 July 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

People need to get their **** together if they think that they will be legally justified in using deadly force over shoplifting. Shooting a 15 year old kid for stealing a pair of jeans is going to land you in jail for the rest of your life. This isn't Texas. And even in Texas, you might get 25 to life. I would GLADLY pay $3,000 to NOT get in a gunfight or to NOT go to prison for the rest of my life. Is it right for kids to steal? NO. Is this Saudi Arabia where we should cut off their hand for stealing? Do these kids need to get caught and prosecuted for theft? Yep. Do they deserve to get shot for stealing jeans? NO.

No,this isn't Texas and No,you might NOT get 25 to life in Texas.My family was tied to kitchen chairs with a switch blade held to BOTH of their throats by an 18 and 19yo boy and girl.One is in prison for a few years and the other will get out after 12 months.I wish they were both dead this very minute,and if i would have walked in,they would both be dead.This was ONLY their 3rd time doing a home invasion so i guess they were a little sloppy at it.Yes,they should be shot on the spot.They deserve to be shot if they have a weapon on them and break into my business or home,i hope i shoot all of them before they decide to shoot me.That is exactly what needs to be done.I would also settle for cutting off a hand if they break into my business without using a weapon.The law doesn't want these kids,they have no money,they turn them loose. If PAIN is inflicted,the word will spread pretty quick and the small strongarm crimes will come to a screeching halt. When it comes to a criminal,age has no bearing on me at all.If they break into my place with a firearm,i hope they all get shot.

It's good to know who on this board supports the Sharia law penalties for theft / shoplifting. I was speaking specifically to shoplifting. Shoplifting by unarmed teenagers. YOU decide to bring in an armed home invasion incident with hostage taking. If your home is invaded by armed teens (or 50 year olds for that matter), you're legally & ethically justified in shooting them to STOP them from what they were doing. Not as a punishment - but to STOP the threat. I don't think ANYONE on this board or a jury in the state of Illinois would have ANY problem with shooting armed home invaders. Rather than talking about wanting to take revenge on a very personal incident, why don't you comment on the issue at hand - Shoplifting Flash Mobs, how to respond and poor police response times?

How do you get Shoplifting,reading this article? This was Burglary and robbery of approx. 3000 dollars.The doors were Locked! If anyone broke into my business,i would hope they get a hand cut off,or if they had weapons,i would be the first one to shoot more than likely.

Edited by Buckfarrack, 30 July 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[C0untZer0]

The shop owner was dumb to call in and report a group of African American teens shoplifting.

If he would have said that a well dressed middle aged white guy was in the store and his front pocket was sort of printing - like he might be carrying a concealed handgun - he would have had the whole department there and the neighboring department's SWAT teams too...

[xmikex]

Buckfarrek - Honestly, you need to do a gut-check and THINK about your pre-programmed responses.  IF (God forbid) you're put in a situation like the above and you decide to respond the way you've said you will, you're going to go to prison for a long time.  You might be "Right" in your head, but a jury is going to send you away.

It may not be the way you WANT things to be but it's the way things are.   I look forward to hearing about your efforts to bring Sharia punishment to Illinois.  

Edited by xmikex, 30 July 2012 - 08:04 PM.