25 replies to this topic

[Palatine Chris]

I have honestly made a effort to answer this question for myself, and have been unable to do so.

1) When you are a average FOID-possessing gun owner in Illinois,
2) who does not possess a FFL, never has, and does not sell guns for a living,
3)and you attend a Illinois gun show with privately owned firearms you are selling,

WHO/what phone number am I supposed to call for the now apparently mandatory "gun show private-sale" background check?

I have checked the Illinois State Police web site and it has NO PHONE NUMBER listed and no mention of how to call for a background check of another private party to legally transfer the firearm to them at a gun show, but the ISP web site does conveniently mention that the state law requires private owners to complete the same phone approval background check at a gun show as would be required of a professional FFL holder.

This is frankly... insane.  I am wondering if the state is NOT publicizing this # as a way to prevent such private sales at Illinois gun shows.  

I have no problem calling in to their system and getting the approval that is now mandated by the state of Illinois, but WHY is this Illinois background check phone # being kept secret??  If the state of Illinois wants to mandate this, they have a obligation to provide access to the phone number you need to call to get this approval, yet from what I can find, this ISP approval phone # for private sales is a bigger secret than Obama's actual place of birth. .  

I have about 7-8 mostly rifles I want to sell off, and I am getting tired of getting Cabelas offering me 20% of a items value, and just want to figure out how to legally transfer these firearms myself instead of giving them away to a shop or Cabelas at below wholesale.

Edited by Palatine Chris, 11 July 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[Jim Smyth]

Sell them as a FTF (Face to Face) transfer and follow the directions on the back of your FOID card, its that simple. If your a FFL you have to comply with the BATF rules. They are the ones that do the background checks and its also why you cant.

[Palatine Chris]

Jim Smyth, on 11 July 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Sell them as a FTF (Face to Face) transfer and follow the directions on the back of your FOID card, its that simple. If your a FFL you have to comply with the BATF rules. They are the ones that do the background checks and its also why you cant.

Thanks for the reply JIm. I know that used to be legal but before we got rid of Blago, he signed a law that requires even private owners of firearms to call in for background checks if the sale was arranged at a gun show.  Even if I am only selling my personal privately owned rifle to another private party at the gun show.

When I went to the ISP web site to find out who to call, and how to comply with this, there is no mention of the phone # to call for this, only a mention that you have to do it!

.

Quote

(a-5) Any person who is not a federally licensed firearm dealer and who desires to transfer or sell a firearm while that person is on the grounds of a gun show must, before selling or transferring the firearm, request the Department of State Police to conduct a background check on the prospective recipient of the firearm in accordance with Section 3.1. If the transfer or sale took place at a gun show, the record shall include the unique identification number. Failure to record the unique identification number is a petty offense.

http://www.ilga.gov/...p?Name=094-0353

(
(430 ILCS 65/3.1)  (from Ch. 38, par. 83-3.1) Sec. 3.1. Dial up system. (a) The Department of State Police shall provide a dial up telephone system or utilize other existing technology which shall be used by any federally licensed firearm dealer, gun show promoter, or gun show vendor who is to transfer a firearm under the provisions of this Act. The Department of State Police may shall utilize existing technology which allows the caller to be charged a fee equivalent to the cost of providing
this service but not to exceed $2.

Problem is, the ISP is not mentioning to anyone that I can find what this number is to call, how to do it, etc.. Its been made a legal requirement with no way to comply with it available.

The system that does exist is only for FFL to my understanding, not for private parties as the act requires one to call.

[firepiper]

I agree with Jim....

Post 'em here in the for sale section and see where it goes.....

or feel free to send a PM with what you're looking to let go......

[Palatine Chris]

firepiper, on 11 July 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

I agree with Jim....

Post 'em here in the for sale section and see where it goes.....

or feel free to send a PM with what you're looking to let go......

thanks Firepiper, I am new here and will probably go that route, but I really think that we need to get a answer from someone on this, because this is a serious problem waiting to trip up a honest private party, who is trying to comply with Illinois law,

and it appears that Illinois has passed a requirement that it has not implement a way to actually comply with.

This is fully what I WOULD expect out of the crooks running this state, but this is about as outrageous a act as the Springfield mafia has ever pulled off, creating a legal obligation to conduct a phone check, and then not creating any means to do it.

It is a way to keep legal private parties from going to gun shows, unless they deal exclusively with other FFL's or shops and there markup, in my view.

[eric2281]

I call dibs on an M44 if ya got one!

Honestly though, just post what you're selling in the F/S section. They'll move FAST if priced right.

[firepiper]

PC - I think you're getting tripped up on the part that applies this to the grounds of a gun show.....face to face on terms on back of FOID at almost any other location still complies with existing law....

Anyone here feel otherwise?  please feel free to let us know....

[Federal Farmer]

Gun shows are supposed to provide the service for a nominal fee, if I recall correctly.

[Palatine Chris]

eric- strangely.. I do sort of. Its a 1944 M38 that was refurbed into a M44 stock. (no bayonet on those).

firepiper- I tried selling my K98 online at the Mauser forum. I got literally 50 emails all asking for specific pictures/manufacturer codes on the bolt, marks inside the stock,
offering me 100 dollars, asking me if I can mail the gun to Oregon when I already said it was Illinois local pickup only.. telling me they could only come that morning at 6:00 am when I have no availability at that time.

It works -sometimes- if you happen to have a friend who wants exactly what you have, or you luck into a buyer who is specifically looking for exactly what you are selling, but its unwieldy to do in cases where you dont want to wait 6 months or a year to find a buyer.

The problem I foresee with this "private seller mandated BG check+no number to call" scam courtesy of Blago/ISP is this;

1)You sell a gun to a private buyer at a show, comply with waiting period, but cannot call the ISP for the required BG check since no such feature is available or publicized
2)That gun at some point comes into the hands of LE, (domestic violence order, crime, used in defence, traffic stop, etc..) at no fault of your own. Buyer is seeking to cooperate with cops, tells them "I got it from a seller at the gun show"
3)The LE do a trace and come back to the last owner looking for violations, and ask you "where is your state mandated private sale approval number"?
4)You are now open to having everything you own confiscated, checked over, held as evidence or taken for investigation
5)This is now offering LE entry to "violate" you, at which point you will need to hire a attorney to fight the criminal charges, as well as whatever they try to tack on for you SKS that is missing its bayonet..etc..

This may have already happened to someone for all I know, and I sure dont want any of this happening to me.. all over a legal obligation that Illinois has instituted, and ensured that you have no way to comply with the requirement. While that argument may help you in court, you may be facing other charges by that point and you will have costly attorneys expenses over this scam system.

Gun shows are a important way to sell your personal firearms because I do not have to spend days returning emails, answering questions and sending people photos who are casually interested. While FTC is best, it simply is not always possible to do, and we should not be shut out of selling our own property at a gun show due to being non-FFL.

[abolt243]

Federal Farmer, on 11 July 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Gun shows are supposed to provide the service for a nominal fee, if I recall correctly.

Yes, gun shows have that service provided for sales on the gun show grounds.  Or, you can make the transaction while not on the gun show grounds.  Two things to remember.  The parking lot is considered the gun show grounds.  All other requirements must be met.  I.E., exchange copies of FOIDs with the buyer along with the description of the gun and all waiting periods must be observed between two private parties.

There are undercover agents at the shows trying to buy guns illegally.  Be sure you are observing all laws pertaining to private sales.

AB

[Palatine Chris]

Federal Farmer, on 11 July 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Gun shows are supposed to provide the service for a nominal fee, if I recall correctly.

From my reading of the statute, it is obligatory on the private seller, while the gun show venue MAY institute a call-in feature, none of which is delineated or finalized in this statute. Its making the burden on private sellers immediate (upon Blagos signing), while the ISP is left to sort out the murky details.. whenever...

I went to a gun show in Illinois since this has been in effect, and the venue  promoter did transfer several rifles for me, but as a private FFL, costing 25 bucks a pop (the law says in can cost no more that TWO dollars to call into the state yourself for sale approval), while no system was in effect for me to do my own call-in to comply with this private seller transfer 'law'.  

As far as I can see, this is pretty serious because Illinois has put in place a law that no one affected can possibly comply with, since the state never instituted the program for private call-ins or has not in any way made the # publicly known-
however under the terms of the statute, its still the law on the books and is obligatory on private persons selling their own property at a gun show. This is basically a trap waiting for anyone who falls into it, and even if you beat it in court later, it will cost you and I dont see the state of Illinois caring when you point out that they did not implement a way to comply.

Frankly, I also think this is probably seen as a win/win by ISP and FFL sellers, since it makes it easier to get private gun owners for some violation when they sell their firearms, thus discouraging any sales and making them more difficult,
and this cuts down on competition for FFL who are running for-profit businesses and would like to cut private sellers out of gun shows.

Edited by Palatine Chris, 11 July 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Tvandermyde]

abolt243, on 11 July 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Federal Farmer, on 11 July 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Gun shows are supposed to provide the service for a nominal fee, if I recall correctly.

Yes, gun shows have that service provided for sales on the gun show grounds.  Or, you can make the transaction while not on the gun show grounds.  Two things to remember.  The parking lot is considered the gun show grounds.  All other requirements must be met.  I.E., exchange copies of FOIDs with the buyer along with the description of the gun and all waiting periods must be observed between two private parties.

There are undercover agents at the shows trying to buy guns illegally.  Be sure you are observing all laws pertaining to private sales.

AB

Yes if you are selling as a private seller, you must do a FTIP check. I will ask how it is suppose to be handled, but i would check with the show promoter.

AB -- when a sale takes place, only the seller needs to keep a reocrd of the sale. the buyer is not required to keep anything. The waiting period, the records all of it is on the seller, not the buyer

[abolt243]

Tvandermyde, on 11 July 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

abolt243, on 11 July 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Federal Farmer, on 11 July 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Gun shows are supposed to provide the service for a nominal fee, if I recall correctly.

Yes, gun shows have that service provided for sales on the gun show grounds.  Or, you can make the transaction while not on the gun show grounds.  Two things to remember.  The parking lot is considered the gun show grounds.  All other requirements must be met.  I.E., exchange copies of FOIDs with the buyer along with the description of the gun and all waiting periods must be observed between two private parties.

There are undercover agents at the shows trying to buy guns illegally.  Be sure you are observing all laws pertaining to private sales.

AB

Yes if you are selling as a private seller, you must do a FTIP check. I will ask how it is suppose to be handled, but i would check with the show promoter.

AB -- when a sale takes place, only the seller needs to keep a reocrd of the sale. the buyer is not required to keep anything. The waiting period, the records all of it is on the seller, not the buyer

True.  I like to keep a copy as a buyer so that should some question arise, I have a record of where the firearm came from.  But, you're correct, according to the law, only the seller need adhere to the paperwork and WP requirements.

Any show that I've been to has a background check table set up for private sales on the show grounds.  Usually $5-$10 fee.

AB

[Palatine Chris]

Quote

Yes, gun shows have that service provided for sales on the gun show grounds.

Quote

Any show that I've been to has a background check table set up for private sales on the show grounds.  Usually $5-$10 fee.

I cannot speak about Downstate shows, since I have never been to one, But I can tell you I have been to Lake county, McHenry County, Kane County shows, Rockford area shows.. and I have never seen a background check table. ever.

The show that they did do transfers for me set me back 25 bucks each,
when under the Blago private sale law they cannot legally charge more than 2 dollars, so effectively all the burdens of this law are hitting private gun owners at gun shows,
while none of the means of complying with them under the terms of the law are in effect, being enforced, or implemented.

The Winnebago show used to do free transfers for out of area sellers, since some seller from downstate did not want to drive back to rockford three days later to schedule pickup appointments, but this was geared toward the waiting period portion from what I saw, and did not involve the background check which was expected to be done by the (FFL) seller.

[vezpa]

Some gun shows I've been to in Wisconsin strictly forbid private gun sales within 100 feet of the property.

[cavsgt]

The number to call is 800/752-1246.  They are usually friendly and the whole thing takes about 5 minutes.  You will be given an approval number and charged I think $2.00, Damn cheap for the piece of mind.  As to taking the sale else where to finish, not knowing all of the ins and outs no way would I try it.

Down at Collinsville a couple years ago there was an individual that out smarted them.  A little latter he was spread across the trunk of a squad with enough different agencies there to start a war.  With all of this discourse I guess IMHO it is just not worth the chance

Edited by cavsgt, 11 July 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[Jim Smyth]

I don't do many gun shows (didn't realize it was this messed up) but talk about screwing up a system that wasn't broke. This state is unbelievable. This 3 day waiting period really pisses me off since it makes no sense for someone that already owns guns! I have lived in Illinois for 53 years. I have one son left and he will graduate December of 2014. Spring of 2015 we will be putting the house up for sale. I am so tired of Illinois politics I am going to leave. Sad you have to do that but warmer winter weather and cheaper taxes is calling my name plus I "WILL" have CCW where I am moving. I hope some day the #SS Hats get removed from office here and someone that has some common sense gets in and makes things right. Doesn't make sense the city of Chicago can control the whole State.

[Tvandermyde]

AB -- yup you can do that. I go through my records every so often and if the bill of sale is older than 10 years, I shredd it.

I keep reciepts for guns until I get things appriased for my insurance.

guys the statute say that the State Police can only charge $2. Doesn't say what the dealer of show promoter can charge. A lot of dealers in the collars charge $5. some of them use the money for a legal defense fund. It started when Daley was suing all of them to run them out of business. It was an easy way to fund the effort and defense. Most people don;t notice it.

[Palatine Chris]

cavsgt, on 11 July 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

The number to call is 800/752-1246.  They are usually friendly and the whole thing takes about 5 minutes.  You will be given an approval number and charged I think $2.00, Damn cheap for the piece of mind.

Cavsgt, thank you so much. That is exactly what I was looking for.

When I googled that number though, I find mentions on AR15.com that it is 866-752-1246  you call instead of '1-800'. Apparently you can do this for yourself without running around the show begging each FFL to make the call for you, while he debates whether he wants to and how much he will charge you, while your table of sale items is left unattended.

From AR15.com-

Quote

The FTIP (firearm transfer inquiry program) is called at 866-752-1246. Same number a dealer calls to conduct a BGC. option 2 is for non dealers. you need the buyers foid info. Type in their number and exp date and date of birth, and wether it is a handgun, longgun or other, you will get either a delayed or approved or denied. If approved you get a approval number that starts with a A. Also the call costs $2 pay with CC. No serial number of gun or anything like that.

http://www.ar15.com/...8&f=23&t=340756

The fact that this information is not prominently displayed on ISP's firearm/gun show FAQ page and on the property at every Illinois gun show is legal malpractice.  If they are going to require this, they need to make the effort to publicize this at LEAST on the state police web site..

[Palatine Chris]

Tvandermyde, on 12 July 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

guys the statute say that the State Police can only charge $2. Doesn't say what the dealer of show promoter can charge. A lot of dealers in the collars charge $5. some of them use the money for a legal defense fund.

Sir, you need to keep in mind that in the Chicago region / collar counties it can be almost impossible in some areas to even FIND a FFL willing to do a transfer. At a gun show or shop most will refuse to do a transfer for a third party, and the ones who will are often as much as $50 per transfer, since they have a effective monopoly and are making good money for 20 minutes of work.

Off-topic, but- I tried to have a local shop transfer a rifle to me from a shotgun news seller, and they wanted $50 for the transfer PLUS a slew of various other fees that would make all the charges and fees that turn up during a mortgage closing blush with shame.  To transfer that 219 dollar rifle to me through the shop FFL would have cost me 79 dollars in fees.  

This information about the private sale call-in # should be readily available to everyone and well known to the firearm community by now, instead it is information that almost no one knows about..

I think the state is happy to keep quiet about this, since it limits the private sales at gun shows which was their original intent in the first place,
and the FFL community is generally eager to gain the revenue from getting paid to do the transfers (which I have never encountered in Northern Illinois at less than 20 bucks a rifle), as well as to limit the private sellers from competing with their sales at gun shows.
There are many great FFL who have to put up with a lot of BS and constant harassment from BATF, and I am not insulting them, but they do in fact have a profit motive to make sure that all sales move through them, and that is what the Brady-Bunch want as well.  All  gun shows in Illinois have to be licensed by the state police to my understanding, and as part of that every one of these venues should be obligated to prominently post the method/number for private sellers to call, so that people who are trying to follow the law CAN.

Edited by Palatine Chris, 12 July 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[Lake Shore Drive]

I'm confused by this thread. Does the background check/phone call requirement also apply to face-to-face private sales that have nothing to do with a gun show or being nowhere near a gun show? I was always under the impression that face-to-face private sales don't require a background check and that only a valid FOID held by both parties and doing the waiting period was enough.

[Mr. Fife]

Actually, if you read the back of the FOID card, only the buyer needs to have a FOID.

[Federal Farmer]

Lake Shore Drive, on 12 July 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

I'm confused by this thread. Does the background check/phone call requirement also apply to face-to-face private sales that have nothing to do with a gun show or being nowhere near a gun show? I was always under the impression that face-to-face private sales don't require a background check and that only a valid FOID held by both parties and doing the waiting period was enough.

Yes, this applies to private sales at gun shows only.

[Lake Shore Drive]

Mr. Fife, on 12 July 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Actually, if you read the back of the FOID card, only the buyer needs to have a FOID.

One can't legally own or possess a firearm in Illinois without being an FOID holder unless you are just passing through the state right? So I always thought a seller located in Illinois is also required to have an FOID.

Federal Farmer, on 12 July 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Yes, this applies to private sales at gun shows only.

Thanks.

[BigJim]

Federal Farmer, on 12 July 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Lake Shore Drive, on 12 July 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

I'm confused by this thread. Does the background check/phone call requirement also apply to face-to-face private sales that have nothing to do with a gun show or being nowhere near a gun show? I was always under the impression that face-to-face private sales don't require a background check and that only a valid FOID held by both parties and doing the waiting period was enough.

Yes, this applies to private sales at gun shows only.

I guess if it was me I would have offered to meet the buyer/seller at Starbucks for a coffee and did the transaction in the parking lot FTF.

[Palatine Chris]

Quote

I guess if it was me I would have offered to meet the buyer/seller at Starbucks for a coffee and did the transaction in the parking lot FTF.

Slinking around like we are perverts selling old pornography out of the back of a rusty van in the parking lot, or accepting being marginalized and compelled to hide completely legal and honest sales is not something that should be accepted.

By arranging the sale at the Gun Show, you are now legally 'on the hook' to complete it through the specified channel as outlined under the law. You have no idea who that other person is that you are dealing with or what their background is.

Agreeing to go complete the sale elsewhere off-site could get you arrested should that person be ISP/LE, or someone they sent to the show who is seeking to get other sellers on trumped up violations of the 'Gun Show private sales law'.. he may be someone you have dealt with before or consider a buddy, but be cooperating to get himself out of some trouble, or seek leniency for charges he was facing.

THIS is why its a slippery slope for the NRA to stand by and simply accept something like this, which seeks to turn law abiding private gun owners into back-alley creeps lurking around surreptitiousness.

While its true as one poster here said, "YOU CAN STILL ARRANGE A SALE ANYPLACE BUT A GUN SHOW" without worrying about the call-in obligation on private sellers..
What do you think is going to happen to you if you are showing your legal firearm to a potential buyer in the parking lot at 'Chucky Cheese' or the lot outside Dominicks, and the local district patrol car rolls by and sees this,
someone in the office building looks down and sees this from their office,
someone parks their mini-van next to you to take their kids little league team out for ice cream..???

The reason the gun show is a important place to be able to openly, safely, and LEGALLY sell your property to other gun owners is that you are protected by being out and the open and surrounded by other legal gun owners and legal sellers.

Taking that away, or passing a law requiring private parties to do a background check while the ISP web site does not have the number to call, instruct anyone how to make the call, etc.. is being done for a reason in my opinion, which is that it deters private sales in illinois (which is their intent) and it puts HONEST people who were unware of this new law into the legal system if you happen to catch them, which then forfeits their firearms to the state authorities in all likelihood.    

EVEN ON THIS SITE, which consists of probably some of the most pro-active and knowledgeable people you can find in the state of Illinois concerning state firearms laws.. almost NO ONE knew the procedures/laws that pertain to complying with this.. and even AFTER reading the thread people did not understand the issue or how to comply with this law.

Anyone going to the ISP web site will find absolutely NOTHING about this..