8 replies to this topic

[Dilbert]

I found an article online were the author described a Simunitions class he took with a friend. It appears it was at a paintball facility. The exception was that the instructors were using an FX marking round cartridge. The idea appears to be sound. Practice in an environment where you can train your brain to respond to a threat in the proper manner. He also talks about (with photos) being struck with the rounds and the pain and bruising. The theory is “a pain penalty.” I have not heard of any such training facility at any of the gun shows or in conversation with friends. Does anybody know more about this?

http://www.thetrutha...-will-get-shot/

[Bud]

I am pretty sure that Glock 21 (Illinois Carry screen name)with Fortress Defense does that or similar training:

www.fortressdefense.com

[Jim Smyth]

Simunitions is used for live fire exercises in Law Enforcement. This visual should help.

[Gunslinger]

Is this the same as "sim rounds"?

If so I've used them before I while in the service, basically a powder charged paintball. We had to swap out the lower receivers on our M4s but I think that was because the caliber is not 5.56mm with those. Do they make them in all calibers that would be awesome you could load up your favorite gun and shoot your friends with it!

[kermit315]

they hurt when you get hit with them.  We used them on Glock frames for active shooter/building search training with the SO.

[John Wisch]

Simunition tFX the Corporation dose all that it can to keep these rounds, and the kits for firing them from your personal weapons, as hard to get as possible. This includes the designated sims only weapons that are made too.

They have their distributors sign agreements that they will only sell to LE and Military or other accredited groups. Also the training companies that buy from Simunition and or the distributors are suppose to agree to not sell transfer or train "non-authorized personnel". i.e. civilians!!! with the product.

OH YEAH, one more thing, they aint cheap.

The pistol rounds fire from 9mm mags and require a barrel replacement kit to use them, this prevents a live round from chambering if one was mistakenly loaded in or left in the mag that is being used.

HK MP5 also uses the same pistol round.

The 5.56 goes into a AR/M16 mag.

12ga has an adapter shell that the round plugs into.

.38 rounds have a bushing that gets inserted into each cylinder of your revolver.

They are not accurate at long distance, they are primarily used to train up close and personal. Contact distance to 50 feet roughly 20 yards max.

You know room clearing, traffic stop, tactical training, interview distance worst case scenario gun grab, that kind of stuff.

As far as hurting, yeah they hurt... I seen an Agent take a round to his chin at 10 am in the morning. The shot was delivered from about 10 feet away.
He bled like a stuck pig till 4pm in the afternoon when we stopped running the scenario based force on force training. It did not help that the chin strap from his helmet kept rubbing on it.

I have been shot at point blank range in the pinky knuckle by an HK MP5 while I was attempting a weapon disarm of the agent, It caused the skin to ooze blood, but the bad part is it took 2+ months for the swelling in the knuckle to completely go away. It looked like I smashed it with a hammer.

I also know a guy with a glass eye, who lost his real one to a sims round on an oil rig as his team was training. Bad luck, the round slipped past his wrap around eye protection. I'm tellin ya from experience, good goggles are what you should be using if you training with these, oh yeah, don't forget about a throat protector, it can close up your wind pipe if you get shot in the larynx.

Head shots happen...

[xmikex]

LOL... You're 7 days too late.  I just ran a 2-day scenario-based Force On Force class in Germantown WI. last weekend geared to civilian CCW.

SIMS hurt and you will get bruises depending on where you get hit and if the skin is covered.  If you get hit on bare skin, it can break the surface and (as others have noted) make you bleed.  I tend to think that UTM is a much more painful / dangerous marking round.

(Here's my thread on that class: http://illinoiscarry...38;fromsearch=1  )

There are 2 types of FOF:
1) Skills-Based
- where you learn new weapons handling/ tactics / etc. under stress
- the decision to fight has (generally) already been made

2) Scenario-Based
- where you walk into a scenario with roleplayers playing different roles and have to make the decision to fight, be a good witness, walk away, de-escalate, escalate, etc. etc. etc.  It's much more of a "choose your own adventure" experience in the sense that your actions/tactics will determine the roleplayers' reaction and how the scenario goes.
-I give every student an inert cell phone and they get to make 911calls (if the particular situation they find themselves in calls for it).
-A typical scenario will begin: "You need to go to the ATM to withdraw $20.  Begin."  How the rest of your scenario goes is up to your reactions to the people and situations you encounter.


Hope this helps explain the types of FOF, etc.  -Mike

Some cell phone pics from the weekend (roleplayers wearing clear face shields so students can read reactions / see where the roleplayers are looking, etc.)

Edited by xmikex, 23 June 2012 - 02:15 AM.

[Dilbert]

Thank you.  This is exactly what I was interested in learning. I will investigate further and possibly post my experiences. My concern is WHEN Illinois starts CCW, I (for one) would like to be the best prepared to minimize possible mistakes. Right now I will continue learn to from the members and look into some of these type of courses.

Thanks again for your help.

[xmikex]

@ gunslinger - SIMS training has resulted in a LOT of people getting killed.  Nearly every time it's due to cops being lazy and coming back from lunch without properly disarming OR they re-arm themselves and deciding to do "just 1 more run".  This results in people and getting shot with a real gun that the

I run a sterile training environment.  
EVERYONE leaves weapons out in their cars or has it locked up in a room.
EVERYONE does a self pat down, then gets patted down 2x by by 2 different people.
No guns, no knives, no flashlights with pointy bezels, etc. etc.

IF someone has to go out to their car for something, they go with another student and everyone gets searched when they get back.

I generally prefer to have 1 student go on a lunch -run so we're only searching 1 person for the lunchbreak.


If people want to do SIMS training, I'd recommend getting Airsoft versions of their weapons - it's cheaper than SIMS, readily available and hopefully different enough that, after de-gunning, it won't be confused with the real thing.  Just be VERY careful with it and you need an impartial "judge" so things don't get too wild / out of control and students don't take cheap shots / get too worked up and it doesn't turn into a "paintball game".

Edited by xmikex, 23 June 2012 - 12:36 PM.