2071 replies to this topic

[oneshot]

TyGuy, on 06 August 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I do like the Taurus more than the LCP now that I have shot both, but it would be a hassle to sell my LCP, holster, accessories, etc.... and re-outfit myself with the Taurus, so I'll stick with the LCP.  For close encounters the differences are negligible anyway.

I was considering the Kahr or maybe the Bersa (forget the number )or KelTec PF9, but it's all conjecture until the ruling comes down anyway.

Yeah.  It never hurts to bolster your inventory of options, that's for sure!  I'm thinking of my Kahr as a nice console piece more and more!  The dilemma that I've had with my MK9 is that it is definitely hefty, being the full steel version...I've thought about switching to the polymer frame, but I've heard of a few shearing the frame rails and so that makes me skittish.  Ugh, it's not easy finding just the right piece.  The Rohrbaugh is super expensive and they're so small that some have had the slide crack where the steel is thin!

Edited by oneshot, 06 August 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[output]

Quote

Yeah.  It never hurts to bolster your inventory of options, that's for sure!  I'm thinking of my Kahr as a nice console piece more and more!  The dilemma that I've had with my MK9 is that it is definitely hefty, being the full steel version...I've thought about switching to the polymer frame, but I've heard of a few shearing the frame rails and so that makes me skittish.  Ugh, it's not easy finding just the right piece.  The Rohrbaugh is super expensive and they're so small that some have had the slide crack where the steel is thin!

When you are ready to sell the MK9 let me know

[Kipp Jones]

Is a ruling expected today?

[boog]

Kipp Jones, on 06 August 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Is a ruling expected today?

Don't hold your breath
Boog

[Kipp Jones]

Ok, I saw Molly reserve a thread for it and thought a ruling was coming today.

[Kipp Jones]

Ok, I saw Molly reserve a thread for it and thought a ruling was coming today.

[mrpapageorgio]

Kipp Jones, on 06 August 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Ok, I saw Molly reserve a thread for it and thought a ruling was coming today.

Since this is the last week of the term with (I believe) Wednesday being the last day, a lot of people are expecting a ruling released before they finish.

[oneshot]

output, on 06 August 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

Quote

Yeah.  It never hurts to bolster your inventory of options, that's for sure!  I'm thinking of my Kahr as a nice console piece more and more!  The dilemma that I've had with my MK9 is that it is definitely hefty, being the full steel version...I've thought about switching to the polymer frame, but I've heard of a few shearing the frame rails and so that makes me skittish.  Ugh, it's not easy finding just the right piece.  The Rohrbaugh is super expensive and they're so small that some have had the slide crack where the steel is thin!

When you are ready to sell the MK9 let me know

Thanks, I've tossed the idea around here and there.  If I think I want to for sure, I'll let you know!

[Howard Roark]

It was pretty cool to attend the Moore/Shepard oral arguments at the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals a few months ago.   It was the first time I've been in court for one of those proceedings.   As I'm waiting along with all of you for the court to publish it's opinion and judgement, I'm thinking back to my impressions and thoughts while the oral arguments were being presented.   Alan Gura and David Segale were on the left side of the court room and the state's attorneys were on the right, from the perspective of the audience.   When Alan Gura made his presentation and points of argument, the judges really pressured him to "compromise" to the idea that certain place restrictions were good policy and acceptable.   Alan held his ground and made his point that the court proceeding was about the question of the constitutionality of a total ban on bearing arms in Illinois, not about certain restrictions about place or time.    My thoughts during that phase of the proceeding were that the judges were quite against recognizing a right to bear arms under the Second Amendment.  Those thoughts were erased when the states lawyer's turn came and he was really hammered down by the judges, particularly by Judge Posner.   Then I began to think that perhaps we have a good chance to get a decision in our favor.   It was awesome to see the state's attorney squirm under questioning from the judges.  Gura never squirmed and the difference in composure between our lawyers and the states lawyers was pretty stark.   Well, just a day or two more of waiting, and we'll have our answer !



My prediction is that we will win.  I think the judges have real reservations about ruling the way they must, but I think they're boxed in and their options are somewhat limited by Heller, McDonald, Wollard, Ezell, and the fact that Illinois is such an outlier as the last state to ban the "bear" part of the Second Amendment.

[Blackhawk067]

Howard Roark, on 06 August 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

It was pretty cool to attend the Moore/Shepard oral arguments at the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals a few months ago.   It was the first time I've been in court for one of those proceedings.   As I'm waiting along with all of you for the court to publish it's opinion and judgement, I'm thinking back to my impressions and thoughts while the oral arguments were being presented.   Alan Gura and David Segale were on the left side of the court room and the state's attorneys were on the right, from the perspective of the audience.   When Alan Gura made his presentation and points of argument, the judges really pressured him to "compromise" to the idea that certain place restrictions were good policy and acceptable.   Alan held his ground and made his point that the court proceeding was about the question of the constitutionality of a total ban on bearing arms in Illinois, not about certain restrictions about place or time. My thoughts during that phase of the proceeding were that the judges were quite against recognizing a right to bear arms under the Second Amendment.  Those thoughts were erased when the states lawyer's turn came and he was really hammered down by the judges, particularly by Judge Posner.   Then I began to think that perhaps we have a good chance to get a decision in our favor.   It was awesome to see the state's attorney squirm under questioning from the judges.  Gura never squirmed and the difference in composure between our lawyers and the states lawyers was pretty stark.   Well, just a day or two more of waiting, and we'll have our answer !



My prediction is that we will win.  I think the judges have real reservations about ruling the way they must, but I think they're boxed in and their options are somewhat limited by Heller, McDonald, Wollard, Ezell, and the fact that Illinois is such an outlier as the last state to ban the "bear" part of the Second Amendment.

I still think Gura should have conceded that point and moved on, but it is what it is. I just feel he wasted half his time up there on a non-issue. Most states don't allow concealed weapons in bars.

[boog]

My prediction is that we will win. I think the judges have real reservations about ruling the way they must, but I think they're boxed in and their options are somewhat limited by Heller, McDonald, Wollard, Ezell, and the fact that Illinois is such an outlier as the last state to ban the "bear" part of the Second Amendment.
Howard, do you have a prediction when we will get a decision?
Boog

[Howard Roark]

Boog, from what I've read, we will probably get a decision by sometime on Wednesday, August 8. I really hope the court does what they're supposed to. If they run away from their responsibility of rendering a judgement and say they can't judge without more guidance from the Supreme Court, like that court in Maryland did, I'll be very disappointed. How can a federal judge run away from their responsibility? I thought that was a pathetic dereliction of duty (in Maryland). Judges should say "yes" or "no", not "I don't know". Sheesh !

[boog]

Howard, I totally agree
Boog

[colt-45]

+1

[C0untZer0]

Quote

I still think Gura should have conceded that point and moved on, but it is what it is. I just feel he wasted half his time up there on a non-issue

I agree.

I think he should have said something to the effect of "that's not at issue here - what is at issue is that Illinois has an outright ban."  But if Posner pressed him, he should have just conceded it... maybe he was afraid that the people at GOA would hate him for blaspheming...

[willxjcherokee]

If it doesn't come tomorrow I will probably have a heart attack lol

[C0untZer0]

I don't expect it till the 8th

[Molly B.]

C0untZer0, on 06 August 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Quote

I still think Gura should have conceded that point and moved on, but it is what it is. I just feel he wasted half his time up there on a non-issue

I agree.

I think he should have said something to the effect of "that's not at issue here - what is at issue is that Illinois has an outright ban."  But if Posner pressed him, he should have just conceded it... maybe he was afraid that the people at GOA would hate him for blaspheming...

Gura was right not to concede.  If anything he might have made a comment about not all customers in a bar are drinking -  but I believe had he conceded, the judge would have moved on to the next concession on his list.

[TyGuy]

Nothing as of 12:26am

[whosawmike]

I feel like what Gura was getting at was, "what defines a bar?" Restaurants like Chillis, applebees and old chicago have bars in them, but are not usually thought of as bars. I think if he would have been able to continue, it would have been more clear. Unfortunately, it took him too long to get to the point.

[Blackhawk067]

Molly B., on 06 August 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

C0untZer0, on 06 August 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Quote

I still think Gura should have conceded that point and moved on, but it is what it is. I just feel he wasted half his time up there on a non-issue

I agree.

I think he should have said something to the effect of "that's not at issue here - what is at issue is that Illinois has an outright ban."  But if Posner pressed him, he should have just conceded it... maybe he was afraid that the people at GOA would hate him for blaspheming...

Gura was right not to concede.  If anything he might have made a comment about not all customers in a bar are drinking -  but I believe had he conceded, the judge would have moved on to the next concession on his list.

I think he made a good point about people not drinking in liquor stores and them being places of frequent robberies, but the rest was an argument over semantics that I just think wasted time, but you could be right....the judge may have went on to ask about parks, theaters, stadiums, and other gun free zones, thereby wasting our time anyway. Who knows. I just, again, saw it as a waste of time that could have been better spent on other areas.

[bmyers]

Well, 6:45 and nothing yet. I was suprised by the guys talking about at work this morning. Guess there is a whole lot of people waiting to see what happens.

[Bud]

bmyers, on 07 August 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

Well, 6:45 and nothing yet. I was suprised by the guys talking about at work this morning. Guess there is a whole lot of people waiting to see what happens.

except for the print and televised main stream media.

There is a total absence of reporting coming from any of the Chicago stations or newspapers

[lockman]

Typically most of the decisions are released just after 9:00 AM.

[Mr. Fife]

According to the calendar they will still  be hearing arguments in other cases on Wednesday, so that doesn't mean the decision will come on Wednesday. It's possible that the decision can come at the time of the decisions for these last cases. In other words, Wednesday's cases may not be decided same day, and our decision still may be the last one.

[C0untZer0]

Judge Williams seemed confused between bars (taverns) and liquor stores.

I thought it would have been a great time to point out the inherent unfairness of allowing a jewelry store owner to protect herself, but deny that right to a liquor store owner.

But I'm not sure it's germane anyway... are the "bar" restrictions normally applied to package liquor stores ???  I think it was just confusion on the judges part, maybe not...

I still think Gura should have conceded on the arguing point with Posner...  whether Posner "wins" that argument or not doesn't decide the case, it's not like bargaining with a legislator.   What is at issue is whether Illinois UUW law is constitutional or not, if it's not - it needs to go back to the drawing board, just like Chicago's law in the Gowder case.  Posner can't write laws from the bench, stricken some sections of the UUW law and create new ones...

IMO, Gura could have made a lot of good points with the time that was wasted on arguing about bars and liquor stores. But I think Gura is great, he's done a great job with the case.  Logically, the State has a losing case... it bothers me that Myerscough twisted the interpretation of the law to such an extreme... what a really poor judge she is.  I don't say a judge is bad just because I disagree with their decision.  I didn't like Chief Justice John G. Roberts decision on the health care bill, but I understood it, and I can see how the ruling is pausable.  What Myerscough did was inexplicable.  There was no logic to it, it boiled down to "The person who appointed me doesn't want to see guns carried in Illinois - so I'll rule against the plaintiff and punt it to the higher courts"  She's a horrible judge.

[TyGuy]

9:50 am and only one decision released so far......

[boog]

I HATE waiting
Boog

[output]

I can't concentrate on my work right now because I can't stop hitting the refresh button

Edited by output, 07 August 2012 - 08:55 AM.

[mikew]