40 replies to this topic

[laststate2havecarry]

Its was a nice thought to push for things legislatively in Illinois, but ultimately that was a waste of time.  The Gov, Madigan and the Attorney General will do whatever it takes to thwart CCW in Illinois, as long as they are in the postions they are in.  Until SCOTUS orders Illinois to have some legal form of "bearing arms", it aint gonna happen.  Perhaps not even after SCOTUS, as CCW will be May issue, if we like you, if you can come up with a reason, if you have 5,000.00 bucks and 3 months to complete the training.  I can see that playing out for sure.  The 7th will punt the ball just like they did in McDonald.  Until we dump the Gov in 2014, Illinois will remain the people's republic of Illinois.  It will be 2014 before SCOTUS does anything with this, so get used to it folks. If we are lucky the 5 that gave us McDonald and Heller will still be there.  Illinois...the best at being last!

[snubjob]

laststate2havecarry, on 31 May 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Its was a nice thought to push for things legislatively in Illinois, but ultimately that was a waste of time.  The Gov, Madigan and the Attorney General will do whatever it takes to thwart CCW in Illinois, as long as they are in the postions they are in.  Until SCOTUS orders Illinois to have some legal form of "bearing arms", it aint gonna happen.  Perhaps not even after SCOTUS, as CCW will be May issue, if we like you, if you can come up with a reason, if you have 5,000.00 bucks and 3 months to complete the training.  I can see that playing out for sure.  The 7th will punt the ball just like they did in McDonald.  Until we dump the Gov in 2014, Illinois will remain the people's republic of Illinois.  It will be 2014 before SCOTUS does anything with this, so get used to it folks. If we are lucky the 5 that gave us McDonald and Heller will still be there.  Illinois...the best at being last!

How sad, but so true.

[Bud]

nah...................

concealed carry will be the law of the land in Illinois this year

[Drylok]

Bud for gawds sake give it a rest this is going to scotus

[3ddiver]

I am no fan of baseball but know enough to know the Cubs arent winning a world series any time soon but I am guessing they get the championship before we get legal concealed carry of a loaded firearm in Illinois. I know there are a lot of people working very hard on it and I thank them for that. I do what I can but it is nothing compared to Molly and Todd and several others. I am not giving up but it is getting to be the same old thing every year. We are close, we can pass it next year. We are going to have to vote the Democrats out of power to get it. The courts arent going to give it to us until it goes to the Supreme Court and maybe not even there.

[JackTripper]

Drylok, on 31 May 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Bud for gawds sake give it a rest

Does feel like salt in the wound at this point.

[Drylok]

That's why I was getting so pissed at him for saying it. It was giving false hope

[lockman]

Drylok, on 31 May 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Bud for gawds sake give it a rest this is going to scotus

If the 7th grants the injunction then carry comes to the last state as early as August. I would hope the 7th uses some of the reasoning they used in Ezell to come to the conclusion that a total ban on bearing arms in public places is not a reasonable restriction of sensative places but a functional ban.

[GarandFan]

laststate2havecarry, on 31 May 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Its was a nice thought to push for things legislatively in Illinois, but ultimately that was a waste of time.

Just to be clear, what you really mean is that you think it was a waste of other people's time?

[lockman]

Bearing should be on equal footing with keeping; "keeping and bearing".

[Davey]

Looking forward to June 8th.

[Drylok]

Lock, the whole damn thing is rigged, The 7rh is made up of 15 judges and 4 of them were appointed by either obama or clinton. The rest of them were apointed by gw, ghw or reagan. Let's see which 3 judges get "drawn" to hear the case next friday. This is going to scotus because they need to make an opinion on the outside the home part and they have to that because they screwed it up in heller and mcdonald.
I mean cheese and aged rice how hard does this have to be? If the right to keep arms is an individual, fundamental right then isn't the right to bear arms just as much?
But they didn't specifically address that because the court is only 5-4. We'll get another "land mark" decision that is just as watered down as the last two and it will continue to happen until the court is 6-3 or 7-2 which will never happen because obama is going to get elected by the likes of chicago residents some of which claim to be in support of right to carry and I can think of two members of this board who are examples of that kind of non sense.
Sorry for the bad spelling I'm in a hurry cause I got a baby to bath and I'm too pissed to type straight anyway

[Drylok]

GarandFan, on 31 May 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

laststate2havecarry, on 31 May 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Its was a nice thought to push for things legislatively in Illinois, but ultimately that was a waste of time.

Just to be clear, what you really mean is that you think it was a waste of other people's time?

No kidding garand and that goes for most of the people in chicago. All talk but just let a 100 lb lady from 5 hours away come up and do all the work.

[laststate2havecarry]

GarandFan, on 31 May 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

laststate2havecarry, on 31 May 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Its was a nice thought to push for things legislatively in Illinois, but ultimately that was a waste of time.

Just to be clear, what you really mean is that you think it was a waste of other people's time?

CCW is worth fighting for on all fronts, but Illinois is a different animal than other states.  Other states still have a few folks in the legislature that are still normal.  That ship sailed a long time ago in Illinois.
After living in this state for 35 years, experience has taught me that NOTHING fundamentally changes in Illinois unless it is COURT ORDERED, and even then sometimes the ruling is circumvented.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again the same way and expecting a different result.  Lets face it, IF Illinois is ever going to have CCW, it will be court ordered.  Thats all I'm saying.

[vezpa]

What really pisses me off is that some of you actually thought you would get somewhere through legislation and the bill would get called up and voted on. Did any of you TRULLY believe things would turn out any different than they did? REALLY? We have a speaker who wont let it be brought up, a governor who promises a veto and we need a super majority to get it passed. (Seeing a pattern yet?) On top of that we have every legislature in Chicago voting against it. We have Todd who has given them everything you could ask for to get this passed and they come back and ask him for 24 hours training and mandatory gun registration just to consider it. I won't even get into the whole "committee report " (as if we need a committee to discuss our second amendment rights granted to us by the USA Constitution.) What a f^&king un-needed slap in the face.

Where the hell in the above scenario did any of you think CCW would get passed legislatively, at least now? I hope to god CCW comes to Illinois but I am too smart to think a bunch of brainwashed politicians who are told what to do and how to vote will change their minds. When every representative in the Chicago area votes against any CCW bill we throw at them you know there is no "logic" in the equation anywhere and a higher power is calling the shots. Nothing we do or show them can unbrainwash them. We have killings and shooting numbers here in Chicago that rival any wartime nation and yet our legislatures turn their heads.  Instead they throw ammo and every other tax bills at us, They try to pass bills through to make us register our guns. They make flavored rolling papers illegal.  They introduce bills to make titty bars give money to rape victims? Some spend so much time trying to screw us, one must really consider why are they there and if they even have a conscience or are even human.

I pray to god that our 2 cases get to SCOTUS and they rule in our favor because I'm fairly certain we won't get any satisfaction from the lower courts. Nobody has the balls to take it on and will pass the buck until the Fab 5 in SCOTUS can hopefully vote in our favor. Then we can sit back and see how Chicago/Cook once again circumvent the constitution and somehow manage to figure a way to F%^k us again. Maybe after Obama is re-elected "which he certainly will be, might as well get over that one now too," he can put a few more Cronies on the Supreme court and give Ginsberg the opportunity to re-open any 2nd amendment victory we had and change it.

I like almost everyone here on Illinoiscarry and I share the same desires and hopes for the 2nd ammendment in this state. I like coming on and sharing stories and talking guns. I just hate seeing you all getting hyped up and being constantly let down by actually thinking somehow things would turn out differently. The same thing has been going on for years only now we get even closer to our goal before having it ripped away. Its like watching the Cubs or Bears play. They keep you entertained to the very end, yet leave you utterly disappointed. Get it in your heads to expect the worst and hope for the best. I'm at the point where I can only laugh at this **** now and realize there is no need to get my panties in a bunch.

As far as our current CCW bills go I would like to see them pitched and we start fresh when we have a new governor (hopefully it won't be Lisa Madigan) and some new faces in Springfield . Put whatever we want in them because no matter what they contain they will still be voted on the same. Its Yes or No to CCW . Forget that anything else is in there, I honestly think it doesn't matter.

I'm in the fight, I attend meetings, donate and talk up CCW to everyone I can. My family and friends will be the first to tell you they are sick of me talking about gun rights. I APPRECIATE the hard work and effort that all of you do especially Todd and Molly but I think it's time to toss in the towel for a little bit and sit back, grab a cold one and wait for the courts to slug it out. I hate to see the work of you go in vain. No sense even bringing it back up for a vote until we have a new governor or new faces in Springfield. If the NRA wants to really help they should be providing an army of security for our Fab 5 sitting on SCOTUS making sure nothing happens to them

Edited by vezpa, 31 May 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[Gray Peterson]

vezpa, on 31 May 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

What really pisses me off is that some of you actually thought you would get somewhere through legislation and the bill would get called up and voted on. Did any of you TRULLY believe things would turn out any different than they did? REALLY? We have a speaker who wont let it be brought up, a governor who promises a veto and we need a super majority to get it passed. (Seeing a pattern yet?) On top of that we have every legislature in Chicago voting against it. We have Todd who has given them everything you could ask for to get this passed and they come back and ask him for 24 hours training and mandatory gun registration just to consider it. I won't even get into the whole "committee report " (as if we need a committee to discuss our second amendment rights granted to us by the USA Constitution. What a f^&king un-needed slap in the face.

Where the hell in the above scenario did any of you think CCW would get passed legislatively, at least now? I hope to god CCW comes to Illinois but I am too smart to think a bunch of brainwashed politicians who are told what to do and how to vote will change their minds. When every representative in the Chicago area votes against any CCW bill we throw at them you know there is no "logic" in the equation anywhere and a higher power is calling the shots. Nothing we do or show them can unbrainwash them. We have killings and shooting numbers here in Chicago that rival any wartime nation and yet our legislatures turn their heads.

I pray to god that our 2 cases get to SCOTUS and they rule in our favor because I'm fairly certain we won't get any satisfaction from the lower courts. Nobody has the balls to take it on and will pass the buck until the Fab 5 in SCOTUS can hopefully vote in our favor. Then we can sit back and see how Chicago/Cook once again circumvent the constitution and somehow manage to figure a way to F%^k us again. Maybe after Obama is re-elected "which he certainly will be, might as well get over that one now too," he can put a few more Cronies on the Supreme court and give Ginsberg the opportunity to re-open any 2nd amendment victory we had and change it.

I like almost everyone here on Illinoiscarry and I share the same desires and hopes for the 2nd ammendment in this state. I like coming on and sharing stories and talking guns. I just hate seeing you all getting hyped up and being and being constantly let down by actually thinking somehow things would turn out differently. The same thing has been going on for years only now we get even closer to our goal before having it ripped away. Its like watching the Cubs or Bears play. They keep you entertained to the very end, yet leave you utterly disappointed. Get it in your heads to expect the worst and hope for the best. I'm at the point where I can only laugh at this **** now and realize there is no need to get my panties in a bunch.

As far as our current CCW bills go I would like to see them pitched and we start fresh when we have a new governor (hopefully it won't be Lisa Madigan) and some new faces in Springfield . Put whatever we want in them because no matter what they contain they will still be voted on the same. Its Yes or No to CCW . Forget that anything else is in there, I honestly think it doesn't matter.

I'm in the fight, I attend meetings, donate and talk up CCW to everyone I can. My family and friends will be the first to tell you they are sick of me talking about gun rights. I APPRECIATE the hard work and effort that all of you do especially Todd and Molly but I think it's time to toss in the towel for a little bit and sit back, grab a cold one and wait for the courts to slug it out. I hate to see the work of you go in vain. No sense even bringing it back up for a vote until we have a new governor or new faces in Springfield. If the NRA wants to really help they should be providing an army of security for our Fab 5 sitting on SCOTUS making sure nothing happens to them

If we win in the 7th Circuit or SCOTUS for what we asked for in the district court, you would only need a FOID ($10 for 10 years, no training required) to carry.

All of the carry bans passed at the local level are essentially carbon copies of the state ban, or they ban concealed carry on foot but ban all carry in vehicles except for unloaded/encased. A win at the 7th Circuit, or SCOTUS, will strip the law enforcement officers of their qualified immunity if they attempt to enforce the city bans on FOID card holders.

I've pointed out repeatedly that total bans on carry by the cities and other home rule places are not defensible and would cause a loss of qualified immunity for any law enforcement officers and supervisors involved in an arrest using a city carry ban after the state carry ban is struck.  You folks are apparently not getting how cops and risk managers actually lie awake at night worrying about their qualified immunity being pierced in an Section 1983 action.

Stop spreading this talk that IL won't get carry until 2015, or suggest not putting up a bill until 2015.   Giving up is not an option. We owe Otis McDonald, Rhonda Ezell, and David & Colleen Lawson more than that, and all of the folks in between who will die without self defensive carry access.

The fact is, when a carry ruling is made by SCOTUS, that or a good 7th Circuit ruling, the advantage is with us.  We can hold out from more licensing of the right versus just sticking with FOID carry when Moore/Shepard cases win for us.

Edited by Gray Peterson, 31 May 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[drdoom]

Rights in the Constitution are NOT granted, they are confirmed by the Government, being recognized as inalienable, and God-Given. As a side note, will they allow any of the public to attend the oral arguments?

Edit:

Saw Gray's post, and to quote a wise man, 'never give up, never surrender!'

Edited by drdoom, 31 May 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[pyre400]

drdoom, on 31 May 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

'never give up, never surrender!'

NGUNS

[RECarry]

Quote

Saw Gray's post, and to quote a wise man, 'never give up, never surrender!'

Love the Mathesar quote from Galaxy Quest. Like the movie, today feels like we were let down by representatives we thought would prevail with phasers deployed.  Instead, they are revealed to be mere puppets and TV actors using battery powered flashlights as props.


Then again, Mathesar re-emerged as Sgt. Greg Parker in Flashpoint.

[TFC]

There will be no injunction issued by the 7th. It's too hot of a football for them to do so.
IF they issue any ruling it will be to order a special session of the legislature within "X" number of days to pass legislation in-line with their orders. (Yes... it's legislating from the bench.)

No Machine Democrat wants to vote for RTC, almost everyone else wants it if for no other reason than to shut us up and garner votes for themselves, and a few down-state Dems have a genuine fear of the Chicago Machine. It is they, the meek or timid that need to be voted out first. These are not times for those without spines, and this nation was not founded by their ilk. It certainly can't survive with them in positions of power.

Those who nakedly pursue power, sacrificing the constitution on the altar of their greed should be next to be handed their papers.
They're the worst kind of traitors.

[TyGuy]

7th rules against us, SCOTUS agrees to hear the case, Obama is re-elected, at least 1 pro 2A judge retires or expires, Obama appoints ANOTHER judge, and we lose the appeal 5-4.  YAY!

Ok, that's the worst case scenario, but I am still hopeful.

[Molly B.]

vezpa, on 31 May 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

. I APPRECIATE the hard work and effort that all of you do especially Todd and Molly but I think it's time to toss in the towel for a little bit and sit back, grab a cold one and wait for the courts to slug it out.

Disappointed tonight like the rest of you - but toss in the towel for a little bit?  There isn't time.  I took this evening to drown my sorrows in orange pop and a brownie.  Tomorrow I may paint around the house.  But Saturday I am the coordinator for my local rifle club's annual NRA Day youth shooting camp - lol, yeah I do other things besides edit bad language and rap the knuckles of my favorite knuckle heads - but I will spend Saturday with the kids and I will be reminded and refreshed about why we work so hard at what we do.  Our future, their future depends on it.

Rest a bit, yes. Analyze and process, yes.  Head up to hear oral arguments, I hope to. And then we continue the battle on all three fronts - King, did we get that tatooed on you yet? - the legislative front, judicial front, and election front.

Rest up my merry band of warriors, we'll be called back to the field soon enough!

[Gray Peterson]

TFC, on 31 May 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

There will be no injunction issued by the 7th. It's too hot of a football for them to do so.

The 7th cannot issue an injunction directly.  What they can do is order the district court to issue the injunction against the laws challenged, in whole or in part.

You also offer no explanation as to your belief that they will punt.  As always, it will depend on who is on the panel, and I'm not willing to handicap or prejudice an unknown panel.

Quote

IF they issue any ruling it will be to order a special session of the legislature within "X" number of days to pass legislation in-line with their orders. (Yes... it's legislating from the bench.)

The federal courts do not have the power under 42USC1983 to force a state Legislature into session.  The Legislature, and Legislators, are not "persons" under 42USC1983.   The executive, that is the Attorney General, is who is being targeted as the enforcer of the state's UUW/AUUW ban is the person being sued.

If the 3 Judge panel ordered that, Chief Judge Easterbrook would crap a brick and basically put the decision up for en banc call, immediately, before the appellate mandate could be issued.  I can say for a 100 percent certainty that this will not occur.  The 7th Circuit is quite professional and do not engage in the flights of fancy that the 9th Circuit sometimes do.

[05FLHT]

A whole lot of BGOS ITT.

I am more positive the 7th will remand with orders to issue the injunction in light of the Ezell decision. Like I said before, it would be quite the back peddling for them to give ranges 'not quite strict scrutiny' and then ignore the actual wording of the second amendment.

Right now IL is ground zero for RTC legislation. Hang on and enjoy the ride.

[mauserme]

Molly B., on 31 May 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

Disappointed tonight like the rest of you - but toss in the towel for a little bit?  There isn't time.  I took this evening to drown my sorrows in orange pop and a brownie.  Tomorrow I may paint around the house.  But Saturday I am the coordinator for my local rifle club's annual NRA Day youth shooting camp - lol, yeah I do other things besides edit bad language and rap the knuckles of my favorite knuckle heads - but I will spend Saturday with the kids and I will be reminded and refreshed about why we work so hard at what we do.  Our future, their future depends on it.

Rest a bit, yes. Analyze and process, yes.  Head up to hear oral arguments, I hope to. And then we continue the battle on all three fronts - King, did we get that tatooed on you yet? - the legislative front, judicial front, and election front.

Rest up my merry band of warriors, we'll be called back to the field soon enough!

Molly, even though that other project you tasked me with has been on the back burner for a few weeks you know it's not forgotten.  I'm going to catch up on a few things, especially sleep, and try to send you draft in the next week or so.  No rush - just want to make sure it will be ready when you are.

Edited by mauserme, 01 June 2012 - 06:21 AM.

[output]

I don't agree with tossing in the towel either. Progress has been made. We are much closer to getting CC then we have ever been. We haven't won “yet” but let us not forget our accomplishments so far, and let’s definitely not give up any ground at all...especially after our side has put in so much hard work.

It’s okay to be angry or upset but do not give up. Sometimes I wish there was more that I could do to help the cause (and there is) maybe each of us should be asking ourselves. What else can “I” do? I don’t know about any of you…but I didn’t make it out to any of the town hall meetings in Chicago and I REALLY wanted to. I didn’t go around hanging flyers either. I called and emailed my reps, submitted electronic witness slips, donated extra money when I could…but I could have done more. Could you have?

The truth is that we are vastly outnumbered. For every dollar we spend trying to protect and defend our rights there is another dollar (if not more) being spend by the anti’s to destroy them. Gun owners are not the majority. We have to keep pushing…

Most of my friends and family members enjoy some form of shooting sport or firearm ownership. I have an uncle that loves shooting shotgun sports but does not think people need or should own pistols. I have another uncle that is an avid rifle shooter but hates “black rifles.” Until a few years ago I had absolutely no idea there was such a divide between gun owners. We have been brainwashed and plotted against each other for years and look where it’s gotten us. It’s time to educate and inform the people around us. I think we all have a little more work to do.

I will stop rambling now.

Edited by output, 01 June 2012 - 06:43 AM.

[RandyP]

Sincere thanks and appreciation to all who worked so hard in the ongoing struggle to get Illinois to recognize the US Constitution. The posts over the last couple of days exactly mirror the posts from last year at this same time when the results were similar.

Sisyphus would be proud.

[drdoom]

So if we get an injunction, why bother adding yet ANOTHER layer of licensing (aka, passing 148, 5745 et al such bills?) The people who would benefit the most from an injunction, live in Chicago. I don't like the FOID, but i'd rather have to contend with that, than renewing two separate licenses every so often.

[abolt243]

Gray Peterson, on 31 May 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

  You folks are apparently not getting how cops and risk managers actually lie awake at night worrying about their qualified immunity being pierced in an Section 1983 action.

OK, you finally convinced me to look up "qualified immunity".  

In my words, it gives a public official or law enforcement officer immunity from prosecution for violating a person''s constitutional right as long as that official/officer is operating within clearly established law.  But, when that law is declared to be unconstitutional in the courts, as the 7th or SCOTUS may do, THEN those officials/officers ARE liable and can be taken to court for violating civil rights.

Is that about it??

Tim

[mauserme]

abolt243, on 01 June 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Gray Peterson, on 31 May 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

  You folks are apparently not getting how cops and risk managers actually lie awake at night worrying about their qualified immunity being pierced in an Section 1983 action.

OK, you finally convinced me to look up "qualified immunity".  

In my words, it gives a public official or law enforcement officer immunity from prosecution for violating a person''s constitutional right as long as that official/officer is operating within clearly established law.  But, when that law is declared to be unconstitutional in the courts, as the 7th or SCOTUS may do, THEN those officials/officers ARE liable and can be taken to court for violating civil rights.

Is that about it??

Tim

Just wanted to add that, as I understand things, those individuals' personal assets would then be at risk.  It would no longer be about imposing a remedy on the state.