31 replies to this topic

[phillster]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone new what the law is concerning someone who doesn't have a FOID buying a firearm for someone who does have a FOID.

It will be an online purchase shipped to a FFL dealer.  

Thank you.

[Bud]

phillster, on 13 April 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone new what the law is concerning someone who doesn't have a FOID buying a firearm for someone who does have a FOID.

It will be an online purchase shipped to a FFL dealer.  

Thank you.

If it is in Illinois, it is illegal for a non FOID resident to purchase a firearm in any circumstance. The FFL cannot transfer a firearm  to a non FOID resident

[Tvandermyde]

Its called a straw.

Unless do e under some very situational specific circumstances

Say your dad lives in colorado. Wants to buy you a 1911 for your birthday. He pays for the gun and has the dealer ship it to a  dealer in illinois where you do a 4473, wait and pick up the gun. That might pass the smell test.  You are better off having them just give you the cash and buying it here your self.

Now if there is a deal on a gun coming from a private party, that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms

[lieut89]

I was able to pay with my credit card for my son's shotgun at Cabela's (Hammond), even though he had filled out the 4473. We were both present for the purchase, however I did not have to show my FOID while my son did. It was his graduation gift.

[kurt555gs]

Maybe we need a priority shift. FOID should go away.

[GarandFan]

phillster, on 13 April 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone new what the law is concerning someone who doesn't have a FOID buying a firearm for someone who does have a FOID.

It will be an online purchase shipped to a FFL dealer.  

Thank you.

I thought that a straw purchase was purchase of a firearm from a dealer by a non-prohibited person, for the immediate purpose of transference to someone (whether they are qualified or not).  In this case, there is no unlawful transference ... the person who paid for the online sale isn't involved in the transference ... transferee is the end user who will (fill out the 4473, possess the FOID, etc.).

To me this seems perfectly lawful.

[fubarud]

Well, since the entire idea of FOID is illegal and unconstitutional, should we really be going out of our way to abide by it?

[Bud]

fubarud, on 14 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Well, since the entire idea of FOID is illegal and unconstitutional, should we really be going out of our way to abide by it?

only if you want to buy guns or ammo in Illinois

[es503IL]

fubarud, on 14 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Well, since the entire idea of FOID is illegal and unconstitutional, should we really be going out of our way to abide by it?

Theres a saying, "Do whatever you think your wallet can take". Like it or not, the FOID card is part of the ILCS. You can always choose to ignore it, but if you do, and get arrested/charged, don't come crying about it on here.

You might get lucky and get a good lawyer, good judge, and good jury. However, it is also possible that you don't, and you goto jail.

[Gary]

es503IL, on 14 April 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

fubarud, on 14 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Well, since the entire idea of FOID is illegal and unconstitutional, should we really be going out of our way to abide by it?

Theres a saying, "Do whatever you think your wallet can take". Like it or not, the FOID card is part of the ILCS. You can always choose to ignore it, but if you do, and get arrested/charged, don't come crying about it on here.

You might get lucky and get a good lawyer, good judge, and good jury. However, it is also possible that you don't, and you goto jail.

I still think that the FOID could be our friend and be something of a defacto path to carry (of sorts).  We need to work on reducing penalties for FOID card holders.  Still illegal?  Yes!!  But the felony trip is a hard one.

[Xwing]

fubarud, on 14 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Well, since the entire idea of FOID is illegal and unconstitutional, should we really be going out of our way to abide by it?

If you don't want to be charged with a crime, possibly loose your freedom and future 2a rights...

No-one here is saying that the FOID is right or constitutional.  However, for now, it remains the law of the land.  The prudent action is to continue to follow the law while trying to get it changed (through the courts, the legislature, etc...)

[05FLHT]

kurt555gs, on 14 April 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Maybe we need a priority shift. FOID should go away.

I'll take the FOID as a carry permit. If I can buy it, I can carry it. With the ILGA holding off on passing a carry bill and the court cases percolating up, it looks like that is the direction we are heading anyway.

If a Permanent Injunction is granted, why the heck would I agree to wait a year and then have to jump through the hoops that 148 and 245 propose.

Back on topic, after reading the first post, the first thing that popped in my head was straw purchase. It's a grey area I would want no pat of. Gift the money, not the firearm.

[F12Mahon]

My wife doesn't have a foid. She bought me a shotgun for Christmas one year and put it on layaway. I had to pick it up and take posessoin with her in attendance. Sadly, a gust of wind blew it out the window as I was going across a bridge.

Eugene

[Bud]

F12Mahon, on 14 April 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

My wife doesn't have a foid. She bought me a shotgun for Christmas one year and put it on layaway. I had to pick it up and take posessoin with her in attendance. Sadly, a gust of wind blew it out the window as I was going across a bridge.

Eugene

SEE??????

I am not the only one. All my guns were lost while I was navigating my Sea Eagle 12 foot inflatable boat over the Mariana Trench is the western Pacific. I was able to mark the location though:


[attachment=8038:Bud's Guns copy.jpg]

[JackTripper]

Bud, on 14 April 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

F12Mahon, on 14 April 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

My wife doesn't have a foid. She bought me a shotgun for Christmas one year and put it on layaway. I had to pick it up and take posessoin with her in attendance. Sadly, a gust of wind blew it out the window as I was going across a bridge.

Eugene

SEE??????

I am not the only one. All my guns were lost while I was navigating my Sea Eagle 12 foot inflatable boat over the Mariana Trench is the western Pacific. I was able to mark the location though:


[attachment=8038:Bud's Guns copy.jpg]

Perhaps James Cameron will find them...

[DoYouFeelLucky]

A resident of a state bordering IL can buy long guns in IL, the FFL must still honor the IL waiting period.  I bought a couple of guns from GAT when I was still an IA resident.  I'm not sure that this is widely publicized, however GAT called it in to the ISP who confirmed they could make the sale.

I have bought a couple of guns online and had them shipped to an FFL in IA, who made the transfer as an IL resident can purchase a long gun in IA.  The FFL just honored the IL waiting period.

Edited by DoYouFeelLucky, 14 April 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[JR1987]

The only way I think it could ever work was to buy it in your name, then sell it to your friend. A private sale.

I sold one of my stripped AR lowers to a friend. I bought it for a future build and just had it stored away. A friend of mine was getting into shooting and wanted to build one. But he didn't have his FOID. I told him we had to wait for his FOID before I could sell him anything.

Once he got it 24 hours later I sold it to him.

If you're a non FOID holder you can't buy anything in IL anyway...?

[abolt243]

JR1987, on 16 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

The only way I think it could ever work was to buy it in your name, then sell it to your friend. A private sale.

I sold one of my stripped AR lowers to a friend. I bought it for a future build and just had it stored away. A friend of mine was getting into shooting and wanted to build one. But he didn't have his FOID. I told him we had to wait for his FOID before I could sell him anything.

Once he got it 24 hours later I sold it to him.

If you're a non FOID holder you can't buy anything in IL anyway...?

As long as the person on the 4473 is NOT a PROHIBITED person, it makes no difference where the money comes from!  As GF said, a straw purchase is when a legal purchaser buys a gun and puts his name on the 4473 and undergoes the NICS check with the express intent to later transfer that firearm to a PROHIBITED (not legal) person.  

In the OP, the gun will be shipped to an FFL and delivered to a FOID holder.  The FOID holder will fill out the 4473 and undergo the background check.  The FOID holder will take possession of the firearm.  

If the FOID holder were to then give the gun to the NON-FOID holder, THEN if would be a straw purchase.  But as long as the FOID holder retains possession of the gun, it makes no difference where the money comes from.

AB

[Jeff Johnson]

[/quote]
I still think that the FOID could be our friend and be something of a defacto path to carry (of sorts).  We need to work on reducing penalties for FOID card holders.  Still illegal?  Yes!!  But the felony trip is a hard one.
[/quote]
The FOID has been around since 1968 and doesn't done a damn thing for us yet except inconvenience us and make criminals out of some folks that had no criminal intent.

[moparcardave]

Exactly Jeff, the FOID is not a friend, it puts a bullseye on your forehead as a gun owner.  It has done NOTHING to prevent crime in the state Illinois.  What it does is single out law abiding gun owners.  Not my words, the words of my WWII Vet Dad in 1968. He was very angry when this went though, he was of the generation that brought back weapons of war, souvineers, his was a Luger he took off a German. In my generation, Vietnam there were still ways to get weapons  back home and easy.  In fact in 1967 a friend was serving and wanted his 357, so we boxed it up and mailed it to him.  I as a teen carried openly walked the tracks to town and bought ammo with my piston in my belt, nothing said.


Enter 1968 and this crap.  A defacto way to conceal carry?  Exactly the opposite, it's a defacto way to confescation, it's a way to take away the right endowed by our creator, spoken in the words of 2nd amendment.   When I crossed the state line, my FOID became a thing of the past, tossed, like getting rid of a pair of handcuffs.  Life is much easier without that tag on you stating, hey he as gungs.  Once again Illinois politics makes it a state that is against gungs.  Most other states have nothing of the kind, if not all.  It's saying citizens in Illinois aren't trusted unless the State Police know about it, and they want to you to run or upchuck to protect yourself.



There is a free land outside of Illinois and well, when someone sides with having a foid card as a way to get ccw, exactly the opposite is true.  I go back to my Dad's statement and back to the pictures we took by the barn so this WWII combat vet could be allowed to have his guns.

[moparcardave]

it's guns not gungs, my fingers mess up when I get tee'd off at the way Illinois does things.

[JR1987]

abolt243, on 16 April 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

JR1987, on 16 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

The only way I think it could ever work was to buy it in your name, then sell it to your friend. A private sale.

I sold one of my stripped AR lowers to a friend. I bought it for a future build and just had it stored away. A friend of mine was getting into shooting and wanted to build one. But he didn't have his FOID. I told him we had to wait for his FOID before I could sell him anything.

Once he got it 24 hours later I sold it to him.

If you're a non FOID holder you can't buy anything in IL anyway...?

As long as the person on the 4473 is NOT a PROHIBITED person, it makes no difference where the money comes from!  As GF said, a straw purchase is when a legal purchaser buys a gun and puts his name on the 4473 and undergoes the NICS check with the express intent to later transfer that firearm to a PROHIBITED (not legal) person.  

In the OP, the gun will be shipped to an FFL and delivered to a FOID holder.  The FOID holder will fill out the 4473 and undergo the background check.  The FOID holder will take possession of the firearm.  

If the FOID holder were to then give the gun to the NON-FOID holder, THEN if would be a straw purchase.  But as long as the FOID holder retains possession of the gun, it makes no difference where the money comes from.

AB

Interesting. So my uncle say in Michigan could pay for a pistol for me, order it from say Buds, and I could pick it up at the FFL and fill out the form. I didn't know that.

[abolt243]

JR1987, on 16 April 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

abolt243, on 16 April 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

JR1987, on 16 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

The only way I think it could ever work was to buy it in your name, then sell it to your friend. A private sale.

I sold one of my stripped AR lowers to a friend. I bought it for a future build and just had it stored away. A friend of mine was getting into shooting and wanted to build one. But he didn't have his FOID. I told him we had to wait for his FOID before I could sell him anything.

Once he got it 24 hours later I sold it to him.

If you're a non FOID holder you can't buy anything in IL anyway...?

As long as the person on the 4473 is NOT a PROHIBITED person, it makes no difference where the money comes from!  As GF said, a straw purchase is when a legal purchaser buys a gun and puts his name on the 4473 and undergoes the NICS check with the express intent to later transfer that firearm to a PROHIBITED (not legal) person.  

In the OP, the gun will be shipped to an FFL and delivered to a FOID holder.  The FOID holder will fill out the 4473 and undergo the background check.  The FOID holder will take possession of the firearm.  

If the FOID holder were to then give the gun to the NON-FOID holder, THEN if would be a straw purchase.  But as long as the FOID holder retains possession of the gun, it makes no difference where the money comes from.

AB

Interesting. So my uncle say in Michigan could pay for a pistol for me, order it from say Buds, and I could pick it up at the FFL and fill out the form. I didn't know that.

Technically, yes.  But, we seem to have gun stores that play the CYA game.  They make up their own much more restrictive rules as they go along to keep from stubbing their toes on one of Illinois' ambiguous laws.  They can do as they like.

AB

[GarandFan]

JR1987, on 16 April 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Interesting. So my uncle say in Michigan could pay for a pistol for me, order it from say Buds, and I could pick it up at the FFL and fill out the form. I didn't know that.

In my view, yes ... long as the FFL that you received it from in transfer is located in your state.  Also ... I think it would behoove you to make sure that Bud's and the receiving FFL are both agreeable to the transaction.  

Case in point ... last year, Alan Gura received a National Match AR as a gift from Armalite.  It was presented to him in Chicago, at the SAF's GRPC.  Of course he could not lawfully receive the firearm in Illinois, because Alan is from Virginia.  So, it was then shipped to his FFL in Virginia, where he filled out a 4473 and lawfully completed the transfer.  It didn't matter who paid for the gun or where it came from ... only that it was transferred to him lawfully via an FFL from his state (if it would have been a handgun, if would have HAD to have been received from an FFL in his state).

As an aside ... of course I think that the GCA (if it continues to exist at all) should allow for firearm transfers through FFLs regardless of the state of residence of the recipient (eg. if I can lawfully receive a handgun via an FFL transfer in Kentucky ... then what difference would it make if I received it via an FFL transfer in Florida, or Oregon, or Illinois)?

[Jeckler]

I agree that it is technically legal. However many FFLs will not complete this transaction.  They don't know your intentions.  They are afraid you intend to give the firearm to the orignal person with the money.  

This scenario isn't much different than you standing at the gun counter and someone else hands you a stack of cash to complete the purchase.  It's the same situation.  Most gun stores won't allow.

It's the beginning of a typical straw purchase.

Gift cards are a great alternative to eleviate the problem.  Store gift cards or VISA gift cards work very well.  While it's another hoop for you to jump through, it provides a layer of insulation for the FFL.  It allows them to transfer to the person who paid for the transaction.  Piece of mind for the FFL holder.

[kurt555gs]

Again. I know the powers that be are busy with concealed carry, but FOID needs to go away.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[Uncle Harley]

Often times when finding a good deal on a gun, I  or my dad will buy 2  one for each of us.    Whom ever we purchase them from  have no problems sending both  to an FFL   and  the FFL does all the necessary paperwork.   If I order and pay they both show up in my name,  If my dad does,  they show up in his.   When we get to the FFL  we just tell them one is his one is mine.  Whomever bought this round  gets to pick their choice between the two.   It  REALLY no big deal  as long as whomever takes posession of it at the FFL is not a prohibited person. By the deffinition on the 4473 it'sself  the way me and my dad do it,  both of us don't need to even fill out one  ( although we both  do unless it's a suprise gift)  because it specifically states that if I purchase it and give it to him as a gift it's perfectally legal.

[JR1987]

Yeah, lots of gun shop workers and owners are very paranoid; and I can't blame them all the time. I have run into that a lot in Illinois. It's why I've essentially stopped doing business here. Cabela's is a 30 minute drive from my house in IN.

I've heard a lot of stuff from gun shop salesman about gun laws in IL that I knew were BS. This was one of those things I didn't know though.

Garand, no one is buying me any firearms. I buy my own; just easier.

[Jason4567]

JR1987, on 16 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Yeah, lots of gun shop workers and owners are very paranoid; and I can't blame them all the time. I have run into that a lot in Illinois. It's why I've essentially stopped doing business here. Cabela's is a 30 minute drive from my house in IN.

I've heard a lot of stuff from gun shop salesman about gun laws in IL that I knew were BS. This was one of those things I didn't know though.

Garand, no one is buying me any firearms. I buy my own; just easier.

Can an Illinois resident buy firearms in Indiana? If so, how would that work?

[JR1987]

Jason4567, on 16 April 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

JR1987, on 16 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Yeah, lots of gun shop workers and owners are very paranoid; and I can't blame them all the time. I have run into that a lot in Illinois. It's why I've essentially stopped doing business here. Cabela's is a 30 minute drive from my house in IN.

I've heard a lot of stuff from gun shop salesman about gun laws in IL that I knew were BS. This was one of those things I didn't know though.

Garand, no one is buying me any firearms. I buy my own; just easier.

Can an Illinois resident buy firearms in Indiana? If so, how would that work?

Legally; yes they certainly can. You must present your FOID card though. At Cabela's they ask for it from time to time when I buy ammo. They've gotten more strict.

Does that mean they will sell a firearm to you? Depends. I've never shopped at a gun store (like a gun shop; Cabela's is not just a gun shop) out of state, other than the CMP. Cabela's would probably sell one with the FOID card. Some shop keep might think twice; being unsure of IL laws.

Just like in IL, it's a paranoia that could make people say "no thanks; I'll pass on that risk."

I don't think there are any restrictions other than the FOID for buying out of state.

Edited by JR1987, 16 April 2012 - 12:54 PM.