58 replies to this topic

[wazzle]

Romano For Rep, on 03 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

wazzle, on 03 April 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

I will agree with that, but I am talking about the incumbents who are still in office. If their constituents are educated about our cause and they start the push from within the district about the changes they want, I would expect a change. Granted, the constituents have to get involved and if the change doesn't take place, they make it very clear there will not be a re-election.

if the incumbent has no opposition.....how bad does he have to listen to his constituents?

You make a valid point, but, how, as a resident 6 hours away, do I do something about finding opposition?  I still feel we are severely limited, other than as Federal Farmer suggested, phone calls.

[es503IL]

1) Chicago does produce a great deal of tax revenue (and yes uses a lot of it as well) for the State. Including the collar counties something like 1/2 the population of Illinois lives there.

2) Arguments/attitudes such as "let’s screw Chicago/Cook County" are counterproductive. Those who are opposed to RTC would love nothing more than to start a nice little civil war within in the RTC movement.

3) While some people who are classified as "Liberal" or "Democrat" are a hurdle to the RTC movement, others have been great friends. Hell, look at the Democrats in Illinois outside of Chicago... Like Rep(s) Phelps, Reitz, all those who supported HB3500 (FOID Privacy - in opposition to the Madigan Clan), or Verschoore, just to name a few. Hell there are even members of this board who fall in those categories.

Weakness perceived is weakness assumed. This mentality would only serve to help the opposition split off votes. Hell, even though I support RTC, if I was an elected official in Chicago/Cook, and the RTC legislation excluded my constituents, I would vote against it simply because it screws my voter base. For those politicians in Chicago/Cook who are opposed to RTC, it is not going to matter a damn bit whether or not Chicago/Cook will be excluded. They will vote against it simply because it is firearm related

Edited by es503IL, 03 April 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[4thestars]

*sigh*

It sounds like such an easy solution, to cut out Cook County and Chicago.

Any bills that cut out Cook county and/or Chicago would not cut them out by name. So Champaign County would also be cut, as could ANY county after an election of an antigun or indifferent politician.

And as we all know, our silly political boundaries mean that the reps whose decisions most affect us are not always ones we get to vote against.

[wazzle]

I'll agree, there are Democrats and plenty of them who support our cause. The negative side to that argument is that every Democrat who gets re-elected, or a Democrat that replaces a Republican, just keeps Madigan and Cullerton in charge of the entire process. Phelps, and the rest of the Dems in our area do a great job, but a Republican replacement would be better.

[wazzle]

4thestars, on 03 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

*sigh*

It sounds like such an easy solution, to cut out Cook County and Chicago.

Any bills that cut out Cook county and/or Chicago would not cut them out by name. So Champaign County would also be cut, as could ANY county after an election of an antigun or indifferent politician.

And as we all know, our silly political boundaries mean that the reps whose decisions most affect us are not always ones we get to vote against.

A law recently discussed in the southern part of the state was to give counties the right to charge a fee for large gatherings of people, (Juggalos, Hog Rock, etc) to offset the cost of the local law enforcement, etc. This bill was limited to counties of a certain size or smaller. Using population numbers only, Cook could probably be eliminated without actually saying Cook County. I still don't advocate this.

[es503IL]

Lets not forget that Republican's have caused problems as well. Anyone remember Gov. Ryan (R.), or Gov. Edgar (R.) (and his relationship with MSI), or dare we even mention the Federal level Republicans who brought us the Patriot Act? I could go on about both parties, but whats the point. Both/All parties have problems.

Edited by es503IL, 03 April 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[wazzle]

es503IL, on 03 April 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Lets not forget that Republican's have caused problems as well. Anyone remember Gov. Ryan (R.), or Gov. Edgar (R.) (and his relationship with MSI), or dare we even mention the Federal level Republicans who brought us the Patriot Act? I could go on about both parties, but whats the point. Both/All parties have problems.

No argument about that, but as long as Madigan and Cullerton call the shots, we have a huge uphill battle. How do we get rid of these two guys along with the Gov.--- Elect Republicans.

[es503IL]

wazzle, on 03 April 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

es503IL, on 03 April 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Lets not forget that Republican's have caused problems as well. Anyone remember Gov. Ryan (R.), or Gov. Edgar (R.) (and his relationship with MSI), or dare we even mention the Federal level Republicans who brought us the Patriot Act? I could go on about both parties, but whats the point. Both/All parties have problems.

No argument about that, but as long as Madigan and Cullerton call the shots, we have a huge uphill battle. How do we get rid of these two guys along with the Gov.--- Elect Republicans.

Wrong... Elect honest politicians... Know where to find any???

[Kaeghl]

No argument about that, but as long as Madigan and Cullerton call the shots, we have a huge uphill battle. How do we get rid of these two guys along with the Gov.--- Elect Republicans.
[/quote]

Wrong... Elect [u]honest[/u] politicians... Know where to find any???
[/quote]


Heck, a turd wearing a hat would be better than Quinncometax.

Well, if for instance, Gov Walker from Wi should lose that recall vote here in a couple of months, think he'd care to move 70 miles, and run for gov here in Ill-annoyed? I'd vote for him in a heartbeat. Just on the chance that he'd lower taxes.

Edited by Kaeghl, 03 April 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Xwing]

Romano For Rep, on 03 April 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

"Part of the problem is unless you live in a Representative's area, they aren't going to really listen to you."  

do you think backing the political opponents of the politicians is putting pressure on those politicians?

especially in combination of their citizens being educated on the issues?

I agree with Vince. While it's true that someone in a representative's district has the most ability to help and the biggest reason to, people outside a specific district can still help! BTW, Vince is a great guy running against Lou Lang. There are options here to help him, and it behooves us all to take advantage of them!  And I’m not just talking money; there are things everyone one here can do to help.  And there are options to help others who are on our side.

Kaeghl, on 03 April 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Well, if for instance, Gov Walker from Wi should lose that recall vote here in a couple of months, think he'd care to move 70 miles, and run for gov here in Ill-annoyed? I'd vote for him in a heartbeat. Just on the chance that he'd lower taxes.

Gov Walker is awesome.  But I don't think he could get elected here in left-wing-Illinois.  I sure hope he wins his recall.  He's probably the best Governor Wisconsin has ever had.

Edited by Xwing, 03 April 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Stevepk]

Quote

Gov Walker is awesome. But I don't think he could get elected here in left-wing-Illinois. I sure hope he wins his recall. He's probably the best Governor Wisconsin has ever had.

Being a cheesehead by birth and now, as they call us north of the border, a FIB, $50 a paycheck is going to Mr Walker til the recall is over.  Heaven forbid my father finds out.

[FarmHand357]

Tvandermyde, on 03 April 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

we will make another run at RTC after the spring break.

I will be trying to get some R & R for a few days before going back to the grinder for the last 6 weeks.

there is no plan to cut out Chicago or Cook County. That does not mean that they won't try to get out of it. But we won't accept it. I and NRA took a lot of grief over that position previously when people wanted to let parts of the state opt out of RTC and we said no.

The legislative plan isn't very complicated, it is to get more votes than the other guys with the requisate number being 71 to pass. Then on to the senate.

We know who voted against us, and we need to turn at least 6 of them. Not much more complicated than that in order to keep it moving.

Todd; totally agree.  My current rep (Evans) supports RTC and is a co-sponsor of HBs 148 and 5745.  With him solidly in our corner, is there an area you, Molly, or others recommend as the best place for my limited financial contributions that will be of the most help as quickly as possible?  I should add that I've already recently sent additional funding beyond my membership to NRA, NRA-ILA, ISRA, and Illinois Carry.  Thanks.

Edited by FarmHand357, 04 April 2012 - 09:04 PM.

[Dilbert]

wazzle, on 03 April 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Dilbert, on 03 April 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

laststate2havecarry, on 02 April 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

. . . what about CCW for all counties but Cook, and then we work our way up to full blown statewide? . . .

What did we do to deserve being thrown under the bus? Why, because I live in Cook County, should I be denied my 2A rights?

You asked, and while I don't think any part of the state should be excluded.

1. Cook County is responsible for the overall majority of Democrats in the state legislature, hence, Mike Madigan and Tom Cullerton in power.
2. Cook County is also responsible for the election of Governor Quinn. (falls in #1 with too many Democrats)
3. Cook County, mostly Chicago was going to force the rest of the state to pay for the Olympics had it chose Chicago. They didn't call me and ask for my approval.
4. Gasoline tax in Illinois is mostly due to that area of the state.
5. Mayor Daley and Mayor Emmanuel,  nuff said.
6. I could probably go on and on what is wrong with that part of the state.

I agree that punishing the law abiding gun owners of Chicago isn't right. But it is up to the Chicago gun owners to turn things around in that part of the state too. The town hall meetings are definitely a step in the right direction.

I didn't make this post to start a big argument, but the question was put out there, and maybe, just maybe, some citizens of Cook County don't think of these things like the rest of the state does.

Wazzle, WADR, I am fully aware of the short-comings of the Crook County (not a typo) political system. But as I also said in my previous post I have been fighting the system for many, many years.  Your comments/post though reminds me of when I was a teenager and woke up in the morning with a big red zit on my nose. Someone would inevitably say, ”You know you have a big zit on your nose?” As if the pain and glaring beacon wasn’t embarrassing enough some genius was always there to point out the obvious. So, when you posted did you realize the questions were rhetorical? Stating the obvious does nothing to address the cause. As frustrated as you might be, we stare at the injustice every morning when we read the local paper and cringe at the political giant looming over us holding a huge club.

While many people living downstate enjoy representatives that share our passion for CC and the RTC, I regularly argue with anti gun simpletons that undoubtedly outnumber the local 2A supporters. There are almost 10 million people in the Chicagoland area, all of them are within 75 minutes of my home. Most of them believe the anti-gun propaganda that has been spewed for half a century. And in a democracy 51% of the people control the outcome. Do you have any idea whatsoever what 5 million people looks like? I feel like General Custer, surrounded and outnumbered. Please don’t state the obvious. We know what the problem is. Rattling off point after point and saying, “it is up to the Chicago gun owners to turn things around in that part of the state” is easy when you are three hundred miles away. Try entering the lion’s den and squaring off, nose to nose with a half dozen red faced liberals ready and looking for any reason to “defend themselves”. Try asking for a Republican ballot in a primary election in a Democratic precinct. You better have good insurance. And yes, union enforcers are very real and they tell you who to vote for.

I don’t have the answers. All I know is I have battled the corrupt politicians for decades. The liberals have spent the last 100 years building a political dynasty up here. There is a reason they call it “The Chicago Machine”.  In short it’s the new and improved version of Al Capone’s organization only backed by laws and sanctioned by the people and a thousand times more powerful.  

Like my father told me when I was growing up, “Speak not of what you know not.” My suggestion is contact MollyB or Todd and ask what can be done from where you are.

[wazzle]

Dilbert,   you asked what was done to throw you under the bus, I simply answered your question. You think I am stating the obvious but it is the other 99 million up there that may not know the answer to that question, nor do they care. I was raised about 30 miles from Cook County, but I got the hell out of there. I do all I can to help your (our) cause, but as you said, you are outnumbered and I can only do so much.

In the future, don't ask a question you don't want answered.

[Bud]

Regardless of anything we say or argue about concerning excluding Cok County (or any other geographical area of the State) from the RTC Bills, the NRA and the ISRA (who are leading the fight) have decided that no area will be excluded.

I personally agree with that but if the oppoisite was true (The NRA/ISRA wanted to exclude Cook County) then I would also support that because the NRA/ISRA has the means to orchestrate the fight.

If you look at all of the efforts that have been made to get a biartisan effort through the ILGA, get the approval of the various police organizations, scheduling and planning the Town Hall meetings, the favorable press and on and on, then it becomes obvious that the only way that could happen is by a cohesive effort under a identifiable leader.

If, as we claim, the right to keep and bear arms is a fundemental right, then who are we to say, "as long as i get my right restored, it doesn't matter that other Americans living in the same situation don't get their right restored".

What would that say about us as a people?

A right denied to any of us is a right denied to all of us. We need to fight and win this together because if we don't, if we decide that divided is better than united, then we are losing sight of the ultimate strength of our country and that is, "all men are created equal".

[Lou]

Tvandermyde, on 03 April 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

we will make another run at RTC after the spring break.

I will be trying to get some R & R for a few days before going back to the grinder for the last 6 weeks.

there is no plan to cut out Chicago or Cook County. That does not mean that they won't try to get out of it. But we won't accept it. I and NRA took a lot of grief over that position previously when people wanted to let parts of the state opt out of RTC and we said no.

The legislative plan isn't very complicated, it is to get more votes than the other guys with the requisate number being 71 to pass. Then on to the senate.

We know who voted against us, and we need to turn at least 6 of them. Not much more complicated than that in order to keep it moving.

If we were to exclude Crook County from a RTC bill I am firmly convinced the Chicago Machine would not vote for it anyway.  They would STILL vote NO.
All that would be accomplished is would would cave to the Chicago Machine and they would shove our noses in it anyway.

JMHO

[ming]

Lou, on 04 April 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Tvandermyde, on 03 April 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

we will make another run at RTC after the spring break.

I will be trying to get some R & R for a few days before going back to the grinder for the last 6 weeks.

there is no plan to cut out Chicago or Cook County. That does not mean that they won't try to get out of it. But we won't accept it. I and NRA took a lot of grief over that position previously when people wanted to let parts of the state opt out of RTC and we said no.

The legislative plan isn't very complicated, it is to get more votes than the other guys with the requisate number being 71 to pass. Then on to the senate.

We know who voted against us, and we need to turn at least 6 of them. Not much more complicated than that in order to keep it moving.

If we were to exclude Crook County from a RTC bill I am firmly convinced the Chicago Machine would not vote for it anyway.  They would STILL vote NO.
All that would be accomplished is would would cave to the Chicago Machine and they would shove our noses in it anyway.

JMHO

I agree.  What reason would they have for voting yes?  The antis don't want it anywhere.

[Jeckler]

Lou, on 04 April 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Tvandermyde, on 03 April 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

we will make another run at RTC after the spring break.

I will be trying to get some R & R for a few days before going back to the grinder for the last 6 weeks.

there is no plan to cut out Chicago or Cook County. That does not mean that they won't try to get out of it. But we won't accept it. I and NRA took a lot of grief over that position previously when people wanted to let parts of the state opt out of RTC and we said no.

The legislative plan isn't very complicated, it is to get more votes than the other guys with the requisate number being 71 to pass. Then on to the senate.

We know who voted against us, and we need to turn at least 6 of them. Not much more complicated than that in order to keep it moving.

If we were to exclude Crook County from a RTC bill I am firmly convinced the Chicago Machine would not vote for it anyway.  They would STILL vote NO.
All that would be accomplished is would would cave to the Chicago Machine and they would shove our noses in it anyway.

JMHO

That's a great obersrvation...The folks who represent Chicago will still vote NO.

[Jason4567]

wazzle, on 04 April 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Dilbert,   you asked what was done to throw you under the bus, I simply answered your question. You think I am stating the obvious but it is the other 99 million up there that may not know the answer to that question, nor do they care. I was raised about 30 miles from Cook County, but I got the hell out of there. I do all I can to help your (our) cause, but as you said, you are outnumbered and I can only do so much.

In the future, don't ask a question you don't want answered.

It seemed to me he was asking why he should be thrown under the bus, not what you don't like about Chicago, so you didn't really answer the question...

Bud, on 04 April 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Regardless of anything we say or argue about concerning excluding Cok County (or any other geographical area of the State) from the RTC Bills, the NRA and the ISRA (who are leading the fight) have decided that no area will be excluded.

I personally agree with that but if the oppoisite was true (The NRA/ISRA wanted to exclude Cook County) then I would also support that because the NRA/ISRA has the means to orchestrate the fight.

If you look at all of the efforts that have been made to get a biartisan effort through the ILGA, get the approval of the various police organizations, scheduling and planning the Town Hall meetings, the favorable press and on and on, then it becomes obvious that the only way that could happen is by a cohesive effort under a identifiable leader.

If, as we claim, the right to keep and bear arms is a fundemental right, then who are we to say, "as long as i get my right restored, it doesn't matter that other Americans living in the same situation don't get their right restored".

What would that say about us as a people?

A right denied to any of us is a right denied to all of us. We need to fight and win this together because if we don't, if we decide that divided is better than united, then we are losing sight of the ultimate strength of our country and that is, "all men are created equal".

Very well said!

[wazzle]

His exact words were "What did we do to deserve being thrown under the bus? Why, because I live in Cook County, should I be denied my 2A rights?


Keyword being WE.

[kurt555gs]

I think Chicago would fight just as viciously to stop any right to carry legislation that excluded them as they would for a state wide law.

* Carthago delenda est *

[drdoom]

Judging by some of the posts, I can see there are alot of people outside Cook County that are so angry at Chicago, they want to displace that anger of people living in Cook County. Being angry does not accomplish anything, our differences may be many, but everything, the time, money and effort will be wasted if we continue to stuff like this. There's a time for bickering, but that's not now. Let's win, then we can bicker on what we want to expand in this legislation

[snubjob]

kurt555gs, on 04 April 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

I think Chicago would fight just as viciously to stop any right to carry legislation that excluded them as they would for a state wide law.

* Carthago delenda est *

I respectfully disagree.

[Xwing]

kurt555gs, on 04 April 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

I think Chicago would fight just as viciously to stop any right to carry legislation that excluded them as they would for a state wide law.

* Carthago delenda est *

I'm afraid you're right.  Even if the bill stated "All Illinois except Cook County", all the Cook County Dems would vote no.  If this were different, I think it would be worth exploring (b/c any rights is better than none.

Edited by Xwing, 10 April 2012 - 08:20 AM.

[Gunslinger]

snubjob, on 09 April 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

kurt555gs, on 04 April 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

I think Chicago would fight just as viciously to stop any right to carry legislation that excluded them as they would for a state wide law.

* Carthago delenda est *

I respectfully disagree.

You think they would vote yes on something that allowed people to carry loaded hidden guns outside of the city? I think u are mistaken although I can see them thinking that would keep guns out of their city. I hope we get RTC within the next few years so my son can see the city. I haven't been there since I was a little kid with the exception of the airports and that is by choice. I'm curious to know why you think they would support an everything but crook county carry bill

[ChiShooter]

Romano For Rep, on 03 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

wazzle, on 03 April 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

I will agree with that, but I am talking about the incumbents who are still in office. If their constituents are educated about our cause and they start the push from within the district about the changes they want, I would expect a change. Granted, the constituents have to get involved and if the change doesn't take place, they make it very clear there will not be a re-election.

if the incumbent has no opposition.....how bad does he have to listen to his constituents?

I have a feeling that a lot of people outside of Cook county don't get the fact that a lot of times (especially in Chicago) these morons run completely unchallenged. So if you're against them your only choice is not voting at all. Which still gives them 100% of the votes.

[drdoom]

That and the fact that being a gun owner in Cook County, is of the don't ask don't tell nature (yes it's THAT bad!) I'm really sick of this bickering from downstaters, and people outside Cook County. Please someone close this thread, this is not productive. We're gonna win this year, and it starts by adopting a winners attitude.

[Gunslinger]

drdoom, on 10 April 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

That and the fact that being a gun owner in Cook County, is of the don't ask don't tell nature (yes it's THAT bad!) I'm really sick of this bickering from downstaters, and people outside Cook County. Please someone close this thread, this is not productive. We're gonna win this year, and it starts by adopting a winners attitude.

Not taking a side I agree with you that we need to unite. Most of the bickering I believe comes from the fact that us downstaters cannot vote in your elections and your city is the one and only obstacle to overcome before we can have our rights restored. We have done our part, we vote and nearly all of our reps are on our side, it's your city that needs to change. I don't know what else to do, I have emailed all of the no votes from your city and never got a response. If someone runs against them who is friendly to our cause then make it known on here and those who can will contribute what they can to their campaign. Until then we are just playing the waiting game with YOUR city, ours are fine for the most part there is nothing left for us "downstaters" to do.  Of course this is just my opinion but do have sympathy for the bickering there are many like myself who will do everything they can to stay away from chicago and even those who have never been and have no intention of going but we are still in a stranglehold because of your city.

[Drylok]

Not taking a side I agree with you that we need to unite. Most of the bickering I believe comes from the fact that us downstaters cannot vote in your elections and your city is the one and only obstacle to overcome before we can have our rights restored. We have done our part, we vote and nearly all of our reps are on our side, it's your city that needs to change. I don't know what else to do, I have emailed all of the no votes from your city and never got a response. If someone runs against them who is friendly to our cause then make it known on here and those who can will contribute what they can to their campaign. Until then we are just playing the waiting game with YOUR city, ours are fine for the most part there is nothing left for us "downstaters" to do.  Of course this is just my opinion but do have sympathy for the bickering there are many like myself who will do everything they can to stay away from chicago and even those who have never been and have no intention of going but we are still in a stranglehold because of your city.
[/quote]

That pretty much sums it up. We have picked up the support of organizations like the transit union and what was it the sergants union IN CHICAGO but the people who actually vote on the floor of the house don't care how many organizations or people support the cause so...........