23 replies to this topic

[wilessiuc]

Somebody calm my nerves, but this Trayvon Martin case has me worried. We are talking about bringing HB148 or 5745 for a vote possibly as early as April or May. I'm concerned that this shooting (and how fresh it will be in everyone's minds) will scare away some of our maybe votes. Particularly with all the "anti" rhetoric being thrown around by the media. Todd, do you think this is a problem?

[xmikex]

It IS a problem.

With more information coming out about Trayvon's history and about the actual events, hopefully the tide will turn.  It's a tragedy because Zimmerman should have just called 911 and left it at that but Zimmerman may very well have been justified in shooting Trayvon IF Zimmerman was being beaten / attacked.

Of course, people's minds are already made up.  This case simply serves to reinforce their beliefs...  Confirmation Bias


If Trayvon is eventually seen as the aggressor, the WAY out there folks will just say "he was driven to it because he was angry about being "profiled"."  When that happens, the antis will lose the support of the middle.  

[TFC]

This thing seems to be loosing momentum already now that the Obamacare debate in SCOTUS is heating up. If the solicitor general keeps looking like a fool, this should all be gone in under a week.

[Buzzard]

We managed to get past the Northern Illinois University shooting. We also managed to get past the Gabrielle Gifford and Fort Hood shootings. And we will manage to get through this shooting too. What concerns me more about the Florida shooting is that we have an organization that has put a bounty on Zimmerman's head and is not trying to hide the fact at all. In fact, it's common knowledge to most everyone. And yet, we have a president and an attorney general that apparently are quite comfortable with this development and have made no attempt to even ask that it be retracted.

[oneshot]

Buzzard, on 28 March 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

We managed to get past the Northern Illinois University shooting. We also managed to get past the Gabrielle Gifford and Fort Hood shootings. And we will manage to get through this shooting too. What concerns me more about the Florida shooting is that we have an organization that has put a bounty on Zimmerman's head and is not trying to hide the fact at all. In fact, it's common knowledge to most everyone. And yet, we have a president and an attorney general that apparently are quite comfortable with this development and have made no attempt to even ask that it be retracted.

And how.  (+1)

[Ranger]

"What concerns me more about the Florida shooting is that we have an organization that has put a bounty on Zimmerman's head and is not trying to hide the fact at all. In fact, it's common knowledge to most everyone. And yet, we have a president and an attorney general that apparently are quite comfortable with this development and have made no attempt to even ask that it be retracted."

Not only has the current president made no apparent attempt to address that issue; but he has once again fanned the flames when he should have instead encouraged everyone to wait until the process has ran its course to determine the facts rather than rush to judgement.  He has done this repeatedly.  Not only racist; but just plain stupid.

Maybe he thinks that group would be good poll watchers for the general election...

[Ranger]

It might sway some.  Hopefully, none that matter.

http://www.sj-r.com/...ith-gun-measure

[Ashdump]

10 dead and 39 wounded in one weekend in Chicago without LTC though.

[TFC]

The last nail in the Zimmerman witch-hunt coffin may have been driven.
Turns out that Spike Lee... (the most over rated movie maker in the world,)
has "Tweeted" the wrong address to his mindless followers.
The family there has been driven from their home due to death threats.
I hope they sue him for every penny he has.
http://www.cbsnews.c...ddress-retweet/
http://p.washingtont...ter-spike-lee-/

Edited by TFC, 28 March 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[milq]

TFC, on 28 March 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

The last nail in the Zimmerman witch-hunt coffin may have been driven.
Turns out that Spike Lee... (the most over rated movie maker in the world,)
has "Tweeted" the wrong address to his mindless followers.

I read about this yesterday, truly sad that these folks can't even be safe in their own home.

As for the last nail....don't bet on it. I also saw a police station video of Zimmerman being escorted from the cruiser to the PD, the video isn't the best in the world, but it doesn't show much evidence of Zimmerman's broken nose or bloody head...For all I know, it may not even be the right guy, just telling what I viewed. I failed to notice if the time stamp on the video was correct, etc.

[Buckfarrack]

milq, on 29 March 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

TFC, on 28 March 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

The last nail in the Zimmerman witch-hunt coffin may have been driven.
Turns out that Spike Lee... (the most over rated movie maker in the world,)
has "Tweeted" the wrong address to his mindless followers.

I read about this yesterday, truly sad that these folks can't even be safe in their own home.

As for the last nail....don't bet on it. I also saw a police station video of Zimmerman being escorted from the cruiser to the PD, the video isn't the best in the world, but it doesn't show much evidence of Zimmerman's broken nose or bloody head...For all I know, it may not even be the right guy, just telling what I viewed. I failed to notice if the time stamp on the video was correct, etc.

Here's that video milq.I don't see a time posted either.You,re right though,he sure doesn't appear to have a broken nose or cuts on the back of his head.He may have been treated at the scene,BUT. On a side note.....read the starbucks "ingredients" article while you are there.lol

http://www.wftv.com/...ws-georg/nLfyK/

[mstrat]

It's pretty simple really:

* Keep the focus of right to carry on what it's REALLY about: an individual freedom, because of a god-given natural right to self defense.

If one idiot unjustly kills another, that idiot can and should be convicted by a jury of his peers and sent to jail.  This has as much to do with RTC as a prison shanking with a sharpened toothbrush does to my right to clean my teeth.

There are no societal  issues at stake here.  We're not fighting to reduce crime, or any other large noble act.  One idiot's action can never affect the legitimacy of our fight to restore and preserve our individual human freedoms.

[Jeffrey]

This is one case where there could possibly be an unjustified shooting, or possibly justified.  RTC is guaranteed in our constitution, though not specifically said by SCOTUS yet.  How many examples can we mention where RTC has saved innocent lives vs. this single case?

[Danielm60660]

Much hay is being made of the "Stand your ground." More so than the "Concealed carry" part of it. I see this as a tragic event, but both of these things are wrong to focus on. In principle, I agree with both. The focus needs to be on the choices that both of these individuals made and blame needs to be distributed accordingly.
If Zimmerman hunted the kid, problem. If the kid jumped on Zimmerman after Zimmermen had dis-engaged, problem.
Let a jury figure it out. Either way, lives are ruined/ended.

[kurt555gs]

I think the Florida shooting gave the judge in Shepherd an excuse to dismiss and re-confirm that "2a is only inside the home" along with 1a, and 4a, and well most a's.

[Ashdump]

It's amazing how many people came out to do the "hoodie" protest in Chicago. All of that over a bunch of speculation and presumption. Here these folks are being denied the right to defend themselves by their government, and yet they'd rather burn all that energy on a mindless mission like this. It boggles the mind.

Where were these people when Otis needed some support back when the law said he couldn't defend himself in his home? Why aren't they fuming mad that they cannot defend themselves on the streets? Where are these folks at the town hall meetings?

[Tompo]

There's a lot of unanswered question in the Zimmerman/Martin case.  Too many people have rushed to judge, without knowing all the facts.  
Has there been any report on HOW and WHERE Martin was shot?  Was he shot standing up?  From 2 feet away?  5 feet? 10?  
At what angle was he hit?  What was the angle of the bullet when it hit Martin?  Was Martin ON TOP of Zimmerman when he got shot? or was he standing up 5 feet away?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any info on that.  It DOES make a difference. Even if Zimmmerman initially "racially profiled" Martin, when he followed him, if Martin was shot while he was on top of Zimmerman, banging his head into the sidewalk, it **COULD* be self defense.  

If Zimmerman is guilty of a crime, he should be tried in court and sent to prison, but I want to see all the facts, first.

[Buzzard]

Tompo, on 31 March 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

There's a lot of unanswered question in the Zimmerman/Martin case. Too many people have rushed to judge, without knowing all the facts.
Has there been any report on HOW and WHERE Martin was shot? Was he shot standing up? From 2 feet away? 5 feet? 10?
At what angle was he hit? What was the angle of the bullet when it hit Martin? Was Martin ON TOP of Zimmerman when he got shot? or was he standing up 5 feet away?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any info on that. It DOES make a difference. Even if Zimmmerman initially "racially profiled" Martin, when he followed him, if Martin was shot while he was on top of Zimmerman, banging his head into the sidewalk, it **COULD* be self defense.

If Zimmerman is guilty of a crime, he should be tried in court and sent to prison, but I want to see all the facts, first.

I don't know if that type of information is ever released to the public. If it is, it is never put in print or televised by the MSM. But you're certainly right, everything you mentioned would be analyzed by the authorities, and perhaps most telling of a close encounter would be gun shot residue on Martin's clothes.

Quote

My link
The further gunshot residues travel from the muzzle, the broader and less concentrated the pattern becomes. Because the various elements included in gunshot residues are very small and lack mass they lose their energy rapidly.

[Buzzard]

The Trayvon Martin shooting has been in the Rockford Register Star several times since the story broke.

Below is the latest installment, by weekly columnist Ed Wells.

======================================================================

Ed Wells: Concealed carry would lead to more Trayvon Martins

By Ed Wells SPECIAL TO RRSTAR.COM Posted Mar 29, 2012 @ 11:23 PM Last update Mar 30, 2012 @ 08:55 AM

By now most of you have heard about the curious case of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, the Florida teenager who was shot down by a neighborhood watch captain. Let me say that I am already prejudiced against the shooter, George Zimmerman. By most accounts and phone records, Zimmerman was looking for trouble on Feb. 26 when Trayvon lost his life. I hope some type of justice can be brought to the family of Trayvon, but I doubt it. The kid is dead for no good reason other than he was a young black male wearing a hoodie and walking where someone didn't want him to.

Yeah, I'm pretty mad about the Trayvon shooting, but there have been so many other questionable shootings that involve black males. In too many places in America black males are hated and feared by too many people. In America, throughout its history and up to modern-day headlines, a black man's life isn't worth much. I fear crime, but I fear more the kind of vigilantism Mr. Zimmerman and others have in regard to black males.
In the not-too-distant past in America, we reveled in vigilantism, the kind that intimidated and even lynched black men at the drop of a hat.

In those days the vigilantes' names were KKK and the Night Riders. Now it's a little bit more sophisticated. Vigilantes hide behind names like neighborhood watch and citizen patrols. But their effect is the same, and it's too often black males who take the boot when these vigilantes take charge.

With so many places and so many people fearing and hating black men, I'm scared to death about the legislation being discussed to allow "concealed carry" in Illinois. You might feel safer with concealed carry, but I sure don't. There are too many scared people, too many people who will shoot first when it comes to black males. I urge the lawmakers to really think about concealed carry and in no way pass this dangerous legislation. There are too many "Quick Draw McGraws" out there wanting to prove their manhood or womanhood, too many people who believe the defense of "I feared for my life" is good enough when you gun a black man down.

It's personal with me because I'm a black man who can feel, and has felt in the past, the fear and hate of so many in the Rock River Valley. It's personal with me because I walk in many parts of the city and I don't want some "police wannabe" stopping me and asking me anything. I respect the authority of the police, but not some hotshot vigilante. With concealed carry I fear we will have more Trayvon Martins, not fewer.

To the lawmakers, think before you act. Crime affects us all. And more access to handguns is not the answer. Trayvon is not the first black male to die in a questionable situation, and he won't be the last. But let's not make it easier for people who shouldn't have guns or authority to prey on black males whose only crime is being black and being male.

Too many places in America, too many people who hate and fear black men — please don't give them any more excuses to kill us. Strike down concealed carry; people like me will thank you.

Ed Wells of Rockford writes a weekly column for the Rockford Register Star. If you would like to comment, email opinions@rrstar.com.

[Tompo]

Buzzard, on 31 March 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Tompo, on 31 March 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

There's a lot of unanswered question in the Zimmerman/Martin case. Too many people have rushed to judge, without knowing all the facts.
Has there been any report on HOW and WHERE Martin was shot? Was he shot standing up? From 2 feet away? 5 feet? 10?
At what angle was he hit? What was the angle of the bullet when it hit Martin? Was Martin ON TOP of Zimmerman when he got shot? or was he standing up 5 feet away?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any info on that. It DOES make a difference. Even if Zimmmerman initially "racially profiled" Martin, when he followed him, if Martin was shot while he was on top of Zimmerman, banging his head into the sidewalk, it **COULD* be self defense.

If Zimmerman is guilty of a crime, he should be tried in court and sent to prison, but I want to see all the facts, first.

I don't know if that type of information is ever released to the public. If it is, it is never put in print or televised by the MSM. But you're certainly right, everything you mentioned would be analyzed by the authorities, and perhaps most telling of a close encounter would be gun shot residue on Martin's clothes.

Quote

My link
The further gunshot residues travel from the muzzle, the broader and less concentrated the pattern becomes. Because the various elements included in gunshot residues are very small and lack mass they lose their energy rapidly.

That kind of information SHOULD be released.  Knowing how/where Martin was shot, and at what angle he was hit, could determine if this was self defense--or manslaughter.  If ZImmerman shot *UP* into Martin, while on his back, that's information the public needs to know.  Or did he shoot Martin from 10 feet away, standing up?
The media isn't helping--by rushing to judgment.

I just want all the facts and evidence gathered.  If Zimmerman is guilty of a crime, he belongs in prison.  But, I'll wait to see what the DOJ/FBI investigation says....

[duckies]

Buzzard, on 31 March 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

The Trayvon Martin shooting has been in the Rockford Register Star several times since the story broke.

Below is the latest installment, by weekly columnist Ed Wells.

======================================================================

Ed Wells: Concealed carry would lead to more Trayvon Martins

By Ed Wells SPECIAL TO RRSTAR.COM Posted Mar 29, 2012 @ 11:23 PM Last update Mar 30, 2012 @ 08:55 AM

By now most of you have heard about the curious case of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, the Florida teenager who was shot down by a neighborhood watch captain. Let me say that I am already prejudiced against the shooter, George Zimmerman. By most accounts and phone records, Zimmerman was looking for trouble on Feb. 26 when Trayvon lost his life. I hope some type of justice can be brought to the family of Trayvon, but I doubt it. The kid is dead for no good reason other than he was a young black male wearing a hoodie and walking where someone didn't want him to.

Yeah, I'm pretty mad about the Trayvon shooting, but there have been so many other questionable shootings that involve black males. In too many places in America black males are hated and feared by too many people. In America, throughout its history and up to modern-day headlines, a black man's life isn't worth much. I fear crime, but I fear more the kind of vigilantism Mr. Zimmerman and others have in regard to black males.
In the not-too-distant past in America, we reveled in vigilantism, the kind that intimidated and even lynched black men at the drop of a hat.

In those days the vigilantes' names were KKK and the Night Riders. Now it's a little bit more sophisticated. Vigilantes hide behind names like neighborhood watch and citizen patrols. But their effect is the same, and it's too often black males who take the boot when these vigilantes take charge.

With so many places and so many people fearing and hating black men, I'm scared to death about the legislation being discussed to allow "concealed carry" in Illinois. You might feel safer with concealed carry, but I sure don't. There are too many scared people, too many people who will shoot first when it comes to black males. I urge the lawmakers to really think about concealed carry and in no way pass this dangerous legislation. There are too many "Quick Draw McGraws" out there wanting to prove their manhood or womanhood, too many people who believe the defense of "I feared for my life" is good enough when you gun a black man down.

It's personal with me because I'm a black man who can feel, and has felt in the past, the fear and hate of so many in the Rock River Valley. It's personal with me because I walk in many parts of the city and I don't want some "police wannabe" stopping me and asking me anything. I respect the authority of the police, but not some hotshot vigilante. With concealed carry I fear we will have more Trayvon Martins, not fewer.

To the lawmakers, think before you act. Crime affects us all. And more access to handguns is not the answer. Trayvon is not the first black male to die in a questionable situation, and he won't be the last. But let's not make it easier for people who shouldn't have guns or authority to prey on black males whose only crime is being black and being male.

Too many places in America, too many people who hate and fear black men — please don't give them any more excuses to kill us. Strike down concealed carry; people like me will thank you.

Ed Wells of Rockford writes a weekly column for the Rockford Register Star. If you would like to comment, email opinions@rrstar.com.

"It's personal with me because I walk in many parts of the city"

What city? Chicago? If he does he has obviously not set foot in the west side, humboldt park area, or the south side.

"The kid is dead for no good reason other than he was a young black male wearing a hoodie and walking where someone didn't want him to."

I hate to be Capt. Obvious, but where you there personally to witness it? Let alone the millions of hippies whos mind has been made up by the bias media such as yourself.

"Let me say that I am already prejudiced..."

So he is admitting his hypocrisy to the situation, then makes it a 2A issue by asking that CCW be struck down, why? A gun knows no race,gender,or religion. Ultimately it is not the gun but the user that is responsible for the outcome of his input. Jeez another way to demonize guns and gun owners who legally own then and abide by the law.

"But let's not make it easier for people who shouldn't have guns or authority to prey on black males whose only crime is being black and being male."

Really now? Theres already plenty of hoops to jump through for a person who can legally own a firearm. Who shouldnt have guns? so he must be talking about the drug dealers, thugs, convicted felons right? Or is he talking about the common citizenry who follow the laws or is it a racial statement?

Prey is such a strong word for me in this situation. Is he neglecting the fact that black on black, actually that crimes between two minority groups rarely reach national notoriety? That this in all sense just maybe some hoopla to raise racial tensions in an election year? That perhaps some politician(s) are exploiting this for political motives?

I love the fact the that all these politicians are jumping at the situation to gain some sort of publicity. Also didn't TM's mother sought out to trademark pictures etc.... hmmmmm.......exploiting the death of a love one to gain capital is well......a bit odd to me at least. How many murders, shootings, muggings, assaults etc make this much news? hell the st pattys day weekend shooting probably didnt even make it out illinois. so how are the lives of those victims less important than that of trayvon martin?

end rant....

just a final thought and a line from a paper im writing for a class.

-many years ago the government and politicians set out to work for the people and with the people; now it just feels as though that they want to WORK the people.

[moparcardave]

Ed Wells the man who caused a $26 million dollar lawsuit in Rockford schools.  He thought that desegration should take place so Rockford schools were foreced out the the neighborhood schools so the disadvantaged could get to the "good" schools.  Well now Rockford 20 years later has a 48% graduation rate and the schools are a disaster.  Has it done any good?  No it just spread the cancer around.  I am only saying when you mix things things will get worse not better.  Glad to be out of that town.

[stm]

Buzzard, on 31 March 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

The Trayvon Martin shooting has been in the Rockford Register Star several times since the story broke.

Below is the latest installment, by weekly columnist Ed Wells.

======================================================================

Ed Wells: Concealed carry would lead to more Trayvon Martins

By Ed Wells SPECIAL TO RRSTAR.COM Posted Mar 29, 2012 @ 11:23 PM Last update Mar 30, 2012 @ 08:55 AM

By now most of you have heard about the curious case of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, the Florida teenager who was shot down by a neighborhood watch captain. Let me say that I am already prejudiced against the shooter, George Zimmerman. By most accounts and phone records, Zimmerman was looking for trouble on Feb. 26 when Trayvon lost his life. I hope some type of justice can be brought to the family of Trayvon, but I doubt it. The kid is dead for no good reason other than he was a young black male wearing a hoodie and walking where someone didn't want him to.

Yeah, I'm pretty mad about the Trayvon shooting, but there have been so many other questionable shootings that involve black males. In too many places in America black males are hated and feared by too many people. In America, throughout its history and up to modern-day headlines, a black man's life isn't worth much. I fear crime, but I fear more the kind of vigilantism Mr. Zimmerman and others have in regard to black males.
In the not-too-distant past in America, we reveled in vigilantism, the kind that intimidated and even lynched black men at the drop of a hat.

In those days the vigilantes' names were KKK and the Night Riders. Now it's a little bit more sophisticated. Vigilantes hide behind names like neighborhood watch and citizen patrols. But their effect is the same, and it's too often black males who take the boot when these vigilantes take charge.

With so many places and so many people fearing and hating black men, I'm scared to death about the legislation being discussed to allow "concealed carry" in Illinois. You might feel safer with concealed carry, but I sure don't. There are too many scared people, too many people who will shoot first when it comes to black males. I urge the lawmakers to really think about concealed carry and in no way pass this dangerous legislation. There are too many "Quick Draw McGraws" out there wanting to prove their manhood or womanhood, too many people who believe the defense of "I feared for my life" is good enough when you gun a black man down.

It's personal with me because I'm a black man who can feel, and has felt in the past, the fear and hate of so many in the Rock River Valley. It's personal with me because I walk in many parts of the city and I don't want some "police wannabe" stopping me and asking me anything. I respect the authority of the police, but not some hotshot vigilante. With concealed carry I fear we will have more Trayvon Martins, not fewer.

To the lawmakers, think before you act. Crime affects us all. And more access to handguns is not the answer. Trayvon is not the first black male to die in a questionable situation, and he won't be the last. But let's not make it easier for people who shouldn't have guns or authority to prey on black males whose only crime is being black and being male.

Too many places in America, too many people who hate and fear black men — please don't give them any more excuses to kill us. Strike down concealed carry; people like me will thank you.

Ed Wells of Rockford writes a weekly column for the Rockford Register Star. If you would like to comment, email opinions@rrstar.com.

So this guy's argument against RTC is that Illinoisans are too racist? Seriously? What makes residents of this state any more prejudiced or untrustworthy than people in other states?

While the Martin case is a tragedy, not all of the facts are available yet. Even if Mr. Zimmerman is found guilty of a crime, this is still an isolated incident. Just as Treyvon shouldn't be judged by the actions of a few gang members who dress similarly, we shouldn't be judged by the alleged misdeeds of another gunowner in an isolated situation.

[chip]

I don't see what Trayvon's death has to do with CCW in Illinois or anywhere else. There are bad apples like Zimmerman everywhere, and they don't represent law abiding citizens any more than Bill Clinton represents the people of Arkansas. I mean, while Zimmerman may have been legally carrying a concealed firearm, his actions are highly questionable, and not what I feel a "reasonable person" would do. His background shows domestic abuse against his girlfriend as well as being charged for assaulting a police officer. This is NOT the poster boy for concealed carry. This is not someone our cause needs to align with, rather against. Clearly the guy thinks he's THE LAW. He was NOT part of an organized neighborhood watch, rather he appointed himself. Even after the police dispatcher told him to stop following Mr. Martin, Zimmerman continued. He left the safety of his vehicle, clearly looking to confront someone who he had not witnessed doing anything illegal. No, none of us know what happened after he got out of his car, except that he shot and killed Mr. Martin, and it could've been avoided if he wasn't looking for trouble. When you go looking for trouble, you usually find it, or it finds you.