93 replies to this topic

[Federal Farmer]

gravyboy77, on 24 March 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

ishmo, on 24 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

After reading this article I don't think it will matter what the true facts are even after they come out. The DOJ is investigating it as a hate crime and with Holder's current problems you can bet there will be a prosecution. Then you read this about the NBP's and the language used and wonder if this guy is going to have to use a weapon again to defend himself.

I guess this was to be expected after Jackson and Sharpton got there and started their usual racial agitation of people. This is going to get a lot uglier a lot faster than people thought.

Quote

SANFORD — Members of the New Black Panther Party are offering a $10,000 reward for the "capture" of George Zimmerman, leader Mikhail Muhammad announced during a protest in Sanford today.

When asked whether he was inciting violence, Muhammad replied defiantly saying: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

The bounty announcement came moments after members of the group called for the mobilization of 5,000 black men to capture George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin last month.

Muhammad said members of his group would search for Zimmerman themselves in Maitland and Jacksonville -- where the 28-year old worked before the shooting, employees there told the Orlando Sentinel. But he declined to say when they will begin their hunt.

Trayvon Martin case: New Black Panthers offer $10,000 bounty for capture of George Zimmerman

New Black Panther party issued a "Wanted dead or Alive" poster on George Zimmerman. Since the DOJ seems to look the other way with these radical nuts I'm sure that nothing will be done.



http://www.allvoices...k-panther-party

This is an interesting test of the First Amendment.  Is this speech criminal or not?  IIRC and IANAL, but if this threat is issued sincerely and if it is deemed inciteful of criminal action, then this speech is criminal and not protected for the First Amendment.

[lockman]

gravyboy77, on 24 March 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

ishmo, on 24 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

After reading this article I don't think it will matter what the true facts are even after they come out. The DOJ is investigating it as a hate crime and with Holder's current problems you can bet there will be a prosecution. Then you read this about the NBP's and the language used and wonder if this guy is going to have to use a weapon again to defend himself.

I guess this was to be expected after Jackson and Sharpton got there and started their usual racial agitation of people. This is going to get a lot uglier a lot faster than people thought.

Quote

SANFORD — Members of the New Black Panther Party are offering a $10,000 reward for the "capture" of George Zimmerman, leader Mikhail Muhammad announced during a protest in Sanford today.

When asked whether he was inciting violence, Muhammad replied defiantly saying: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

The bounty announcement came moments after members of the group called for the mobilization of 5,000 black men to capture George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin last month.

Muhammad said members of his group would search for Zimmerman themselves in Maitland and Jacksonville -- where the 28-year old worked before the shooting, employees there told the Orlando Sentinel. But he declined to say when they will begin their hunt.

Trayvon Martin case: New Black Panthers offer $10,000 bounty for capture of George Zimmerman

New Black Panther party issued a "Wanted dead or Alive" poster on George Zimmerman. Since the DOJ seems to look the other way with these radical nuts I'm sure that nothing will be done.



http://www.allvoices...k-panther-party

Would that poster not be offering a murder for hire?

[colt-45]

to me the black panthers just put out a hit on Zimmerman to me. they should be arrested for it but you know the DOJ is just going to look the other way like always.

Edited by colt-45, 24 March 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[TFC]

They're threatening someone with death. The First Amendment ends there.

[mynameisaric]

This is completely out of hand now. I hope the guy at least survives to get a fair trial. I would almost bet money on a hung jury and this gets dragged out for years. Way passed the point of people even being concerned with this incident anymore. One more distraction for the presidential nominees. One more issue that affects few and takes the attention away from matters that affect everyone. One more issue out of the many that go in the opposite direction that the antis blow up un-proportionally.

I heard on the liberal radio about people getting riled up over NRA defense stories. They go out and buy guns and get permits to carry and then this(Zimmerman vs Martin case) happens. Well how many well clad defense stories happen for every incident that catches some skepticism? They want to undo decades of work because of one circumstance, whereas these laws have proven to save many more from harm and death. Why do we live in a world where nobody can see the bigger picture or think for themselves?

I see this next election being another dead-locked congress full of filibusters. Congress is a direct reflection of this country. Nobody can compromise or see past their own nose.

I listen to a lot of talk radio, and read a lot of news. I really see a lot of the same opinions between democrats, republicans and even third parties. It is really sad that neither party is willing to compromise with the other party for fear of "party retaliation".

Sorry for the rant, I realize it was a little off topic. But there are just too many distractions from more important issues that affect the entire nation. As sad as this next statement is, it is entirely true. The Zimmerman/Martin case only affected 2 families and close friends. Lets say that it affected 500 people for a good round number. That is 500/311,591,917 or .00016% of the united state's population. How many lives are affected by a tax increase/decrease or directly or indirectly affected by commercial or industrial laws. Trade regulations with foreign nations? war policies? International relations? EPA mandates? Federal Reserve policies?

“The most basic principle to being a free American is the notion that we as individuals are responsible for our own lives and decisions. We do not have the right to rob our neighbors to make up for our mistakes, neither does our neighbor have any right to tell us how to live, so long as we aren’t infringing on their rights. Freedom to make bad decisions is inherent in the freedom to make good ones. If we are only free to make good decisions, we are not really free.”
― Ron Paul

[Sidartha]

Federal Farmer, on 24 March 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

This is an interesting test of the First Amendment.  Is this speech criminal or not?  IIRC and IANAL, but if this threat is issued sincerely and if it is deemed inciteful of criminal action, then this speech is criminal and not protected for the First Amendment.

It seems to me that if the $10,000 is actually there(there means anywhere it can be distributed to someone seeking to collect) then that is an overt act that would trigger a conspiracy charge.

Of course I am neither a Lawyer or a Politician so I'm just talking about what I would believe as a potential Juror.

You might think that any money anywhere is an overly broad statement but, on the other hand, if I reasonably believe they will pay someone to "bring him in. Dead or Alive" then I think it's illegal.

This is a long read but a good one about the possible consequences of a lethal force encounter.
http://survivalblog....by-tupreco.html
Of course not every justifiable use of force ends like this but with Chicago the way it is,  and with racial politics being the way they are, I feel it's worth the time.
Especially being so close to CCW in Illinois for the first time.

[oneshot]

Geneseo1911, on 23 March 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

This whole thing stinks to me.  The father spoke at a rally in NY yesterday, and sounded like a community organizer trying to make hay, not a grieving father.  We have one of those in Champaign; his son ran from the police and crashed his van, and Dad ran to the nearest microphone to scream that the police were racist.  When the facts came out, the police did exactly the right thing, and the father had instructed his son to run from the cops if they ever tried to pull him over.

The fact that the police didn't even arrest Zimmerman leads me to believe that his side of the story was at least believable, unless this is the most backward, banjo-music in the background town left in America.

I look forward to the facts coming out in this case.  I hope they do not paint CCW and SYG in a negative light.  If they don't, however, I expect the media to drop the whole story and pretend it never happened.

You forgot to add, the kid jumped out of the van while it was in motion, it ran up a curb, a lawn and crashed into a HOUSE.  lol  Yeah, the little prince was being picked on.  

[vezpa]

Here comes the next LA riot type bull$hit.  This is going to end up really, really bad for everyone.  We don't need this **** going on now.

Zimmerman is going to wind up dead no matter what now, he may as well just stay on the run.

Edited by vezpa, 25 March 2012 - 12:25 AM.

[gravyboy77]

mynameisaric, on 24 March 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

This is completely out of hand now. I hope the guy at least survives to get a fair trial. I would almost bet money on a hung jury and this gets dragged out for years. Way passed the point of people even being concerned with this incident anymore. One more distraction for the presidential nominees. One more issue that affects few and takes the attention away from matters that affect everyone. One more issue out of the many that go in the opposite direction that the antis blow up un-proportionally.

Sorry for the rant, I realize it was a little off topic. But there are just too many distractions from more important issues that affect the entire nation. As sad as this next statement is, it is entirely true. The Zimmerman/Martin case only affected 2 families and close friends. Lets say that it affected 500 people for a good round number. That is 500/311,591,917 or .00016% of the united state's population. How many lives are affected by a tax increase/decrease or directly or indirectly affected by commercial or industrial laws. Trade regulations with foreign nations? war policies? International relations? EPA mandates? Federal Reserve policies?

The left knew a long time ago that Obama would lose if the Economy was still sour (it is) with 8.3% unemployment and gas at $4.55 a gallon, since people aren't excited about hope and change anymore team Obama needed a new way to get people to vote for him. Team Obama, the left and their media friends have once again turned to Alinsky rule #1- Pick the Target, Freeze It, Personalize It and Polarize It.'

So far this year we have witnessed (most created by the W.H) and Democrats fights about social issues and controversies. It started with the fight about free Contraception and religion then the Planned parenthood/susan Komen outrage, then the Sandra Fluke/Rush Limbaugh debacle, now the Trayvon Martin shooting.

So far Obama and his crew have Riled up women and Blacks, i fully expect his next move to be some sort of Amnesty for Illegal's by executive order or something along those lines since he also needs Hispanics to win.

This is going to be their strategy all the way to November.

[bob]

Pictures of the dead guy flashing gangs signs are now surfacing.

[gravyboy77]

bob, on 25 March 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Pictures of the dead guy flashing gangs signs are now surfacing.

What? but that can't be. The little angel would never do something like that.

Notice also that the picture they use of the kid is a school picture that was taken when he was 12, not the more recent 6'2 17yo suspended football player.

Living in Illinois and Close to Chicago has taught me to wait until all the facts come out before making a judgement. How many times have you heard the parents of a murdered kid in Chicago tell the Media that he was a good kid, not involved with gangs or crime and was just minding his own business only to have pictures surface showing the kid throwing gang signs? It's happened to many times to remember.

[Joeyl]

gravyboy77, on 25 March 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

bob, on 25 March 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Pictures of the dead guy flashing gangs signs are now surfacing.

What? but that can't be. The little angel would never do something like that.

Notice also that the picture they use of the kid is a school picture that was taken when he was 12, not the more recent 6'2 17yo suspended football player.

Living in Illinois and Close to Chicago has taught me to wait until all the facts come out before making a judgement. How many times have you heard the parents of a murdered kid in Chicago tell the Media that he was a good kid, not involved with gangs or crime and was just minding his own business only to have pictures surface showing the kid throwing gang signs? It's happened to many times to remember.

Yep it's that pesky internet, throwing a wrench into the most well laid plans of those that would use a questionable shooting(and this is not a comment on whether or not Zimmerman was justified) and turn it into a political agenda liable to spark violent social unrest.

[NakPPI]

I've been trying so hard to keep out of this conversation, finally someone has made all the points for me so that I don't have to reiterate them.

More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case  Continue reading on Examiner.com More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/more-details-disturbing-rhetoric-emerge-trayvon-martin-case#ixzz1q9oRjvZE

Zimmerman was on his back when he fired the shots, there is an eye witness that says that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind. Should Zimmerman have followed Martin? No, of course not. When you take out all of the racist, anti NRA and anti gun rhetoric what you are left with is a simple question of whether this was a justified use of force? No castle doctrine issues, no stand your ground issues, etc. It's really just an "old fashioned" self defense case that the media has blown out of proportion.

[gravyboy77]

NakPPI, on 25 March 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

I've been trying so hard to keep out of this conversation, finally someone has made all the points for me so that I don't have to reiterate them.

More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case Continue reading on Examiner.com More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com http://www.examiner....e#ixzz1q9oRjvZE

Zimmerman was on his back when he fired the shots, there is an eye witness that says that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind. Should Zimmerman have followed Martin? No, of course not. When you take out all of the racist, anti NRA and anti gun rhetoric what you are left with is a simple question of whether this was a justified use of force? No castle doctrine issues, no stand your ground issues, etc. It's really just an "old fashioned" self defense case that the media has blown out of proportion.

The eyewitness that the media found yesterday saw the fight happening in front of him, Zimmerman was laying with his back on the ground (the cops said he had grass stains on his shirt), Martin was on top beating him, Zimmerman was screaming for help. What if (and yes I'm speculating) Marting saw he had a gun in a holster on his side and was trying to take it? Clearly that comes down to a justifiable use of deadly force? Yes/No?

They are reporting today that several of Zimmerman's black friends want to vouch for him not being the person the media is labeling him as but are afraid they are going to targeted and threatened if they do. This is the worst part of all this....

[lockman]

NakPPI, on 25 March 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

I've been trying so hard to keep out of this conversation, finally someone has made all the points for me so that I don't have to reiterate them.

More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case Continue reading on Examiner.com More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com http://www.examiner....e#ixzz1q9oRjvZE

Zimmerman was on his back when he fired the shots, there is an eye witness that says that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind. Should Zimmerman have followed Martin? No, of course not. When you take out all of the racist, anti NRA and anti gun rhetoric what you are left with is a simple question of whether this was a justified use of force? No castle doctrine issues, no stand your ground issues, etc. It's really just an "old fashioned" self defense case that the media has blown out of proportion.

I think you are right in respect to stand your ground, since Zimmerman interjected himself in the situation a stand your ground defense will not be easily defended. It will come down to a case of battery and was deadly force justified. Since Martin had no weapon, since they were both relatively young, no substantial disparate difference in size/weight, both male and obviously not infirm I would think Zimmerman will have a tough time arguing the use of deadly force. Martin pummeling him is not excusable but is the same category as a insulted/provoked man striking out at his transgressor, not legally justified but the taunter is not allowed the use of greater force because his action in some way provoked or escalated a confrontation.

This is a key point we all must take into account. If the pummeling reaches the point where I believe I may become gravely injured or even lose consciousness, at that point, I would probably do what Zimmerman did . The difference, I would never chase or confront someone on a mere speculation with no factual basis. I would hope and pray that my actions would never intentionally provoke a situation that would even remotely lead to the situation discussed herein.

Edited by lockman, 25 March 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[firepiper]

lockman, on 25 March 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

NakPPI, on 25 March 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

I've been trying so hard to keep out of this conversation, finally someone has made all the points for me so that I don't have to reiterate them.

More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case Continue reading on Examiner.com More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com http://www.examiner....e#ixzz1q9oRjvZE

Zimmerman was on his back when he fired the shots, there is an eye witness that says that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind. Should Zimmerman have followed Martin? No, of course not. When you take out all of the racist, anti NRA and anti gun rhetoric what you are left with is a simple question of whether this was a justified use of force? No castle doctrine issues, no stand your ground issues, etc. It's really just an "old fashioned" self defense case that the media has blown out of proportion.

I think you are right in respect to stand your ground, since Zimmerman interjected himself in the situation a stand your ground defense will not be easily defended. It will come down to a case of battery and was deadly force justified. Since Martin had no weapon, since they were both relatively young, no substantial disparate difference in size/weight, both male and obviously not infirm I would think Zimmerman will have a tough time arguing the use of deadly force. Martin pummeling him is not excusable but is the same category as a insulted/provoked man striking out at his transgressor, not legally justified but the taunter is not allowed the use of greater force because his action in some way provoked or escalated a confrontation.

This is a key point we all must take into account. If the pummeling reaches the point where I believe I may become gravely injured or even lose consciousness, at that point, I would probably do what Zimmerman did . The difference, I would never chase or confront someone on a mere speculation with no factual basis. I would hope and pray that my actions would never intentionally provoke a situation that would even remotely lead to the situation discussed herein.

How many stories have appeared recently regarding single punch incidents that have turned fatal?  

The whole Daley/Vanecko Kochman incident is the biggest that comes to mind....

Then there was the suburban Chicago female softball player who punched the guy as a bet that killed the guy....

and at least one or 2 more in the same vein...one within the last month or so on Chicago's north side.....

IMHO, this DID become a stand your ground case once the kid escalated it to a physical level.....

[firepiper]

Found the Link - Tribune

And Another - Laporte Herald-Argus

Edited to add second link....

Edited by firepiper, 25 March 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[NakPPI]

firepiper, on 25 March 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

lockman, on 25 March 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

NakPPI, on 25 March 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

I've been trying so hard to keep out of this conversation, finally someone has made all the points for me so that I don't have to reiterate them.

More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case Continue reading on Examiner.com More details, disturbing rhetoric emerge in Trayvon Martin case - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com http://www.examiner....e#ixzz1q9oRjvZE

Zimmerman was on his back when he fired the shots, there is an eye witness that says that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind. Should Zimmerman have followed Martin? No, of course not. When you take out all of the racist, anti NRA and anti gun rhetoric what you are left with is a simple question of whether this was a justified use of force? No castle doctrine issues, no stand your ground issues, etc. It's really just an "old fashioned" self defense case that the media has blown out of proportion.

I think you are right in respect to stand your ground, since Zimmerman interjected himself in the situation a stand your ground defense will not be easily defended. It will come down to a case of battery and was deadly force justified. Since Martin had no weapon, since they were both relatively young, no substantial disparate difference in size/weight, both male and obviously not infirm I would think Zimmerman will have a tough time arguing the use of deadly force. Martin pummeling him is not excusable but is the same category as a insulted/provoked man striking out at his transgressor, not legally justified but the taunter is not allowed the use of greater force because his action in some way provoked or escalated a confrontation.

This is a key point we all must take into account. If the pummeling reaches the point where I believe I may become gravely injured or even lose consciousness, at that point, I would probably do what Zimmerman did . The difference, I would never chase or confront someone on a mere speculation with no factual basis. I would hope and pray that my actions would never intentionally provoke a situation that would even remotely lead to the situation discussed herein.

IMHO, this DID become a stand your ground case once the kid escalated it to a physical level.....

Depending on what actually happened.  By all accounts Zimmerman was returning to his suv and ended up on his back after he was attacked. So he couldn't have retreated if he wanted to, which makes stand your ground irrelevant.

Sent from my tactical multicam SCH-I500.

[stm]

Police officers and others are trained to take "special circumstances " into consideration when deciding what level of force to respond with when attacked. These include size difference, age difference, number of attackers, special knowledge (martial arts), and ground position. If you are on the ground and your attacker is on top of you, you are at a great disadvantage. This is one of the factors to consider when determining the amount of force necessary to defend yourself.

[kurt555gs]

+1 NakPPI. I wish your logic was heard father than this forum.

* Carthago delenda est *

[Win30-30]

http://www.thesmokin...ademarks-769123

Unbelievable.  I don't know what else to say.

[kurt555gs]

I think the anti's really smell blood on the quest to get rid of Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground, Duty to Retreat laws. I was thinking what I can do to help? Here is what I did. ( Please no flames about I should have done this sooner ) I know.

[BobS]

Why No press attention to this HATE Crime? Jesse and Al will be there as soon as their hoodies come back from the cleaners…

Mississippi State University student outside a campus dorm room

[TTIN]

BobS, on 27 March 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Why No press attention to this HATE Crime? Jesse and Al will be there as soon as their hoodies come back from the cleaners…

Mississippi State University student outside a campus dorm room

To me,that link shows no indication that that shooting was a hate crime.

[BobS]

That is kind of my point. Why is one a "hate crime" and the other is not?

It was inevitable comparisons would be made

Edited by BobS, 27 March 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[vezpa]

Please read.

MyElderly couple forced from home.

[Drylok]

What a freaking mess. If only he would have stayed in his GD truck

[TomKoz]

In Kansas, 2 or 3 black kids throw gas on a white 12-14 year old boy on his front porch and light him on fire. They say racial things while doing so and NO freakin national media uprise???? No Hate Crime?? No DOJ investigation??? Why??? The white kid didn't look like Obama?? Political Correctness???? Or is it that the nation has come to expect as normal black on white crime??? OH did I say that???

NO I am NOT a racist. I believe in content of charachter rather than color of skin!

Problem is the media, politicians, Al not-so-Sharpton's and Jesse Jack-Ass-kons of the world exploit the less thoughful in this world to promote a political agenda that causes a societal loss of our collective moral compass.

[Drylok]

BobS, on 27 March 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

That is kind of my point. Why is one a "hate crime" and the other is not?

It was inevitable comparisons would be made

"Police are still investigating the incident as a hate crime, and are still looking for the two attackers"


http://www.gimmemo.c...-walking-school

[gravyboy77]

ABC news posted a grainy police station video of Zimmerman getting out in cuff and said it show no injuries on him, Daily caller took the ABC footage, blew it up and low and behold guess what you see in the photos? More liberal bias from our friends in the media

From the DC:
Police surveillance video of Zimmerman may show head injury

Here is the ABC story:
ABCNEWS: Police Video Shows No Blood On Zimmerman Night of Shooting...