93 replies to this topic

[mynameisaric]

This guy makes us all look bad and puts firearms freedoms (especially where we don't yet have them) in peril. The liberal media is all over this calling the Florida law a "shoot first", and excuse for racists to shoot minorities because they are scared. I believe there will be enough evidence between the witnesses and the 911 calls to prosecute this guy. Hopefully it doesn't damage the reputation of all the other law abiding citizens too bad.

http://www.usatoday....rida/53669448/1

[Ranger]

Yeah.  Bad situation.  One of my coworkers mentioned it to me.  I read the article and still don't know all the details of what actually happened; but it is definitely not good for our cause.

[Federal Farmer]

http://www.pagunblog...zimmerman-case/

[TFC]

There are those who believe that right to carry means that they now have extra powers and can shoot anything that the want as long as they remember to say, "I was in fear of my life."
That gun gives you no extra power, nor does it make you superior to someone. It's a tool. One meant to protect life.
He blew it... the same way others who feel the same about their gun ownership will eventually... and we will all end up paying for it.

[Tompo]

It's going to be hard for this guy to claim self defense when he chased after the kid.

[Federal Farmer]

Tompo, on 20 March 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

It's going to be hard for this guy to claim self defense when he chased after the kid.

It is his word against?  We still have due process and require a conviction based upon 'beyond a reasonable doubt' in this country.

I agree, he was totally wrong to pursue, profile and, I believe, ultimately murder that kid.  However, that doesn't change the way our system operates.

[kurt555gs]

I'm am seeing this Astroturfed all over anti gun sites. I think it us being orchestrated high up, and I think the goal is to repeal Florida's "stand your ground" laws and kill similar laws in other states. I smell a rat.

* Carthago delenda est *

[Federal Farmer]

kurt555gs, on 20 March 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

I'm am seeing this Astroturfed all over anti gun sites. I think it us being orchestrated high up, and I think the goal is to repeal Florida's "stand your ground" laws and kill similar laws in other states. I smell a rat.

* Carthago delenda est *

It is an attack on self-defense.  So-called "stand your ground" is nothing more than "no duty to retreat", which we have here in IL.

[vezpa]

I've been following it on another forum since it happened.  I hope the guy pays for his actions.  Such a shame this had to happen.  Thankfully they have the 911 call.  Just another fool abusing a right.

If they don't convict this guy, I think that County is going to have a lot of problems on its hands.  Don't need another riot.

Edited by vezpa, 20 March 2012 - 11:27 PM.

[GarandFan]

I have no comment on this case ... other than to say that the people have a right to use deadly force in a lawful and just manner.

And, all the varied speculation, spin, and politicizing makes me want to puke.  A grand jury has it now.  All the spinners and arm-wavers, few of whom care about the truth but most of whom care about some agenda, can go pound sand.

[gravyboy77]

It's not illegal for the shooter to follow the kid but we still don't know if the kid attacked the shooter first before he fired the gun.

According to the shooter the screams for help were from him and not the kid? How do you explain that? I heard that they are going to try voice recognition to figure out who was crying for help on the 911 tapes.

[Smallbore]

This national story is an excellent example of mob action being ruled by emotion. The news used a bad picture of Zimmerman and many nice pictures of Martin. I too was caught up in it at first siding with the boy, but.

What did the neighborhood watch guy do that was not expected of any or all neighborhood watch volunteers? He identified a stranger in his neighborhood and followed him. He called the police. He kept an eye on him.

I believe the main question is how did the two of them come face to face? Did Zimmerman decide not to wait for the police going up to confront the teen?  No indication of this in the story. I doubt the guy was that brave. Did the young man take offense at being followed? Did he come back to confront Zimmerman? Martin’s voice on the cell phone could indicate this. The initial story used Zimmerman’s extra 100 pound over Martin to suggested unfair advantage. TV news story show Martin as a football players. A few well developed muscles can overcome quite a few well developed fat cells. A fight was started with Zimmerman yelling for help.

Perhaps the local police did get it right. I hope the emotions of the nation stay checked waiting for a further fair investigation.

[Drylok]

According to the national neighborhood watch group Zimmerman was not an official member. I'm just pissed that he was ccw because he is a ***** *** and the antis are having a hay day with this.

[JR1987]

Smallbore, on 21 March 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

This national story is an excellent example of mob action being ruled by emotion. The news used a bad picture of Zimmerman and many nice pictures of Martin. I too was caught up in it at first siding with the boy, but.

What did the neighborhood watch guy do that was not expected of any or all neighborhood watch volunteers? He identified a stranger in his neighborhood and followed him. He called the police. He kept an eye on him.

I believe the main question is how did the two of them come face to face? Did Zimmerman decide not to wait for the police going up to confront the teen?  No indication of this in the story. I doubt the guy was that brave. Did the young man take offense at being followed? Did he come back to confront Zimmerman? Martin’s voice on the cell phone could indicate this. The initial story used Zimmerman’s extra 100 pound over Martin to suggested unfair advantage. TV news story show Martin as a football players. A few well developed muscles can overcome quite a few well developed fat cells. A fight was started with Zimmerman yelling for help.

Perhaps the local police did get it right. I hope the emotions of the nation stay checked waiting for a further fair investigation.

That is a fair point, though I haven't followed this story at all. Often times how each party is portrayed can be a deciding factor. All you need to do is make one party look crazy, and the other an innocent child.

Not saying this is the case; but as you said hopefully emotions can stay in check.

[Getzapped]

Smallbore, on 21 March 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

This national story is an excellent example of mob action being ruled by emotion. The news used a bad picture of Zimmerman and many nice pictures of Martin. I too was caught up in it at first siding with the boy, but.

What did the neighborhood watch guy do that was not expected of any or all neighborhood watch volunteers? He identified a stranger in his neighborhood and followed him. He called the police. He kept an eye on him.

I believe the main question is how did the two of them come face to face? Did Zimmerman decide not to wait for the police going up to confront the teen?  No indication of this in the story. I doubt the guy was that brave. Did the young man take offense at being followed? Did he come back to confront Zimmerman? Martin's voice on the cell phone could indicate this. The initial story used Zimmerman's extra 100 pound over Martin to suggested unfair advantage. TV news story show Martin as a football players. A few well developed muscles can overcome quite a few well developed fat cells. A fight was started with Zimmerman yelling for help.

Perhaps the local police did get it right. I hope the emotions of the nation stay checked waiting for a further fair investigation.

I share these same feelings.  i don't like the racial spin that is being put on this story! There are alot of qestions adn few answers!  how did a 250 lb 28 year old catach a running 140 lb 17 year old?  I think Zimmerman probably cornered that kid, the kid charged to defend himself.  I don't think that either of them knew each others intentions!  The media keeps using this picture of the kid when he was 13 yo.  If you check the kids facebook page their are pictures of him calling himself "Made N****" and showing hand gestures with his friends.  the media is very biased on this.  They refuse to show martin how he looks presently, which could be construed as "Suspicious" especially in the dark and rain!  or that he was currently suspended from school for lack of attendance! however they are quick to say how often zimmerman called the police, and that he was a racist, or a "loose cannon".  I am not saying he was a bad kid, I think he was just being a kid.  It is just a bad situation for both parties! It could have been avoided without harm to anyone!

[oneshot]

It's a horrible, awful tragedy and judging from our skewed perspective of news reports and 911 tapes, the shooter sounds completely in the wrong, not even justified by their no retreat self-defense laws.  That being said, this is still a statistically rare event, very rare.

[ChiShooter]

Drylok, on 21 March 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

According to the national neighborhood watch group Zimmerman was not an official member. I'm just pissed that he was ccw because he is a ***** *** and the antis are having a hay day with this.

In the words of our wise mayor :

[Pecker]

A neighborhood watch guy is not a cop.  He has no duty or liberty to stop a crime.  He is there to report and follow instructions.  By continuing to pursue he escalated the situation further and arguably is the aggressor.

I hate to say it, but I think its important gun rights groups actually speak out against Zimmerman.  From how it looks, he was not a victim.  If the facts continue to come out the way they have (if they are in fact facts) it's important to make it clear that gun rights organizations do not support him and in fact condemn his actions.  It's important to safeguard rights for the rest of us.

[xmikex]

As gun owners a lot of us will spend incredible amounts of time getting our drawstroke 1/10th second faster, shooting smaller and faster groups, transitioning to multiple targets etc. etc.  We focus on everything leading up to a fight where we are forced to stop someone using a weapon - then pack up our gear and call it a day.

We ignore the aftermath of a shooting at our peril.  We don't practice making 911 calls, interacting with responding officers, getting a good defense attorney lined up, etc.etc.

Guys also don't focus on awareness (Cooper's mental color codes anyone?) and don't focus on de-escalation, disengagement and walking away from conflicts.


Was Zimmerman justified in shooting Martin? I don't know.
Did Zimmerman create the situation that ultimately led to Martin's death?  Yes.


Zimmerman should have been a good witness.  I'm sure he's regretting his actions more than anyone can imagine.  Not only due to the public outcry but due to the fact that he created a situation where a human life was taken when it didn't need to be.

[Danielm60660]

xmikex, on 21 March 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

As gun owners a lot of us will spend incredible amounts of time getting our drawstroke 1/10th second faster, shooting smaller and faster groups, transitioning to multiple targets etc. etc.  We focus on everything leading up to a fight where we are forced to stop someone using a weapon - then pack up our gear and call it a day.

We ignore the aftermath of a shooting at our peril.  We don't practice making 911 calls, interacting with responding officers, getting a good defense attorney lined up, etc.etc.

Guys also don't focus on awareness (Cooper's mental color codes anyone?) and don't focus on de-escalation, disengagement and walking away from conflicts.


Was Zimmerman justified in shooting Martin? I don't know.
Did Zimmerman create the situation that ultimately led to Martin's death?  Yes.


Zimmerman should have been a good witness.  I'm sure he's regretting his actions more than anyone can imagine.  Not only due to the public outcry but due to the fact that he created a situation where a human life was taken when it didn't need to be.

Post of the year so far. Awareness, avoidance/disengagement and being smarter than the bad guy beats Rambo $#!t anyday. This is not the same as retreating until you can't, but recognizing and avoiding creating more problems.

I'm only commenting based on what I've read so far, but I think when he was told not to follow, he should have listened.
DM

Edited by Danielm60660, 22 March 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[mynameisaric]

I started this discussion, and I don't want to get the wrong impression. The media bias is making him look bad and as a result makes us look bad. I AM NOT condemning the guy, I truly believe in due process and I believe (based on the media bias I have been presented) that this guy should be tried. Other than that, I just want to make sure OUR rights are not hurt in this situation. In Illinois, we have very few rights to defend ourselves outside of the home and as activists, we need to be vigilant when something like this happens. We CANNOT accept sketchy circumstances that make us look bad as a group. So we need to stand by our Constitution and our Bill of Rights and make sure this guy gets due process. On the other hand, we need to make sure that people on the fence(not far left, not far right) know that we are not a group of crazy racists, which is how a lot of the liberal side views us (us being gun rights/self defense activists).

[Bud]

mynameisaric, on 22 March 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

I started this discussion, and I don't want to get the wrong impression. The media bias is making him look bad and as a result makes us look bad. I AM NOT condemning the guy, I truly believe in due process and I believe (based on the media bias I have been presented) that this guy should be tried. Other than that, I just want to make sure OUR rights are not hurt in this situation. In Illinois, we have very few rights to defend ourselves outside of the home and as activists, we need to be vigilant when something like this happens. We CANNOT accept sketchy circumstances that make us look bad as a group. So we need to stand by our Constitution and our Bill of Rights and make sure this guy gets due process. On the other hand, we need to make sure that people on the fence(not far left, not far right) know that we are not a group of crazy racists, which is how a lot of the liberal side views us (us being gun rights/self defense activists).

I think all of the pro-gun groups need to come dowen against Zimmerman.

This has nothing to do with stand your ground. The deceased did not approach Zommerman, Zimmerman approached (followed ) him. The 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman that he didn't need to follow the deceased. But Zimmerman did.

Zimmerman did not see any offense committed until (allegedly) he approached the deceased.  Now at that point, who was the real offender? The deceased who had not done anytrhing or Zimmerman who was following (or was it pursuing?).

Think about the stand your ground law. Put yourself in the kid's position.  You're headed home and you realize someone is following you. Sudddenly, he comes at you and you feel threatened. What would you do in that situation?

Zimmerman needs no pity. If he had reported the suspicious person to the police and continued with whatever he was doing, none of this would have happened. He was the aggressor in this incident.

[Federal Farmer]

BudMan5, on 22 March 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

mynameisaric, on 22 March 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

I started this discussion, and I don't want to get the wrong impression. The media bias is making him look bad and as a result makes us look bad. I AM NOT condemning the guy, I truly believe in due process and I believe (based on the media bias I have been presented) that this guy should be tried. Other than that, I just want to make sure OUR rights are not hurt in this situation. In Illinois, we have very few rights to defend ourselves outside of the home and as activists, we need to be vigilant when something like this happens. We CANNOT accept sketchy circumstances that make us look bad as a group. So we need to stand by our Constitution and our Bill of Rights and make sure this guy gets due process. On the other hand, we need to make sure that people on the fence(not far left, not far right) know that we are not a group of crazy racists, which is how a lot of the liberal side views us (us being gun rights/self defense activists).

I think all of the pro-gun groups need to come dowen against Zimmerman.

This has nothing to do with stand your ground. The deceased did not approach Zommerman, Zimmerman approached (followed ) him. The 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman that he didn't need to follow the deceased. But Zimmerman did.

Zimmerman did not see any offense committed until (allegedly) he approached the deceased.  Now at that point, who was the real offender? The deceased who had not done anytrhing or Zimmerman who was following (or was it pursuing?).

Think about the stand your ground law. Put yourself in the kid's position.  You're headed home and you realize someone is following you. Sudddenly, he comes at you and you feel threatened. What would you do in that situation?

Zimmerman needs no pity. If he had reported the suspicious person to the police and continued with whatever he was doing, none of this would have happened. He was the aggressor in this incident.

I agree with the caveat that we don't know the full story.  It could be that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor, but then backed off and was then attacked.  Per my non-lawyer understanding, if you disengage and then are attacked you become the victim even if you initially instigated.  We don't know yet fully what happened.  I strongly suspect that Zimmerman murdered Trayvor, but suspicions aren't evidence.  Due process must be done here.

[Drylok]

BudMan5, on 22 March 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

mynameisaric, on 22 March 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

I started this discussion, and I don't want to get the wrong impression. The media bias is making him look bad and as a result makes us look bad. I AM NOT condemning the guy, I truly believe in due process and I believe (based on the media bias I have been presented) that this guy should be tried. Other than that, I just want to make sure OUR rights are not hurt in this situation. In Illinois, we have very few rights to defend ourselves outside of the home and as activists, we need to be vigilant when something like this happens. We CANNOT accept sketchy circumstances that make us look bad as a group. So we need to stand by our Constitution and our Bill of Rights and make sure this guy gets due process. On the other hand, we need to make sure that people on the fence(not far left, not far right) know that we are not a group of crazy racists, which is how a lot of the liberal side views us (us being gun rights/self defense activists).

I think all of the pro-gun groups need to come dowen against Zimmerman.

This has nothing to do with stand your ground. The deceased did not approach Zommerman, Zimmerman approached (followed ) him. The 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman that he didn't need to follow the deceased. But Zimmerman did.

Zimmerman did not see any offense committed until (allegedly) he approached the deceased.  Now at that point, who was the real offender? The deceased who had not done anytrhing or Zimmerman who was following (or was it pursuing?).

Think about the stand your ground law. Put yourself in the kid's position.  You're headed home and you realize someone is following you. Sudddenly, he comes at you and you feel threatened. What would you do in that situation?

Zimmerman needs no pity. If he had reported the suspicious person to the police and continued with whatever he was doing, none of this would have happened. He was the aggressor in this incident.

YES! And if he is found guilty by a jury of his peers I hope he gets capital punishment. Not so much for the murder but just for being a dumb ass, tough guy, ninja mall cop wanna be.

[vezpa]

BudMan5, on 22 March 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

mynameisaric, on 22 March 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

I started this discussion, and I don't want to get the wrong impression. The media bias is making him look bad and as a result makes us look bad. I AM NOT condemning the guy, I truly believe in due process and I believe (based on the media bias I have been presented) that this guy should be tried. Other than that, I just want to make sure OUR rights are not hurt in this situation. In Illinois, we have very few rights to defend ourselves outside of the home and as activists, we need to be vigilant when something like this happens. We CANNOT accept sketchy circumstances that make us look bad as a group. So we need to stand by our Constitution and our Bill of Rights and make sure this guy gets due process. On the other hand, we need to make sure that people on the fence(not far left, not far right) know that we are not a group of crazy racists, which is how a lot of the liberal side views us (us being gun rights/self defense activists).

I think all of the pro-gun groups need to come dowen against Zimmerman.

This has nothing to do with stand your ground. The deceased did not approach Zommerman, Zimmerman approached (followed ) him. The 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman that he didn't need to follow the deceased. But Zimmerman did.

Zimmerman did not see any offense committed until (allegedly) he approached the deceased.  Now at that point, who was the real offender? The deceased who had not done anytrhing or Zimmerman who was following (or was it pursuing?).

Think about the stand your ground law. Put yourself in the kid's position.  You're headed home and you realize someone is following you. Sudddenly, he comes at you and you feel threatened. What would you do in that situation?

Zimmerman needs no pity. If he had reported the suspicious person to the police and continued with whatever he was doing, none of this would have happened. He was the aggressor in this incident.

True,

He never had to leave his SUV, he could have just stayed put and on the phone until authorities came.  He put himself in harms way.

[Johnnybgood]

I for one will wait for the investigation to be over. Have seen to many times where the newspapers/media don't give all of the facts/skew facts/or make up facts. Especially when disparagy of race is involved. In my opinion there should be no comments by any Pro-2A group until all the true facts are known.

[mynameisaric]

Johnnybgood, on 22 March 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

I for one will wait for the investigation to be over. Have seen to many times where the newspapers/media don't give all of the facts/skew facts/or make up facts. Especially when disparagy of race is involved. In my opinion there should be no comments by any Pro-2A group until all the true facts are known.

I agree about waiting for the investigation to be over. But the antis need to know we're just as concerned about this as they are. WE just are not willing to fry somebody and lose our rights over speculation.

[soundguy]

My thoughts...

This is far beyond sad for all involved.

The racial card is being played by the family and supporters of the dead kid. This is typical... and the RC probably should be played to insure escalation of a proper investigation. If they weren't saying it, it wouldn't be on TV or radio. The NEWS reports things that are said or done. NEWS did not play the race card.

The NEWS I've seen (CBS Network News) is actually reporting the story as it is. I have seen no conjecture or opinion here.

The internet bloggers are agendized amateurs with no legal departments. They can say anything they want whether it's fact or not. Most of what they write is opinion. Not NEWS.

The facts are not all in. The investigation has barely begun.

At this point, no one should be "coming down against" anyone. We will know more later... It could take awhile to sort this out.

"Media" and Journalism (NEWS) are not the same... Even if they pretend to be. The two terms are not interchangeable. Even if you THINK they are.

Chill.

We'll know more in a few weeks.

Try not to add to the insanity.

[Lou]

Everything will be OK soon.. The Rev Al Sharpton is on his way down to Florida and it will all be straighten out.

With the 50 shootings and 10 killings last weekend in Chicago, why is the MSM focusing on this one in Florida?
Is it because murders in Chicago are just a normal condition in a gun-free zone?

[Drylok]

Lou, on 23 March 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

Everything will be OK soon.. The Rev Al Sharpton is on his way down to Florida and it will all be straighten out.

With the 50 shootings and 10 killings last weekend in Chicago, why is the MSM focusing on this one in Florida?
Is it because murders in Chicago are just a normal condition in a gun-free zone?

3 reasons, 1 is because it's being perseived as white on black which is retarted. 2 because he was licensed to carry and 3 because the antis are trying to blame the no duty to retreat law in FL even though that law is not applicable in this case.