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Open Carry/Conceal Carry Split off topic from HB5745


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#1 kurt555gs

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:08 PM

HB5745 seems to cut my idea of unlicensed open carry outside of home rule areas off at the knees if it passes.

Thanks a lot.

* Carthago delenda est *
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#2 vezpa

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:34 PM

How about this to settle this nonsense. For you people who object to HB148 or H 5745 pledge right here and now that you will never stoop so low as to apply for a RTC permit when it passes.

Who of you pledge to never settle for anything less than Constitutional Carry?



Lou,

I honestly don't think anyone believes Constitutional Carry will fly here in Illinois now. What we do want however is "SHALL ISSUE" with no strings attached for BS cop-outs that so many others in other states have been forced to deal with.

If Todd is saying this is a good bill I will believe him and roll with it. When my local Sheriff decides I live too close to a Illinois State Park and 2 schools and decides that me carrying a gun here is a bad idea and that becomes a justification for denying me a permit, we've got problems.
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#3 vezpa

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:20 PM


I did read in HB5745 it gives the choice between open or concealed carry. For me personally it would solve the open carry question because I would get the license.
Having open carry in the license means there would be no chance of passing an open carry law for those with only a FOID card.


Just as an aside ... I am a full supporter of the right to carry for lawful purposes, whether openly or concealed and without some special license or approval.

I've also been in many unlicensed open carry states, and have lived in one for nearly three years now. Frankly, I almost NEVER see anyone openly carrying firearms, even where it's perfectly legal and where people (including LE) don't think it's any big deal (ie. doesn't scare the sheeple).



Visit Arizona, its the only real place I've seen open carry exercised on such a large scale.

Edited by vezpa, 13 March 2012 - 09:21 PM.

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#4 NakPPI

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:27 PM


I did read in HB5745 it gives the choice between open or concealed carry. For me personally it would solve the open carry question because I would get the license.
Having open carry in the license means there would be no chance of passing an open carry law for those with only a FOID card.


Just as an aside ... I am a full supporter of the right to carry for lawful purposes, whether openly or concealed and without some special license or approval.

I've also been in many unlicensed open carry states, and have lived in one for nearly three years now. Frankly, I almost NEVER see anyone openly carrying firearms, even where it's perfectly legal and where people (including LE) don't think it's any big deal (ie. doesn't scare the sheeple).

That said ... can I ask you why the open carry issue is important to you? If so, how does that importance differ in an ideological versus a practical manner?


Unless you're out in the woods hiking or something, there is no practical reason to open carry for most people. It is suicide. You lose your tactical advantage and tell the bad guys who to shoot first. I understand people wanting open carry, rah rah rah constitution and such, but for most practical purposes in our "modern" society, concealed is going to be preferred for most people. I do like having the "option" so that you're not ticketed or arrested for unintentionally exposing a firearm while helping out an old lady at a grocery store reach an item on the top shelf. I know Kurt loves his open carry, and he is welcome to beat that drum all he likes, but this bill has to be written so that it PASSES, not to be PERFECT.
Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#5 kurt555gs

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:56 PM

Thanks Buzzard, I thought I read that before. Like I originally said, if HB5745 passes I will apply for and go through whatever is necessary to get the license. Then I could open or concealed carry where I felt either was appropriate. I'm covered.

What will also happen is that there will be no chance of passing an open carry in non home rural areas without a carry permit. I was never advocating showing up to Starbucks on Michigan avenue open carrying. What I would have like to see is a method for people in more rural areas be able to walk the dog with a side arm openly displayed without having to go through the quite extensive permitting process. Or, a group of kids out plinking not being arrested because they walked across an unseen street easement out in the woods. There is good reason to not have to go through permitting while open carrying because anyone in law enforcement can see you are armed.

With open carry in the license, the above scenario will never happen. I probably should be selfish and not care because with a license I will be able to do either, and HB148 didn't allow that.

I just have a hard time being selfish.
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#6 Tvandermyde

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:09 PM

Thanks Buzzard, I thought I read that before. Like I originally said, if HB5745 passes I will apply for and go through whatever is necessary to get the license. Then I could open or concealed carry where I felt either was appropriate. I'm covered.

What will also happen is that there will be no chance of passing an open carry in non home rural areas without a carry permit. I was never advocating showing up to Starbucks on Michigan avenue open carrying. What I would have like to see is a method for people in more rural areas be able to walk the dog with a side arm openly displayed without having to go through the quite extensive permitting process. Or, a group of kids out plinking not being arrested because they walked across an unseen street easement out in the woods. There is good reason to not have to go through permitting while open carrying because anyone in law enforcement can see you are armed.

With open carry in the license, the above scenario will never happen. I probably should be selfish and not care because with a license I will be able to do either, and HB148 didn't allow that.

I just have a hard time being selfish.



Kurt -- First off open carry is illegal in Illinois. even in unincorporated areas.

Second, it has been a 20 year fight just to get to RTC. Consitutional Carry probably won't happen for that long after we get RTC.

your pi$$ing and moaning about it is wearing thin.
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#7 kurt555gs

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:14 PM

Fine. I quit.

* Carthago delenda est *
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#8 willxjcherokee

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:43 AM

Lets remember we are on the same team :P
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#9 Drylok

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:08 AM

Fine. I quit.

* Carthago delenda est *


Oh come on, before you pick up your ball and go home I encourage you to research how many states went from right denied to constitutional carry in one sweep. I'll give you a hint, it's starts with a Z.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks"
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#10 sctman800

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:14 AM

There is "what we would like" and there is "reality." I would "like" to win the lottery. In "reality" I will remain old, fat and poor. Not my favorite scenario but I will live with what there is. Jim.
Kristofferson wrote it and Janis sang it "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

#11 bob

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:33 AM


Fine. I quit.

* Carthago delenda est *


Oh come on, before you pick up your ball and go home I encourage you to research how many states went from right denied to constitutional carry in one sweep. I'll give you a hint, it's starts with a Z.


Doesn't mean it can't happen. However it seems real unlikely. I suspect the courts will be the ones making the decision and it is just as perilous to predict what course the courts will take as it is to predict the course politics will take.

Realistically, even if we get LTC in IL there is still a lot of work to do in every state, even the ones we see as "good" right now. Over time we have come to accept the idea that restrictions on our rights in every area are reasonable, when in reality very few truly are.

The pendulum is swinging our way on the 2A right now, but we have completely lost on the 4th, and government at all levels has conspired to try and kill off parts of the first with considerable success. That will be an even bigger fight. Bureaucrats and politicians are not going to just give up their power that easily. The 9th and 10th amendments are just dead and badly need to be brought back to life.
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Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

The opinions expressed by this poster do not reflect the official stance of Illinois Carry. Apparently there was some confusion on the part of at least one person that it does, and I want to make things clear that my opinion is my own and that whatever the official stance of IC is or is not at present, it may or may not reflect my own opinion.

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#12 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:38 AM

Where did I ever espouse Constitutional Carry? I'm done promoting this, but what I was working toward was very specific. Open Carry by FOID card holders in non home rule areas.

I have always supported the concealed carry bills that have been negotiated. HB5745 has open carry in it, and that is an accomplishment.

I just thought we should have rural open carry in Illinois.

Don't confuse what I was looking to do.

Cheers.

Edited by kurt555gs, 14 March 2012 - 08:43 AM.

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#13 bob

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:51 AM

That said ... can I ask you why the open carry issue is important to you? If so, how does that importance differ in an ideological versus a practical manner?

I am inclined to agree that CC is mostly a better choice tactically.

However, I would point out something that a judge recently pointed out that we might want to keep in mind.

A citizen may not be required to offer a good and substantial reason why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right's existence is all the reason he needs.


Right now all we are discussing is a limited permission that we have to pay for to exercise our rights. Those who are pointing that out are absolutely right.

OTOH, it is not likely that we get any of our God given rights back that we have allowed government to gradually steal away from us in big chunks. It just does not work that way.

It is one of the reasons I do not like the term "right to carry". There is no right involved if you have to pay an outrageous fee and go thru a whole bunch of absurd steps to be allowed to engage in a protected activity. It is not much different than getting a permit to build a fence. The government will decide what kind of fence you can build, and where, and who can build it for you. You don't actually have any right to build or even have a fence, and with LTC there is no real "right" to carry. You have only a very limited permission from government in both cases.

I can understand why some would think that LTC would just perpetuate the problem. In some respects they are correct. But, politics and the courts are involved, and there is no basis to believe we can get any of our rights back very easily. Little baby steps are what it will take. The history from other states suggests that as people get used to the idea of the average citizen carrying, the restrictions tend to get reduced, at least during the last few decades.

I am pretty sure that having to "prove" yourself to government in order to exercise a fundamental right was not what anyone who voted for the bill of rights had in mind. But that is realistically where we are at right now. Maybe in another 100 years.

Edited by bob, 14 March 2012 - 08:52 AM.

bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

The opinions expressed by this poster do not reflect the official stance of Illinois Carry. Apparently there was some confusion on the part of at least one person that it does, and I want to make things clear that my opinion is my own and that whatever the official stance of IC is or is not at present, it may or may not reflect my own opinion.

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#14 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:06 AM

I will quit arguing, promoting, unlicensed open carry, not the cause of the Second amendment. If HB5745 passes we will have open carry which is my preference and important. Being able to get a license to carry, concealed or open is better than what we have now. The way of politics.

Hopefully HB5745 passes and I won't have to take up my unlicensed open carry crusade again.

Cheers
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#15 Tvandermyde

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:43 AM

I will quit arguing, promoting, unlicensed open carry, not the cause of the Second amendment. If HB5745 passes we will have open carry which is my preference and important. Being able to get a license to carry, concealed or open is better than what we have now. The way of politics.

Hopefully HB5745 passes and I won't have to take up my unlicensed open carry crusade again.

Cheers



unlicensed open carry -- IS consitutional carry, even if you try to call it by another name.

We have made great strides in getting legislators to get passed the fear of any carry at all. open carry still scares many. And the reality is, that there are not 15 votes for an unlicensed carry bill of any type in the House.

tilt at windmills all you like. Add some more lumps to your noggin with the brick if it tickles your fancy. But it is times like this, that We become our own worst enemy, as all the attention and diversion from the real issue of passing a carry bill cause someone doesn't like this part or that part.

That their pet issue isn't addressed or addressed the way they want it to.

Molly, Abolt, Dona nd others spent countless hours reading drafts, debating language and meeting with law enforcement groups to try and hammer out a proposal that can pass.

If you don't like it, move to AZ where your dreams will come true, and don't apply for the permit.

either way, even based upon the most liberal reading of Heller, I see no way that SCOTUS is going to endorse any form of unlicensed carry as being required by the constitution. Just not goning to happen.

I fully expect them to say some form of carry must be allowed, and that it must be a fiar and reasonable process to get through. But I am under no delusions that they are going to toss out permit or license laws for carrying in public.

to that end, I try to work towards what is doable to get us passed the complete prohibition we are in.

You want to try and carry openly without a permit in unincorporated areas, go ahead. when you get arrested don't bother me.
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#16 bob

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:45 AM

I will quit arguing, promoting, unlicensed open carry, not the cause of the Second amendment. If HB5745 passes we will have open carry which is my preference and important. Being able to get a license to carry, concealed or open is better than what we have now. The way of politics.

Hopefully HB5745 passes and I won't have to take up my unlicensed open carry crusade again.

Cheers



I would not be giving up on unlicensed carry of any flavor at all. But I don't see it coming any time real soon to Illinois. There is just too much work to be done first.

We will probably get a SCOTUS decision that will tell us a lot about what the parameters of the right to carry will be in June of either 2013 or 2014. I suspect unlicensed carry of any kind will not be part of that decision.

That means we will have to continue to duke it out in the legislatures for the next 4 or 5 decades.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

The opinions expressed by this poster do not reflect the official stance of Illinois Carry. Apparently there was some confusion on the part of at least one person that it does, and I want to make things clear that my opinion is my own and that whatever the official stance of IC is or is not at present, it may or may not reflect my own opinion.

http://ilbob.blogspot.com/

#17 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:53 AM

I support HB5745! I want to see it become law!

Sheesh!

* Carthago delenda est *
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#18 stm

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:07 AM

I support HB5745! I want to see it become law!

+ 1!

I think that's something that everyone here can agree upon.

yea everyone makes fun of the redneck till the zombies show up. . .


#19 samy12386

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:31 AM



I did read in HB5745 it gives the choice between open or concealed carry. For me personally it would solve the open carry question because I would get the license.
Having open carry in the license means there would be no chance of passing an open carry law for those with only a FOID card.


Just as an aside ... I am a full supporter of the right to carry for lawful purposes, whether openly or concealed and without some special license or approval.

I've also been in many unlicensed open carry states, and have lived in one for nearly three years now. Frankly, I almost NEVER see anyone openly carrying firearms, even where it's perfectly legal and where people (including LE) don't think it's any big deal (ie. doesn't scare the sheeple).

That said ... can I ask you why the open carry issue is important to you? If so, how does that importance differ in an ideological versus a practical manner?


Unless you're out in the woods hiking or something, there is no practical reason to open carry for most people. It is suicide. You lose your tactical advantage and tell the bad guys who to shoot first. I understand people wanting open carry, rah rah rah constitution and such, but for most practical purposes in our "modern" society, concealed is going to be preferred for most people. I do like having the "option" so that you're not ticketed or arrested for unintentionally exposing a firearm while helping out an old lady at a grocery store reach an item on the top shelf. I know Kurt loves his open carry, and he is welcome to beat that drum all he likes, but this bill has to be written so that it PASSES, not to be PERFECT.


I laugh out loud when people talk about tactical advantages... Put away your mag pul dynamic art of whatever DVD. Nothing says freedom like an openly carried firearm. I guess all law enforcement and military have no tactical advantage huh?
SEMPER FI

#20 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:17 AM

Garandfan asked why I like open carry. Is it a constitutional statement? No, nothing so nobel, it's simply comfort. Everyone has a pistol that is their favorite. The one that just feels natural. The one they enjoy shooting the best. My favorite pistol is the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 454 Cassul / .45 Long Colt. In the winter, under a heavy Carhartt it may be possible to conceal, but in the 90 Degree Summer, wearing only a Tee Shirt and jeans, how could one hide this 3+ pound hand cannon? IWB carry? Your kidding! I have several little light concealable pistols, but if it is legal, why not carry what I like the best?

Posted Image

Edited by kurt555gs, 14 March 2012 - 11:19 AM.

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#21 vezpa

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:38 AM

tilt at windmills all you like.


Todd,

I have to admit I've never heard that one before.

:headbang1:
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#22 Federal Farmer

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:53 AM

I would not be giving up on unlicensed carry of any flavor at all. But I don't see it coming any time real soon to Illinois. There is just too much work to be done first.

We will probably get a SCOTUS decision that will tell us a lot about what the parameters of the right to carry will be in June of either 2013 or 2014. I suspect unlicensed carry of any kind will not be part of that decision.

That means we will have to continue to duke it out in the legislatures for the next 4 or 5 decades.


Someday there will be 49 states with Constitutional Carry and we'll be fighting for it in IL...

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men [and women] stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

--George Orwell

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#23 Federal Farmer

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:56 AM


tilt at windmills all you like.


Todd,

I have to admit I've never heard that one before.

:headbang1:


Google "Don Quixote". Excellent book. They coined the word "Quixotic" from it. I kinda like tilting at windmills myself.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men [and women] stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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#24 mack69

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:24 PM

Couldn't agree more FF...Posted Image



I would not be giving up on unlicensed carry of any flavor at all. But I don't see it coming any time real soon to Illinois. There is just too much work to be done first.

We will probably get a SCOTUS decision that will tell us a lot about what the parameters of the right to carry will be in June of either 2013 or 2014. I suspect unlicensed carry of any kind will not be part of that decision.

That means we will have to continue to duke it out in the legislatures for the next 4 or 5 decades.


Someday there will be 49 states with Constitutional Carry and we'll be fighting for it in IL...


"The defense of our liberties is first at the ballot box, then the soap box, then the jury box and finally, failing all else, the cartridge box"
"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

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#25 NakPPI

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:47 PM

Kurt, I love you man, but your whole beef is because you can't conceal a 53 oz dwarven musket??

I know retired police officers that hated carrying a Beretta 92 because of the weight and that hunk of iron weighs 35 oz unloaded...

Speaking from experience here, you'll carry that 454 for a week before it becomes a safe queen. :headbang1:

Sent from my tactical multicam SCH-I500.
Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#26 Tvandermyde

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:58 PM

Kurt --

"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public,or carried in a vehicle in such a way as it is concealed from view of the public."

use an in the wasteband holster to where less than half the gun is sticking out. . . . just an idea
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#27 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:05 PM

Todd. Pass HB5745 and all is good!

* Carthago delenda est *
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#28 Xwing

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

Todd. Pass HB5745 and all is good!

* Carthago delenda est *



:headbang1:


Totally unrelated, but what is the symbolic "Carthage" per your signature line? Oppressive gun laws? General government Anti freedom laws? Chicago Democratic Political machine? Just curious.

Edited by Xwing, 14 March 2012 - 01:31 PM.

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#29 abolt243

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:19 PM


Todd. Pass HB5745 and all is good!

* Carthago delenda est *



Posted Image


Totally unrelated, but what is the symbolic "Carthage" per your signature line? Oppressive gun laws? General government Anti freedom laws? Chicago Democratic Political machine? Just curious.


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#30 Bud

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:25 PM



Todd. Pass HB5745 and all is good!

* Carthago delenda est *



Posted Image


Totally unrelated, but what is the symbolic "Carthage" per your signature line? Oppressive gun laws? General government Anti freedom laws? Chicago Democratic Political machine? Just curious.


Google is your friend!!

I don't think he is referring to Cato's speech but rather a job undone. They did actually destroy Carthage but it took a while

Bud

 

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