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Open Carry/Conceal Carry Split off topic from HB5745


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#31 Don Gwinn

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:27 PM

Google would tell you what "Carthago delenda est" means, but that will leave you with "Carthage must be destroyed." What he's asking is whether Kurt is using Carthage as a metaphor for something in our own time, and if so, what?


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#32 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:40 PM

What I am refereeing to is Cato's use of "Carthage must be destroyed" in every speech he made no matter what the topic was. And I agree we need to help the date crops, and Carthage must be destroyed. It means we all have to keep the Right to Bear Arms in the forefront of what we do.
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#33 abolt243

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:56 PM




Posted Image

Totally unrelated, but what is the symbolic "Carthage" per your signature line? Oppressive gun laws? General government Anti freedom laws? Chicago Democratic Political machine? Just curious.


Google is your friend!!

I don't think he is referring to Cato's speech but rather a job undone. They did actually destroy Carthage but it took a while



Naa Na Na Na Naaa Naaaaaa,, he WAS talking about Cato's speech!! Well, kinda, sorta.

OK, so "Carthage must be destroyed" is a metaphor for "We must keep fighting for the return of our right to keep and bear arms until we're successful!!".

You guys are getting all philosophical, metaphorical and Greek on me. I understand open vs. concealed and LTC vs Constitutional carry better!!

Carry On!!

Abolt
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
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Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#34 GarandFan

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:59 PM

Garandfan asked why I like open carry. ... Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 454 Cassul ...
Posted Image


Holy smokes! Talk about the right to "bear" arms!

Years past while hunting, I used to carry (open-carry) my Ruger Redhawk in measly .44 mag. The strongest memory I have from those times is that I don't want to carry a Ruger Redhawk ...
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#35 es503IL

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:08 PM

Naa Na Na Na Naaa Naaaaaa,, he WAS talking about Cato's speech!! Well, kinda, sorta.

OK, so "Carthage must be destroyed" is a metaphor for "We must keep fighting for the return of our right to keep and bear arms until we're successful!!".

You guys are getting all philosophical, metaphorical and Greek on me. I understand open vs. concealed and LTC vs Constitutional carry better!!

Carry On!!

Abolt



Actually, Cato was a Roman not a Greek... :headbang1:

#36 Bud

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:13 PM

Garandfan asked why I like open carry. ... Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 454 Cassul ...
Posted Image


Okay, here's today's fun pool, winner take all:

Concealed Carry passes and Kurt is one of the very first to receive his license and promptly begins carrying his shooter around (see picture above)

For the win, pick the closes day to when Kurt realizes this is just freakin' ridiculous and packs it away and starts carrying a Ket Tec PT 32 in a pocket holster.

Posted Image

Edited by BudMan5, 14 March 2012 - 03:15 PM.

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#37 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:14 PM

Totally unrelated, but what is the symbolic "Carthage" per your signature line? Oppressive gun laws? General government Anti freedom laws? Chicago Democratic Political machine? Just curious.
[/quote]

Google is your friend!!
[/quote]
I don't think he is referring to Cato's speech but rather a job undone. They did actually destroy Carthage but it took a while
[/quote]


Naa Na Na Na Naaa Naaaaaa,, he WAS talking about Cato's speech!! Well, kinda, sorta.

OK, so "Carthage must be destroyed" is a metaphor for "We must keep fighting for the return of our right to keep and bear arms until we're successful!!".

You guys are getting all philosophical, metaphorical and Greek on me. I understand open vs. concealed and LTC vs Constitutional carry better!!

Carry On!!

Abolt
[/quote]

Feel free to translate "Carthago Delenda Est" into it's modern form, " Right to Carry Now ".
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#38 abolt243

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:14 PM


Naa Na Na Na Naaa Naaaaaa,, he WAS talking about Cato's speech!! Well, kinda, sorta.

OK, so "Carthage must be destroyed" is a metaphor for "We must keep fighting for the return of our right to keep and bear arms until we're successful!!".

You guys are getting all philosophical, metaphorical and Greek on me. I understand open vs. concealed and LTC vs Constitutional carry better!!

Carry On!!

Abolt



Actually, Cato was a Roman not a Greek... Posted Image


What is that saying?? "Better to remain silent and appear dumb rather than to speak and remove all doubt"?? That's my story now and I'm stickin' to it!
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#39 abolt243

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:19 PM



Okay, here's today's fun pool, winner take all:

Concealed Carry passes and Kurt is one of the very first to receive his license and promptly begins carrying his shooter around (see picture above)

For the win, pick the closes day to when Kurt realizes this is just freakin' ridiculous and packs it away and starts carrying a Ket Tec PT 32 in a pocket holster.

Posted Image


Answer: Never, cause Kurt is a dedicated big bore guy. Anyone that can touch off more than 4 of those in a day can certainly pack one around whenever and where ever he chooses!!

I'd like to shoot that baby someday. Just once though!

Tim
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#40 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:23 PM

Cato kept ending every speech with "Carthago Delenda Est" which eventually led Rome into the 3rd Punic War. Some say it was done just to shut up Cato.

If we use " Right to Carry Now " in the same way, it might just have the same effect. History does repeat itself.

* Carthago delenda est *
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#41 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:29 PM




Okay, here's today's fun pool, winner take all:

Concealed Carry passes and Kurt is one of the very first to receive his license and promptly begins carrying his shooter around (see picture above)

For the win, pick the closes day to when Kurt realizes this is just freakin' ridiculous and packs it away and starts carrying a Ket Tec PT 32 in a pocket holster.

Posted Image


Answer: Never, cause Kurt is a dedicated big bore guy. Anyone that can touch off more than 4 of those in a day can certainly pack one around whenever and where ever he chooses!!

I'd like to shoot that baby someday. Just once though!

Tim


I have a Kimber Super Carry Pro .45 for a "Sunday go to meeting" carry piece.

But, I'm 6'4", 265 lbs and have hands the size of bear paws. I can't even hold a .380 properly.

Tim is right. Big bore is for me.

* Carthago delenda est *
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#42 Xwing

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:50 PM

Google is your friend!!


I did google it. (Actually I wikipedia'd it.) I saw what it means, and I read Cato the Elder's use of it.. My question was what was the symbolic "Carthage" in modern times which must be destroyed.

Google would tell you what "Carthago delenda est" means, but that will leave you with "Carthage must be destroyed." What he's asking is whether Kurt is using Carthage as a metaphor for something in our own time, and if so, what?


Yes

Feel free to translate "Carthago Delenda Est" into it's modern form, " Right to Carry Now ".


Thank you. That was the answer to the question I was asking. (And for the record, I totally agree!)

Edited by Xwing, 14 March 2012 - 03:53 PM.

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#43 NakPPI

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:54 PM

Tim is right. Big bore is for me.


I'm sure that you would feel just fine with something like a CW 45 or an ultra lite 357 Mag... I am bigger than you and I still wouldn't dream of carrying a 454. Some one setup a pool for how long Kurt carries that 454. :D

Sent from my tactical multicam SCH-I500.

Edited by NakPPI, 14 March 2012 - 03:54 PM.

Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#44 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:05 PM


Tim is right. Big bore is for me.


I'm sure that you would feel just fine with something like a CW 45 or an ultra lite 357 Mag... I am bigger than you and I still wouldn't dream of carrying a 454. Some one setup a pool for how long Kurt carries that 454. :D

Sent from my tactical multicam SCH-I500.


Actually I have 3 *carry pieces. ( I have a lot more, but these are the 3 I generally carry )

  • The Ruger Alaskan
  • A Kimber Super Carry Pro .45
  • A Ruger LCR .38
It just depends on when and where and how I feel.

* Outside of Illinois.
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#45 willxjcherokee

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:14 PM

I can't wait to carry, better excuse to buy more goodies :D

#46 sirflyguy

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:16 PM



Tim is right. Big bore is for me.


I'm sure that you would feel just fine with something like a CW 45 or an ultra lite 357 Mag... I am bigger than you and I still wouldn't dream of carrying a 454. Some one setup a pool for how long Kurt carries that 454. :D

Sent from my tactical multicam SCH-I500.


Actually I have 3 *carry pieces. ( I have a lot more, but these are the 3 I generally carry )

  • The Ruger Alaskan
  • A Kimber Super Carry Pro .45
  • A Ruger LCR .38
It just depends on when and where and how I feel.

* Outside of Illinois.

A good belt, OWB holster, and a proper outer cover shirt would work comfortably for that big gun, would it not?

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#47 GarandFan

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:19 PM


Garandfan asked why I like open carry. ... Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 454 Cassul ...
Posted Image


Holy smokes! Talk about the right to "bear" arms!


"It's an .88 magnum. It shoots through schools!"


"It takes all the running you can do just to keep in the same place."
Lewis Carroll, 1872

#48 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:22 PM

[/quote]
A good belt, OWB holster, and a proper outer cover shirt would work comfortably for that big gun, would it not?
[/quote]

We will see when HB5745 passes and I am buying Todd a Heineken while having an iced tea for myself.

I'll let you know.

* Carthago delenda est *
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#49 vess1

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:42 PM

I laugh out loud when people talk about tactical advantages... Put away your mag pul dynamic art of whatever DVD. Nothing says freedom like an openly carried firearm. I guess all law enforcement and military have no tactical advantage huh?


I laughed out loud at this. I'll be the first to say there is NO tactical advantage to exposing the fact you are armed to the criminal element you may be up against. There is no comparison with your scenario. If you are the only one in a crowd openly carrying a weapon, you'll be the first to be shot before you even know there was a threat!

Open carry seems foolish to me and is meaningless to me. And I care about all of our rights more than most people. It's not about having more freedom than concealed carry. It IS about having a tactical advantage and not being the first killed in an event. This is not an issue I want to see the success of a carry bill hinged on. It doesn't help you. It's a bad idea. I'm just trying to be realistic. Not looking to restrict your rights for the fun of it. It's a minor issue. There's bigger fish to fry.

#50 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:07 PM

Vess1, open carry is very important to me and many others here. It isn't about tactical advantage, its about not being arrested which is far more likely than ever needing to use the carry piece in self defense.

HB5745 allows those of us that want to open carry do so when we feel it's appropriate. HB148 did not.

It also allows concealed carry.

I have my fingers crossed that HB5745 is the bill that turns into law.

* Carthago delenda est *
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#51 Davey

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:24 PM

Open carry would also prevent people from getting arrested simply because they bent the wrong way when they reached for the box of Lucky Charms at Walmart.

Edited by Davey, 14 March 2012 - 08:24 PM.


#52 kurt555gs

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:27 PM

Open carry would also prevent people from getting arrested simply because they bent the wrong way when they reached for the box of Lucky Charms at Walmart.


HB148 provided for that. "Concealed or partially concealed". It did not provide for purely open carry.
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#53 abolt243

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:27 PM

Open carry would also prevent people from getting arrested simply because they bent the wrong way when they reached for the box of Lucky Charms at Walmart.


HB148 also allows for that scenario.
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#54 miztic

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:07 PM

The more I hear, the more those people are starting to scare me. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

I thinik his reputation precedes him. The true anti's will NEVER support any kind of carry law, unless it's one that outlaws it completely. Don't ever kid yourself into thinking anything else. Their ultimate goal is to eliminate ALL FIREARMS, including law enforcement. See the London Bobbies and their little sticks.

AB


edit: quoting fail

Edited by miztic, 14 March 2012 - 10:09 PM.

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Anywhere you are able to carry a pen you should be able to carry a sidearm.

They hate guns so much, they are willing to risk the lives of large crowds and children to feel better with their 'gun free' zones.


#55 Davey

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:55 PM


Open carry would also prevent people from getting arrested simply because they bent the wrong way when they reached for the box of Lucky Charms at Walmart.


HB148 also allows for that scenario.


True however let's say one guys shirt rode up and got reported to the police. It'll then be up to them to decide whether or not it was brandishing. I would imagine not having full open carry would just make for muddy waters and potential headaches.

#56 Frank

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:38 AM

Omigosh! You guys are giving me a headache! Please, do me a favor. Read the bill!

Here. Click right here----> HB5745

Go ahead! Click on it. C'mon, you can do it...

And when you're done doing that, read HB148 also.

Instead of speculating, and guessing, and complaining about what someone else said is in the bill, please read it for yourself. This thread would be have about seventeen posts instead of ONE HUNDRED THIRTY-TWO AND COUNTING if you guys and gals would just read the bill. We're not going to pull a Nancy Pelosi and tell you we have to pass the bill in order to find out what's in the bill. READ THE BILL.

Please.

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#57 vezpa

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:08 AM

Last Year I fired a Ruger Super Redhawk Redhawk 2.5 inch barrel 454 Casull at Gat Guns that a guy in the next lane had brought. The first time I heard him fire it the other people at the range and myself looked over in disbelief when we heard how f'ing loud that hand cannon was. I have shot many .375s Magnums before and this was twice as loud and twice the gun that any of the .357s were. After emptying the cylinder the owner looked over he saw us all staring and asked us if we wanted to shoot it. I said yea and put 1 round downrange. I then sat the gun back down and will never touch a beast like that again. Unless you are walking through bear country I just can't see a need for a gun like that, let alone one for CCW. Good god was that thing a monster. It wasn't even fun to shoot and I saw later that ammo costs a ton. I don't think that a semi-crowded indoor range is the place to shoot a monster like that because it literally made all the others shooters jump. To each their own I guess, but I wonder what would happen if you needed to explain to LE why you needed a 454 Casull for CCW. I know you can use whatever you want, I just think its not the wisest decision.

If a Ruger is your bag, you can get a nice little .357 to handle your CCW needs much better. Gives you an excuse to buy another gun anyway. :D

SP101
Posted Image

Edited by vezpa, 15 March 2012 - 02:09 AM.

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#58 chip

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:33 AM

Last Year I fired a Ruger Super Redhawk Redhawk 2.5 inch barrel 454 Casull at Gat Guns that a guy in the next lane had brought. The first time I heard him fire it the other people at the range and myself looked over in disbelief when we heard how f'ing loud that hand cannon was. I have shot many .375s Magnums before and this was twice as loud and twice the gun that any of the .357s were. After emptying the cylinder the owner looked over he saw us all staring and asked us if we wanted to shoot it. I said yea and put 1 round downrange. I then sat the gun back down and will never touch a beast like that again. Unless you are walking through bear country I just can't see a need for a gun like that, let alone one for CCW. Good god was that thing a monster. It wasn't even fun to shoot and I saw later that ammo costs a ton. I don't think that a semi-crowded indoor range is the place to shoot a monster like that because it literally made all the others shooters jump. To each their own I guess, but I wonder what would happen if you needed to explain to LE why you needed a 454 Casull for CCW. I know you can use whatever you want, I just think its not the wisest decision.

If a Ruger is your bag, you can get a nice little .357 to handle your CCW needs much better. Gives you an excuse to buy another gun anyway. :D

SP101
Posted Image


I think this is a dangerous road to go down. Deciding what handgun caliber is appropriate for CCW is very much like the crooks in Chicago asking why anyone would need a handgun for protection when they have a tongue depressor available. I know you're on our side, but this is the road that leads to "all you really need is a single shot .22". Just as each citizen is free to choose how much auto, fire, or life insurance they need....they should be free to choose whatever caliber handgun they feel is appropriate to defend their lives and their families lives. For one guy it might be a .22, for another a .50 magnum. I don't want to restrict any law abiding citizen from carrying what they feel is required. That said, I do advocate training and competency with whatever firearm is chosen. I really think there should be a requirement for holster proficiency. I've seen too many people have a negligent discharge trying to get a gun out of a holster....and I've seen videos of people shooting themselves while drawing from a holster. Ok, I'll stop here before I go too far off this thread. As for HB5745, I like that those with military, police, and training backgrounds don't have to jump through any extra hoops, but I think the minimum 4 hour requirement is a little too lax.

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#59 abolt243

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:03 AM



Open carry would also prevent people from getting arrested simply because they bent the wrong way when they reached for the box of Lucky Charms at Walmart.


HB148 also allows for that scenario.


True however let's say one guys shirt rode up and got reported to the police. It'll then be up to them to decide whether or not it was brandishing. I would imagine not having full open carry would just make for muddy waters and potential headaches.


Take a breath Davey. First of all, both bills define a concealed handgun as concealed or MOSTLY concealed. That allows for an occasional flash or even for a gun that's in an IWB and is 51% covered. Secondly, every definition of brandishing that I've ever read in any laws say that the person has to actually HOLD the gun and move it in a threatening manner. Your shirt riding up doesn't qualify.

Sheesh, paranoid and the bill has not even been debated on the floor yet. Take Frank's advice, follow his links and READ THE BILLS. Print them off, side by side and go through them line by line.

Just relax folks, it's a long way from becoming the law of the land.

Abolt
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#60 lockman

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:33 AM

There is no general tactical advantage to CC over OC. Otherwise I could claim tactical advantage of OC because of the easier access and quicker draw. Tactical advantage is not a factor when you are not carrying at all because it is too hot and humid for an additional cover garment. It is more personal choice based on specific circumstance.

Whether the bill allows one or both I will still support it. Then work to eliminate the need for it. In the meantime more people will have a legal means of armed self defense in public placed, albeit a licensed privilege.
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