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#91 C0untZer0

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:01 AM

I'm sure we all have horror story examples of dumb people we've seen at the range.

There is the store clerk Bandar Abu-Karsh in Ohio who chases a robber out of his store and continues to chase him down the street firing at him (and missing)

The guy who claims his Ruger just went off in a Walmart bathroom - he needs firearms potty training.

The YouTube "Safety Check" drives me nuts.

I don't know if Nut N Fancy started this or who - or what.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always done my safety check by

1) Dropping the magazine

2) Locking the bolt or slide to the rear

3) Visually inspecting the chamber to ensure there is no round

On YouTube these guys with their Glocks... they rack the slide five or six times fast and declare it safe. They do it so fast - there's no way they can see into the chamber. They are betting the farm on the extractor working, and what it doesn't?

I think those YouTube safety checks are an acccident waiting to happen. They don't visually inspect the chamber. They go through this frenetic super-fast cycling of the slide, declare it safe and pull the trigger.

They all need training as far as I'm concerned.
‘Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive...those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.‘
- C. S. Lewis

#92 xmikex

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:03 PM

This thread has drifted FAR beyond where it should be...

I'm a training junkie and I think there's a lot of people that simply don't know what they don't know about carrying and using a firearm in self defense and the related aftermath of taking a human life...

HOWEVER, in my perfect world there would be no training requirements - just like there are no training requirements for buying a printer, computer, bullhorn or poster making supplies.

Are we going to have a training requirement in IL? Yep.
Will any state training requirement be woefully inadequate in preparing people for CCW? Yep.
Will I support the any shall-issue CCW bill in IL? Oh heck yes.

Are either of the CCW bills perfect? NO - but perfect is the enemy of good enough. We can get perfect later.
"I may disapprove of what arms you bear, but I will defend to the death your right to remain armed." -xmikex

#93 abolt243

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:35 PM

Samy and es503,

C'mon guys. PM's.

AB
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#94 es503IL

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:03 PM

Sorry... Thought I had sent that in a PM. Oops...

#95 samy12386

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 07:50 PM

I never posted a comment that should have gone in PM, someone mearly felt the sudden urge to send me information that probably could have been done in PM
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#96 bob

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:28 AM

The history of self defense shootings seems to include a whole bunch of people who successfully defended themselves who it seems likely had very little or no formal training.

I am a fan of getting at least some formal training, but it does not seem to me that requiring an expensive training course to engage in a constitutionally protected activity is truly constitutional. OTOH, that is the way most states have headed that have LTC, and most people in those states seem to have accepted the idea that expensive licenses and expensive training requirements are acceptable to them.

It may become a moot point over time as more and more states embrace the idea that no license is required to carry, concealed or otherwise and fewer people accept that there is any need for either licenses or training requirements.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

The opinions expressed by this poster do not reflect the official stance of Illinois Carry. Apparently there was some confusion on the part of at least one person that it does, and I want to make things clear that my opinion is my own and that whatever the official stance of IC is or is not at present, it may or may not reflect my own opinion.

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#97 kurt555gs

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:49 PM

Wisconsin recognizes my PA permit with no finger prints or training, but does not recognize my FL permit that required finger prints, class room, and live fire training. Go figure?

* Carthago delenda est *
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#98 sctman800

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 02:01 PM

Wisconsin recognizes my PA permit with no finger prints or training, but does not recognize my FL permit that required finger prints, class room, and live fire training. Go figure?

* Carthago delenda est *




I am not positive but I think the problem is the 7 year license from Florida. As a general rule the more training requirements the more states that will recognize it. Jim.
Kristofferson wrote it and Janis sang it "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

#99 samy12386

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 06:24 PM

Government funded firearm training for low income families!!! Now that's a welfare bill I might have to support.... :rolleyes:
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#100 Will S.

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:52 PM

Wisconsin recognizes my PA permit with no finger prints or training, but does not recognize my FL permit that required finger prints, class room, and live fire training. Go figure?

* Carthago delenda est *


I actually wrote them about their reciprocity and asked why they don't accept FL. The reason is because Florida does a background check but does not do a NICS. That is the foundation for their reciprocity. Without the NICS they won't accept the license.

#101 samy12386

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:16 AM


Wisconsin recognizes my PA permit with no finger prints or training, but does not recognize my FL permit that required finger prints, class room, and live fire training. Go figure?

* Carthago delenda est *


I actually wrote them about their reciprocity and asked why they don't accept FL. The reason is because Florida does a background check but does not do a NICS. That is the foundation for their reciprocity. Without the NICS they won't accept the license.


I was always under the impression that a FBI check using fingerprints was more in depth than NICS is that not correct?
SEMPER FI

#102 Buzzard

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:28 PM

Here is a E-Mail I received today from the National Gun Rights .org, very critical of HB 5745. Any Opinions?


This thread started out asking for opinions on an email that was sent to DHan. And most all people that understood the bill, as it is written agreed - that the email was nothing more than an alarmist spamming for contributions from anyone that might take the bait. Unfortunately, it appears that some here did.

This thread has run it's course and served it's purpose.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes,
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

#103 willxjcherokee

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:40 PM



Here is a E-Mail I received today from the National Gun Rights .org, very critical of HB 5745. Any Opinions?


This thread started out asking for opinions on an email that was sent to DHan. And most all people that understood the bill, as it is written agreed - that the email was nothing more than an alarmist spamming for contributions from anyone that might take the bait. Unfortunately, it appears that some here did.

This thread has run it's course and served it's purpose.

I agree I even got caught up in it..
let it die and lets start a new one to contact and rally!

#104 Bud

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:18 AM

And yes, this conversation has veered off topic, but is it not useful? Do we not care about learning more about the practice of self defense and living in a world with predators? We're the most gung ho group about it and yet we don't want to talk about what's smart on the street and what may not be?


Don't disagree with you but the OC/CC discussion probably deserves its own thread where people who are interested in that discussion would find it by the subject title. I have no interest in that at all but I am interested in the HB 5745 discussion.
Bud



"The lesson this teaches and which every Afro-American should ponder well, is that a Winchester rifle should have a place of honor in every black home"

Ida B. Wells 1862-1931


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#105 KingWalleye

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:48 AM

Budman and Jeckler are right. This thing has run off the tracks a bit.

The best way to get this bill passed is to get out and vote today for candidates that support rtc in Illinois.

#106 C0untZer0

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:22 AM

I am in the position of having a number of pro-gun candidates to choose from, who haven't been graded by the NRA and generally answered our survey in the affirmative.

I guess in a sense it's nice that I can evaluate them on other issues and not just Second Amendment, on the other hand - I want the most effective representaive to be in the house and I'm not really sure who that is.
‘Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive...those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.‘
- C. S. Lewis

#107 lockman

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:06 AM


And yes, this conversation has veered off topic, but is it not useful? Do we not care about learning more about the practice of self defense and living in a world with predators? We're the most gung ho group about it and yet we don't want to talk about what's smart on the street and what may not be?


Don't disagree with you but the OC/CC discussion probably deserves its own thread where people who are interested in that discussion would find it by the subject title. I have no interest in that at all but I am interested in the HB 5745 discussion.


I agree. The HB 5745 updates and call to arms about it should be separate. Discussion about the contents of HB 5745 should be kept general and specifics dealt with in a PM.

Forgive me for I have strayed.
"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1776

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#108 Molly B.

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:56 PM

OC/CC debate posts have been split off into their own topic. In doing so another 30-45 minutes of my life have slipped away, never to be seen again. Please guys, please try to stay on topic.



Please?
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#109 boog

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:40 AM

2 more co-sponsors were added yesterday and 1 was a D
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#110 abolt243

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:30 AM

2 more co-sponsors were added yesterday and 1 was a D
Boog



35 sponsors, half enough to pass it with a Super.

8 Dems.

Cool.
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#111 scough

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:00 AM

How many sponsors did we have for HB0148?

#112 Drylok

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:13 AM

How many sponsors did we have for HB0148?


Looks like about 51
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks"
-Thomas Jefferson-

Now two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red, the white, the blue. The other ones got a rattle snake with a simple statement made, don't tread on me, is what it says and I'll take that to my grave
-Aaron Lewis-

#113 boog

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:17 AM

someone correct me if my math is wrong, but the way I calculate it we need 12 more Dem's to sign on or vote yes because we know 2 Rep's will vote know. Does this sound right?
boog

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#114 abolt243

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:40 AM

someone correct me if my math is wrong, but the way I calculate it we need 12 more Dem's to sign on or vote yes because we know 2 Rep's will vote know. Does this sound right?
boog


Mathematically you may be right. We'll know for sure when the lights on the big board start lighting up. Until then, it's all speculation. Case in point, the vote on HB148 last year.

T
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#115 es503IL

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:12 PM

John E. Bradley (D - Marion, 117th District) signed on today as a co-sponser.

He was a "Yes" on HB148.

Edited by es503IL, 22 March 2012 - 01:14 PM.


#116 scough

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:15 PM

do we actually have a listing of the co-sponsors of both bills? It would be interesting to see if we have any new faces on HB5745 that did not co-sponsor HB0148. Even more importantly, if we have converted any Nays.

#117 abolt243

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:17 PM

do we actually have a listing of the co-sponsors of both bills? It would be interesting to see if we have any new faces on HB5745 that did not co-sponsor HB0148. Even more importantly, if we have converted any Nays.


You can access that information at ILGA.gov.

stand by, i'll get youa link.

Here, bookmark this link. ILGA

Go exploring there. click on Bills and Resolutions for listing of bills, their history and sponsors/cosponsors.

Lots of info there
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#118 scough

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:44 PM

On second thought, similar to the HB0148 & BH5745 differences, I'm not sure it makes sense to contrast and post this either.

#119 Drylok

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:47 PM

On second thought, similar to the HB0148 & BH5745 differences, I'm not sure it makes sense to contrast and post this either.

Eh it doesn't really matter because it's public info. Anyone can look it up on ILGA and it's on the very main page when you plug in a bill. It's no secret
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks"
-Thomas Jefferson-

Now two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red, the white, the blue. The other ones got a rattle snake with a simple statement made, don't tread on me, is what it says and I'll take that to my grave
-Aaron Lewis-

#120 scough

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:14 PM

Ok then, we have 3 new sponsors that on onboard for HB5745 that did not sponsor HB0148:

Eddie Lee Jackson, Sr., Raymond Poe, and Scott E. Penny.

Not sure how they voted on HB0148 without a link to that scoreboard photo, but I believe they all voted in favor.

We do however have 16 that Co-Sponsored HB0148 that have no yet signed on to HB5745. I suspect they will soon, but it's good to see 3 new Co-Sponsors this time around.

I can't wait for the first Nayer to come on board. That will be reason to celebrate!