28 replies to this topic

[PrimePorkchop]

Hello Everyone,

I've been told that you guys are the go-to guys where Illinois Gun Laws are concerned, and so i'm here to see if you could give me your interpretation on the FOID act as it applies to the sale of ammunition to non-illinois residents.  I've done quite a bit of research on this, but I am by no means an expert, nor am I trying to pretend to be.  I have found what I believe to be a clear cut definition in Illinois Law, im just after a second opinion that I know can be trusted.

A quick back story is that i'm a member of another gun forum, and one of our members there is a resident of Wisconsin.  He went to Bass Pro Shops in Gurnee, IL one day to buy some ammunition (he lives right on the border).  He's done this many times before, but this occasion they actually refused to sell it to him, telling him it was because he was not a resident of Illinois, and they're not allowed to sell ammunition to anyone who does not have a FOID card.

So this instance triggered an investigation by many of us, and lots of contact with Bass Pro Shops in general.  What we've come to find out is that Bass Pro Shops does have an official policy (apparently, it's a new policy) that says they will not sell to anyone who does not have a FOID card, and they're claiming that it's because Illinois State Law requires it.  The proof they provide is an e-mail from an Illinois State Police officer that had contacted them telling them not to do it.  This is the email from Mr. Whiteley with Bass Pro Shops corporate, where he references the email from the ISP:

Quote

Thank you for your e-mail and I thank you for standing up for our 2nd amendment rights as we have always done and will continue to do.
In regards to gun policies at our stores, our company policy is to follow the gun laws in the state in which that store is in as they vary across the country.
Below is what we have been told by the Illinois State Police;

Residents of bordering states can purchase long guns and ammo.
Inter-changeable ammo such as 9MM for long guns and hand guns is okay, if
the customer is purchasing at same time as firearm purchase. Nothing in
writing stating that, use your best judgment. Better not to sell 9MM,
7.62MM to non-residents, impossible to determine their use. Same applies
to those not from bordering states, if they purchase a non-resident hunting
license first for long guns or ammo. No hand gun ammo in Illinois for
non-residents. Be all that you can be!
----- Forwarded by Mark Marston/IlStPolice on 10/05/2011 12:28 PM -----

Larry L. Whiteley
Bass Pro Shops/Tracker Marine
Manager of Communications
lwhiteley@basspro.com
417-873-5022

So, I found it interesting that they quoted an Illinois State Police officer instead of Illinois Law its self, so I went digging.  Just for ease of reference, i've only included what I believe to be the important parts of the law.  The full law, as its written, can be viewed HERE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PUBLIC SAFETY
(430 ILCS 65/) Firearm Owners Identification Card Act.

(430 ILCS 65/2) (from Ch. 38, par. 83-2)

Sec. 2. Firearm Owner's Identification Card required; exceptions
(a) (1) No person may acquire or possess any firearm, stun gun, or taser within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.

    (2) No person may acquire or possess firearm ammunition within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.

( B ) The provisions of this Section regarding the possession of firearms, firearm ammunition, stun guns, and tasers do not apply to:

...[numbers ( 1 ) through ( 8 ) have been truncated]

( 9 ) Nonresidents whose firearms are unloaded and enclosed in a case;

( 10 ) Nonresidents who are currently licensed or registered to possess a firearm in their resident state;



....[numbers ( 11 ) through ( 16 ) truncated] section C has also been removed since it does not apply


(430 ILCS 65/3) (from Ch. 38, par. 83-3)


    Sec. 3. (a) Except as provided in Section 3a, no person may knowingly transfer, or cause to be transferred, any firearm, firearm ammunition, stun gun, or taser to any person within this State unless the transferee with whom he deals displays a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card which has previously been issued in his name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act. In addition, all firearm, stun gun, and taser transfers by federally licensed firearm dealers are subject to Section 3.1.

( a-5 ) Any person who is not a federally licensed firearm dealer and who desires to transfer or sell a firearm while that person is on the grounds of a gun show must, before selling or transferring the firearm, request the Department of State Police to conduct a background check on the prospective recipient of the firearm in accordance with Section 3.1.

( B ) Any person within this State who transfers or causes to be transferred any firearm, stun gun, or taser shall keep a record of such transfer for a period of 10 years from the date of transfer. Such record shall contain the date of the transfer; the description, serial number or other information identifying the firearm, stun gun, or taser if no serial number is available; and, if the transfer was completed within this State, the transferee's Firearm Owner's Identification Card number. On or after January 1, 2006, the record shall contain the date of application for transfer of the firearm. On demand of a peace officer such transferor shall produce for inspection such record of transfer. If the transfer or sale took place at a gun show, the record shall include the unique identification number. Failure to record the unique identification number is a petty offense.

( b-5 ) Any resident may purchase ammunition from a person outside of Illinois. Any resident purchasing ammunition outside the State of Illinois must provide the seller with a copy of his or her valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card and either his or her Illinois driver's license or Illinois State Identification Card prior to the shipment of the ammunition. The ammunition may be shipped only to an address on either of those 2 documents.

( c ) The provisions of this Section regarding the transfer of firearm ammunition shall not apply to those persons specified in paragraph ( B ) of Section 2 of this Act.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, as I read this, it's saying that anyone who is not a resident of Illinois, but that meets the "exemptions" requirements outlined in Section 2, paragraph b, most notably #9 and #10 is legally allowed to come into the state and purchase ammunition.  So in other words, my friend from WI could have presented his CCP as proof that he's legally allowed to purchase ammunition, or if he didn't have that on him, he could have brought in any firearm that was unloaded and in a case as proof?

I've been in contact at great length with more than one official at Bass Pro Shops, but most notably Mr. Whiteley, and he's been great so far, trying to figure things out, but i'm still curious to see what other, more intelligent and experienced people have to say about this, the information i've presented to Bass Pro Shops as proof that their policy has to go, because it's not required by Illinois State Law.

Anyone have any insight?  Anything at all would be most appreciated.

Edited by PrimePorkchop, 12 March 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[hunterdale]

A resident of Wisconsin is not required to have a FOID card, that wonderful piece of identification is "reserved" for us Illinois residents.  He can purchase ammo with a DL or any other type of picture ID, actually I'm not sure he/she even has to show ID.  On the other hand, when I purchase ammo/firearms in another state they can require me to show my FOID card as an Illinois resident.  BPS is way off on this one as well as the ISP.  I have friends from Indiana that goose and duck hunt here and they buy ammo in Illinois when necessary, no questions asked.  Just going from experience and I never saw any change in a law requiring other states residents to have an Illinois FOID card.

[Uncle Harley]

they tried that chit with my buddies brother from misouri.   He was comming home and  found a sweet deal on some 9mm at a walmart or something.   THey told him they couldn't sell it to him because he didn't have a non resident hunting license.   He said WTF am I going to hunt with 9mm  in IL?     The way I read the law BP is in the wrong.  but I am  not a lawyer. Did you show them the statute?

[Uncle Harley]

and while you are at it,  tell the Bass Pro rep that every airsoft gun he sells with out  requiring a FOID ,a background check and waiting period  he is in violation because they don't meet the exemption for the deffinition of  a firearm by IL law. They don't meet both requirements of less than .18 dia and less than 700fts.   My rep is trying to change that though, You can see for yourself here.


http://ilga.gov/legi...=84&LegID=63317


He is trying to make so it only has to meet one of the stipulations instead of both to be exemp from being a firearm.


Now I said this, just to prove that  they don't know what the law actually is.   You should forward it to him  just for chits and giggles and see if they pull airsoft guns  LOL

[PrimePorkchop]

Uncle Harley, on 12 March 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

they tried that chit with my buddies brother from misouri.   He was comming home and  found a sweet deal on some 9mm at a walmart or something.   THey told him they couldn't sell it to him because he didn't have a non resident hunting license.   He said WTF am I going to hunt with 9mm  in IL?     The way I read the law BP is in the wrong.  but I am  not a lawyer. Did you show them the statute?

Yes, I showed them the statute, as well as my opinion on what it says... he did get back to me today.  We've been talking for a while now, but we're finally getting some headway:

Quote

Good to hear from you Brandon, and sorry hadn’t got back to you sooner but I have been off work fighting the flu.

We do have a legal team working on it and will get back with you as soon as we hear what is determined. I got them what you sent me.

Of course as we have said all along we want to be able to sell this ammunition and hope to get this straightened out real soon.

This gray area is so confusing there were several Illinois gun businesses that were not selling to out of state customers, Cabela’s main offices said their stores were not supposed to be selling and they are checking into it, Wal-Mart stores were but their home office is checking with their lawyers to make sure they weren’t in the wrong.

Between our legal team, Wal-Mart’s legal team, and Cabela’s legal team hopefully we can go back to selling it again.



Larry L. Whiteley
Bass Pro Shops/Tracker Marine
Manager of Communications
lwhiteley@basspro.com
417-873-5022

I still don't understand how he considers it "Gray Area" as it seems quite clear cut to me, but I commend BPS for at least having a legal team looking at it (though I wish they had done it much sooner, instead of taking a LEO's word for it)

I'm just not going to stop just yet, i'm still seeking out information on the topic...and i'm bracing myself for their lawyers to come back with "Ya know what?  TECHNICALLY we could sell it, but it'd be safer not to" ... but I hope otherwise ... hope for the best plan for the worst.

Edited by PrimePorkchop, 12 March 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Uncle Harley]

if they pass this stupid tax,  we'll all be crossing the border to buy ammo anyways!

[Bud]

You would think that a corporate giant like Bass ProShops would have the basic intelligence to check with the Illinois Attorney General's Office for a definitive ruling on any issue affecting sales.

Taking the word of an Illinois State Trooper about anything to do with Illinois law is asinine.

This appears to me to be an individual store manager having his position as a result of direct appolication of Dr. Peter's principle concerning management potential.

[PrimePorkchop]

That is INSANE that they did that to airsoft.  This state has some seriously weird laws.

Gun Control isn't about guns.  It's about control.  This law proves it.

[abolt243]

BudMan5, on 12 March 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

You would think that a corporate giant like Bass ProShops would have the basic intelligence to check with the Illinois Attorney General's Office for a definitive ruling on any issue affecting sales.

Taking the word of an Illinois State Trooper about anything to do with Illinois law is asinine.

This appears to me to be an individual store manager having his position as a result of direct appolication of Dr. Peter's principle concerning management potential.

And this from a retired LEO!!

[PrimePorkchop]

and the thing that disturbs me most about the State LEO's words are when he says "You never know what their intention is" which, to me, suggests that he's taking an official stance that says all out-of-staters are guilty until proven innocent.

Seems counter-productive to the spirit of the law.

Kind of angering that someone in Law Enforcement could take such a stand on both fronts:  Spreading misinformation that only helps gun-haters in this state AND saying "Dont sell to him, even though its legal, you never know what he's up to"

[Uncle Harley]

PrimePorkchop, on 12 March 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

and the thing that disturbs me most about the State LEO's words are when he says "You never know what their intention is" which, to me, suggests that he's taking an official stance that says all out-of-staters are guilty until proven innocent.

Seems counter-productive to the spirit of the law.

Kind of angering that someone in Law Enforcement could take such a stand on both fronts:  Spreading misinformation that only helps gun-haters in this state AND saying "Dont sell to him, even though its legal, you never know what he's up to"

Don't think so highly of yourslef,  they think we are all criminals too!

Edit:   you are new here you might not reconise my sarcasm.  THis ^ was said in jest

Edited by Uncle Harley, 12 March 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[PrimePorkchop]

Uncle Harley, on 12 March 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Don't think so highly of yourslef,  they think we are all criminals too!

Edit:   you are new here you might not reconise my sarcasm.  THis ^ was said in jest

LOL i'm glad you clarified...as I was reading that word by word I was like "whoah...where am I?" LOL!

But you're right.  They do think that about us - why else would there be such frivolous, pointless, controlling laws on the books, poorly written by the the lowest common denominator?

[Howard Roark]

Yesterday I was in the Bolingbrook Illinois Bass Pro Shop checking out a new shotgun for bustin' clays.   A man with his son (about 12 years old) told the sales person he wanted to purchase an air-rifle, gesturing to the isle "over there".  The sales person said that a FOID was required and asked to see the FOIDs for the man and his son.  That was the end of that harmless sale, a needless loss for Bass Pro Shop.  As long as the air rifle is less than 700 feet-per-second velocity, sale is legal to a person over 21 (maybe the age is 18, I'm not sure).   In front of the sales person, I said that wasn't correct and that he could buy an air-rifle at WalMart without a FOID.  The man left, the boy didn't get his air-rifle, at least not at Bass Pro.

Seems there are problems in properly training the sales staff at Cabelas, Bass Pro, and probably a bunch of other gun stores.  It's too bad, and they lose revenue due to their ignorance.

Oh, any non-prohibited (non criminal, not declared insane) adult can legally buy ammo in Illinois, usually they just have to show out-of-state ID (driver's license).

[vezpa]

It's stuff liek this that makes you realize that no matter what CCW laws pass in Illinois, our state will still be one messed up place.

[PrimePorkchop]

vezpa, on 12 March 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

It's stuff liek this that makes you realize that no matter what CCW laws pass in Illinois, our state will still be one messed up place.

Exactly right.  This is why I make it my mission every day to get as many people I can interested in keeping their rights.  It's amazing how many people that own a firearm, but know absolutely nothing about their rights, and how threatened those rights are.  Most people just blindly recite the 2nd amendment, and have no idea how big of a target it actually is, thereby setting on their asses come voting day.

If every gun owner in Illinois would vote for pro-2nd amendment candidates every single election, Illinois would be completely fixed in 4 years (as far as gun laws go).

Firearms owners *are* the majority...but unfortunately few of us are choosing to speak our minds..and policies like the ones at BPS are making it even harder to get ahead

[Howard Roark]

I will call to the store manager (especially the firearms department manager) on Tuesday and report back here.  It's my duty, I should have done it at the time, but the store was busy and so was I.

edit: change spelling of "story" to "store.

Edited by Howard Roark, 12 March 2012 - 11:11 PM.

[Glock21]

PrimePorkchop, on 12 March 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

and the thing that disturbs me most about the State LEO's words are when he says "You never know what their intention is" which, to me, suggests that he's taking an official stance that says all out-of-staters are guilty until proven innocent.

Seems counter-productive to the spirit of the law.

Kind of angering that someone in Law Enforcement could take such a stand on both fronts:  Spreading misinformation that only helps gun-haters in this state AND saying "Dont sell to him, even though its legal, you never know what he's up to"

...as if you know the "intention" of a person with a FOID card.

[RANDY]

Uncle Harley, on 12 March 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

and while you are at it,  tell the Bass Pro rep that every airsoft gun he sells with out  requiring a FOID ,a background check and waiting period  he is in violation because they don't meet the exemption for the deffinition of  a firearm by IL law. They don't meet both requirements of less than .18 dia and less than 700fts.   My rep is trying to change that though, You can see for yourself here.


http://ilga.gov/legi...=84&LegID=63317


He is trying to make so it only has to meet one of the stipulations instead of both to be exemp from being a firearm.


Now I said this, just to prove that  they don't know what the law actually is.   You should forward it to him  just for chits and giggles and see if they pull airsoft guns  LOL

Illinois is still in violation of the federal commerce act 15 USC 5001  subsection g " no state or municipality shall prohibit the sale of traditional air-guns, bb guns, pellets guns etc".

http://www.gpo.gov/f...p76-sec5001.pdf

[Xwing]

From my understanding (IANAL), the store's policy is much more restrictive than the law. He is talking about rules for purchasing firearms, not merely firearm ammunition.  (e.g. sale of handgun from FFL in one state  private citizen in another state is disallowed.  And sale of long gun from FFL in one state  private citizen in another state is allowed only if the 2 states share a border.)  Ammo should be perfectly legal from FFL --> Legal citizen in any state. But they do have the right to make ridiculous store policy, if they prefer. Hopefully you will have luck in convincing them to just follow the law instead of making up additional ones.

[Federal Farmer]

A guy I work with commutes from Michigan and he's been denied ammo purchasing in 3 places in Bloomington, Dick's, Walmart, and even the local gun shop/range Darnalls.  I know Ron and Sue Darnall pretty well and they are totally pro-gun.  I'm going to speak to them about it as well as another Bloomington gun shop own I know.  I work with guys who commute from MI, AZ, MO and GA.

[Patriots & Tyrants]

Funny thing because on the flip side I buy ammo in Ohio and Wisconsin all the time...most of the time the Clerk behind the counter does not know enough to even ask for my FOID card. Never had a LGS try that stuff on my brother in law from Ohio though, will have to see if it comes up next time he is in town.

Edited by Patriots & Tyrants, 13 March 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[Robeman1957]

You would expect and hope that for $87,000 a year a trooper would know the laws that they are sworn to enforce.

http://databases.sj-...h/?name=marston

[PrimePorkchop]

Robeman1957, on 13 March 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

You would expect and hope that for $87,000 a year a trooper would know the laws that they are sworn to enforce.

http://databases.sj-...h/?name=marston

that's my thought as well.  A few of us have sent inquiries to the Illinois State Police, but so far no response as to where Officer Marston gets his information.  I'm not going to hold my breath, I quite imagine it'll get ignored until the end of time.

[Blacksmith58]

Go to CheaperThanDirt.com or MidwayUSA, get registered as a member with them, scan and attach you current FOID Card and Drivers License, send it to them in an E-mail. Call them to make sure they received them and validate your data within their system, then order, pay for and recieve all the ammo you care to buy or can afford to buy. Not an issue, no sales tax and they both have reasonable shipping rates!!! Just do it! It's easy and legal! Done & Done!

Edited by Blacksmith58, 14 March 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[PrimePorkchop]

Blacksmith58, on 14 March 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Go to CheaperThanDirt.com or MidwayUSA, get registered as a member with them, scan and attach you current FOID Card and Drivers License, send it to them in an E-mail. Call them to make sure they received them and validate your data within their system, then order, pay for and recieve all the ammo you care to buy or can afford to buy. Not an issue, no sales tax and they both have reasonable shipping rates!!! Just do it! It's easy and legal! Done & Done!

Yeah, I buy from CTD all the time, but in this case, it's not about who I want to have my money =)  It's about proving to BPS that they are, surprisingly, creating policies that are MORE STRICT than Illinois State law (which is awe inspiring if you think about it, LOL)

[JR1987]

I can't speak on the legality, but I have personally seen citizens from other states denied the opportunity to purchase ammo. So it isn't totally uncommon, but I live up near Chicago. The worst incident was this:

A man from Michigan came in to a range to shoot with his friend. He was going to buy ammo to shoot at the range, but the man behind the desk said "unless you have a FOID you can't". To this the mans friend with the FOID said "I got this and you can pay me back". The man behind the desk promptly threatened to kick the two of them out saying it was a straw purchase.

I don't buy my ammo here; I go over the border to Cabella's.

Like I said, I can't speak on the legality, but I've seen it happen on 3 occasions.

Edited by JR1987, 15 March 2012 - 03:08 PM.

[PrimePorkchop]

JR1987, on 15 March 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Like I said, I can't speak on the legality, but I've seen it happen on 3 occasions.

Well, im not a lawyer, but I have read the FOID statute, and while that range owner has the legal right to refuse to sell to anyone he wishes, he is not under legal obligation as far as 3 exemptions are concerned in FOID law.

That's the unfortunate part about this whole argument - too many people who are in positions to do something about this, are too willfully ignorant to what the law says, and are too eager to appease liberal gun grabbers from Chicago and "get in their good graces"

It's sleeping with the enemy and it's disgusting.

[TFC]

PrimePorkchop, on 17 March 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

JR1987, on 15 March 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Like I said, I can't speak on the legality, but I've seen it happen on 3 occasions.

Well, im not a lawyer, but I have read the FOID statute, and while that range owner has the legal right to refuse to sell to anyone he wishes, he is not under legal obligation as far as 3 exemptions are concerned in FOID law.

That's the unfortunate part about this whole argument - too many people who are in positions to do something about this, are too willfully ignorant to what the law says, and are too eager to appease liberal gun grabbers from Chicago and "get in their good graces"

It's sleeping with the enemy and it's disgusting.

Or don't have the money to take the state to court.

[PrimePorkchop]

TFC, on 17 March 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

PrimePorkchop, on 17 March 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

JR1987, on 15 March 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Like I said, I can't speak on the legality, but I've seen it happen on 3 occasions.

Well, im not a lawyer, but I have read the FOID statute, and while that range owner has the legal right to refuse to sell to anyone he wishes, he is not under legal obligation as far as 3 exemptions are concerned in FOID law.

That's the unfortunate part about this whole argument - too many people who are in positions to do something about this, are too willfully ignorant to what the law says, and are too eager to appease liberal gun grabbers from Chicago and "get in their good graces"

It's sleeping with the enemy and it's disgusting.

Or don't have the money to take the state to court.

If we were talking about Joe Schmoes Ammo Emporium, I would agree with you.

We're talking about Bass Pro Shops.  A billion dollar corporation.