Which is better the 45 or 9mm

[Uncle Harley]

Ok I know this is going to start a pizzin match, we have all heard that a 9mm might or might not expand but a 45 doesn't shrink. This answer is not acceptable, I wan't evidence to back up your claim that the 45 is the superior round, NOW before you answer please check out this link

 

http://gunwriter.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/9mm-luger-vs-45-auto/

 

As some have stated in the comments, the believe ( as do I ) that most of this "knowledge" that the 45 is superior is based off of old military tests where they were using ball ammo. That is a no brainer! OF COURSE 45 FMJ is superior to 9mm FMJ we are talking about current production self defense rounds.

 

 

I give the edge to 9mm and here are my reasons.

 

1. the link above is one of MANY tests that show the difference between 9mm and 45 in the jell is so minimal that where the 9mm lacks here it makes up for in other areas.

 

2. Higher capacity mags at a reduced weight.

 

3. smaller and THINNER which gives more carry options.

 

4. affordability!

 

Now I expect a spirited debate however, I do NOT want this to turn into a pizzing match like my 22 mag poll did. It's the end of hump day let's have some fun!

[I Hate Gunlaws]

I'm going with the .45, but I'll let this link stand as my argument: http://www.gunthorp....0a%20morgue.htm

 

It's a pretty lengthy yet interesting read (and a combination of 25 pages or so of posts on the Smith & Wesson forum... so a little erratic at times), from a guy who sees terminal velocity on much more than just ballistics gel... he works in a morgue.

[blueliner]

I like the 9mm because I fit more rounds in the magazine of a 9mm, and 9mm is more affordable.

[Uncle Harley]

Thanks for your input, you bring good info to the table! I have one question though, ( and I'm not trying to be a smart azz I'm genuinly interested )

 

But, why is it do you suppose that the majority of the people in the morgue are killed with 9mm and 380?

 

 

couple of reasons I can think is is A: the obvious they are more popular, but I also wonder if mabey it's not B: because the 9 mm can be shot more accuratly in a rapid fire situation due to eaiser re-targeting ( at least for me it can and I can only assume for the other untrained masses as well) The latter could also explain the increased number of holes as well since most people shoot till empty in a defensive situation. Just some food for thought, I COMPLETLY understand that NOBODY will be persuaded one way or another, I just find it interesting as to why people think what they do.

[pyre400]

They both have their purpose. Bigger, or more..? I have no problems with either, and enjoy shooting both.

I like one of Ayoob's takes on the question - 9mm for the summer and .45 for the winter.

 

.45 in the winter because:

Clothing can be worn to conceal (.45's are typically more bulky)

Clothing of target can clog JHP and effect expansion - 45 will do more damage if the JHP fails to expand

The human body has restrictive blood flow in the cold, so a bigger hole is required.

 

9mm in the summer because

Typically smaller, so easier to conceal under less clothing

Target will have less clothing that might impede expansion

The human body bleeds better in the hot weather, so a smaller round will still do ok.

 

IMO, the best caliber is one you have, and one you can shoot.

As for the recoil argument, I'm not recoil sensitive so I can shoot either just fine.

[Ccspinner]

I like 45, price on rounds is not important as I reload and price is only pennies difference.

You get alot more stoping power with a 240 g bullet as you do with a 115 g.

[kurt555gs]

This may be a little off topic, but I just switched my main carry piece (*outside of Illinois ) from a Ruger LCR .38 to an FN FiveseveN. I had thought of switching to my Kimber Super Carry Pro ( I take the .45 side of this arguement ) but the FiveseveN although big, is very light. It doesn't have the knockdown power of either a 9mm or a .45 but I am very accurate with it. Very! I am pretty good with the Kimber, but I can drive nails with the FiveseveN.

 

I did this because the little LCR really hurts to shoot. It has the trigger pull of a Home Depot calking gun, and after 7 yards, who knows where the bullet will go. It's advantages are that it is really small and light, and it's cheap if some yahoo cop wants to confiscate it over an obscure local ordinance.

 

The FiveseveN is not cheap. It only has a fraction of the knock down power ( I still might switch to the kimber eventually ), it is hated by law enforcement because with SS190 AP bullets it will go through vests. ( I don't have any AP bullets ), and although very light, it is big. Another disadvantage is that I can't take it into The Peoples Democratic Republic of California because to them, it's an "assault weapon".

 

We will see how this works out.

 

Back to this thread. I have an FN FNP-9 and a Kimber Super Carry Pro. If I were to choose between those, I'd take the Kimber. Very accurate, and the .45 ACP has been proven in wars for 100 years.

[Uncle Harley]

totally down with the different seasons,or different situations= different gun. There are times when I carry my 9, there are times when I carry my 22 mag, there are times I carry my 38 special, and there are times when I carried a 44 mag. And I almost always have a 380 in the vehichle. But most Importantly is I carry everywhere legal to do, and "transport" every place legal to do so when I'm in my home state. That is another reason I like the 9. I can place a small 9mm like a PF9 or DB9 in a small zippered pouch unloaded and slide it into my front pocket, and I can transport right here at home pretty much unrestrected minus federal buildings, school property etc. LOL try walking around with a 45 in your front pocket. I have nothing against the round it'self, it's the size of the package they are wraped in!

[Uncle Harley]

I like 45, price on rounds is not important as I reload and price is only pennies difference.

You get alot more stoping power with a 240 g bullet as you do with a 115 g.

 

I will accept that reloading to reduce the cost wil greatly narrow the gap as to which is superior and all but negate the price issue, but I don't buy the stopping power bit.

WHat exactly is "stopping power" ? That is like saying if someone was standing in the road and got hit by a mack truck doing 55 mph, somehow it will hurt more than getting hit by a honda civic doing 115 mph. That logic makes no sense at all! And a .22 can drop you like a sack of potatoes.

[RandyP]

I have tried but just can't vote - I don't think there is a 'better' caliber of the two choices given - they can both be very effective and completely lethal IF the shooter does their job. 9mm is smaller and .45 is bigger so does .40 split the difference and thus become the 'better' choice?

 

Some SD ammo makers create the same bullet design in 9mm, .40 and .45 so if they all perform their 'best' then the most trauma will be created by the largest diameter round, since at pistol velocities you don't achieve the shock trauma of a rifle round.

 

More 9mm rounds per magazine does not = more effectively placed hits and cost means nothing if it protects my life.

 

A fun, no win discussion though.

[Uncle Harley]

This may be a little off topic, but I just switched my main carry piece (*outside of Illinois ) from a Ruger LCR .38 to an FN FiveseveN. I had thought of switching to my Kimber Super Carry Pro ( I take the .45 side of this arguement ) but the FiveseveN although big, is very light. It doesn't have the knockdown power of either a 9mm or a .45 but I am very accurate with it. Very! I am pretty good with the Kimber, but I can drive nails with the FiveseveN.

 

I did this because the little LCR really hurts to shoot. It has the trigger pull of a Home Depot calking gun, and after 7 yards, who knows where the bullet will go. It's advantages are that it is really small and light, and it's cheap if some yahoo cop wants to confiscate it over an obscure local ordinance.

 

The FiveseveN is not cheap. It only has a fraction of the knock down power ( I still might switch to the kimber eventually ), it is hated by law enforcement because with SS190 AP bullets it will go through vests. ( I don't have any AP bullets ), and although very light, it is big. Another disadvantage is that I can't take it into The Peoples Democratic Republic of California because to them, it's an "assault weapon".

 

We will see how this works out.

 

Back to this thread. I have an FN FNP-9 and a Kimber Super Carry Pro. If I were to choose between those, I'd take the Kimber. Very accurate, and the .45 ACP has been proven in wars for 100 years.

 

would love to try out a Fiveseven I hear they are similar to 22 mag. And BALL AMMO has been proven in wars, I've already stated that it is obvious which is superior in ball ammo.

 

 

The accuracy part though is valid reason, are you more accurate with 45 in general, or just more accurate with it out of those two particular guns.

[Uncle Harley]

I have tried but just can't vote - I don't think there is a 'better' caliber of the two choices given - they can both be very effective and completely lethal IF the shooter does their job. 9mm is smaller and .45 is bigger so does .40 split the difference and thus become the 'better' choice?

 

Some SD ammo makers create the same bullet design in 9mm, .40 and .45 so if they all perform their 'best' then the most trauma will be created by the largest diameter round, since at pistol velocities you don't achieve the shock trauma of a rifle round.

 

More 9mm rounds per magazine does not = more effectively placed hits and cost means nothing if it protects my life.

 

A fun, no win discussion though.

 

 

 

all very good points! And everybody wins!

because everybody's anser is right for them, I just wanna know why. No system is perfect for every situation, I already stated that I KNOW THAT I WON"T persuade anyone to change, and that is not my intent, why would I want to ? Not like I have stock in 9mm. LOL My intent is to enguage the brain and make people really think about their choices, Too many times when I ask someone why they do something they point to others as reason. Not to call Kurt out again, (but since he was the most current example in this thread), he used the idea that 45 has been reliable in wars for 100 yrs, but what he may have not fully realized is that 45 BALL ammo has been used successfully in wars. In war they use FMJ because they don't shoot to kill, because it takes 2 healthy guys to drag off a wounded so that is 2 less guns firing back at them. If he's dead they get him later. He has good intentions with that line of thinking, but he is comparing apples to footballs, they are so much different that they don't even fall in the same catagory....... I KNOW why I gave up the big bore guns, and I feel that if and when Carry passes here, others ought to KNOW why they chose the system that they do.

[I Hate Gunlaws]

 

But, why is it do you suppose that the majority of the people in the morgue are killed with 9mm and 380?

 

 

 

I can place a small 9mm like a PF9 or DB9 in a small zippered pouch unloaded and slide it into my front pocket........... LOL try walking around with a 45 in your front pocket.

 

 

 

Why does 9mm and .380 send a great many people to the morgue? Probably a large combination of things- popularity (movies, songs, etc.) and price point are probably big, as well as magazine capacity and gererally being more easily concealed. I wouldn't put too much weight into the accuracy w/rapid fire- while it may matter for a few, I'd venture to say that a large portion of those individuals "designating" others for the morgue, squeeze the trigger with their eyes closed, and run as fast and far as possible afterwards.

 

As for a 9mm (or other smaller calibers) being more easily concealed- I guess I'm lucky. I'd put myself slightly above average height and probably average weight, but I've found I'm able to easily conceal a XD .45 tactical (full-size 5") with a Crossbreed supertuck deluxe...... and a pair of shorts and a T-shirt. Not exactly a small firearm...lol. Of course it requires a good belt, and clothes can't be a snug fit, but I've never had a problem with "printing" or exposing my firearm while carrying during the summer. I find the 1911 to be even less of an issue, as it seems to have a more slim profile. All of this, of course, outside the confines of Illinois.

[milq]

For me, it depends on what I'm doing/how I'm travelling outside of IL. If I'm on a bike, I'm likely carrying a smaller 9mm (Kahr CW9), it's simply easier to hide under riding clothes that tend to be cut in a trim fashion (I am not a trim guy). I can also put the Kahr back in the case at the state line and take up less cargo room. In a 4 wheel vehicle, I'm likely carrying a full size 1911 until I can get my hands on a commander to bobtail anyway.

 

The important thing to me is that I feel confident enough to place shots where needed, my 9mm carry piece only holds 7 +1, so no advantage in round count over the 1911. In my opinion, it all boils down to what you are most comfortable with and using it feels like second nature. I'm equally comfortable with either of these firearms and they both carry the same amount of ammo, so the edge comes down to the bigger bullet I think.

 

I'm reserving my actual vote until I read the ballistics tests referenced earlier in the thread, there may be something there that changes my mind...

[I Hate Gunlaws]

I did this because the little LCR really hurts to shoot. It has the trigger pull of a Home Depot calking gun, and after 7 yards, who knows where the bullet will go.

 

 

LMAO!!! Agreed 100%!

[Davey]

.45 is infinitely superior due to the fact that 9 mm won't fit my gun.

[papa]

I voted for the .45ACP. First of all , it comes in my favorite 1911 pistol .

 

Mostly I think that the .45 creates a bigger permanent wound channel. I think both calibers are reliable and that both can fail at times.

 

I own and have carried both. In fact I carry my PF-9 during the day and switch to my .45 at night here at home. Mainly because of the kimber having night sights.

[belercous]

The .45 acp is a proven man-stopper. My compact Glock .45 holds 10 rds. If I can't stop a problem with well under 10 rds, I have no business carrying a gun. More rds. isn't the answer.

 

I could envision situations where the police could use the extra rds. a 9mm would give, but not a private citizen.

[Uncle Harley]

For me, it depends on what I'm doing/how I'm travelling outside of IL. If I'm on a bike, I'm likely carrying a smaller 9mm (Kahr CW9), it's simply easier to hide under riding clothes that tend to be cut in a trim fashion (I am not a trim guy). I can also put the Kahr back in the case at the state line and take up less cargo room. In a 4 wheel vehicle, I'm likely carrying a full size 1911 until I can get my hands on a commander to bobtail anyway.

 

The important thing to me is that I feel confident enough to place shots where needed, my 9mm carry piece only holds 7 +1, so no advantage in round count over the 1911. In my opinion, it all boils down to what you are most comfortable with and using it feels like second nature. I'm equally comfortable with either of these firearms and they both carry the same amount of ammo, so the edge comes down to the bigger bullet I think.

 

I'm reserving my actual vote until I read the ballistics tests referenced earlier in the thread, there may be something there that changes my mind...

 

 

 

I actually love this answer, very well thought out! In THIS scenerio and for you, it would actually come down to which bullet is bigger assuming money for target practice does not become an issue. ( since you didn't bring it up, I will assume it's not for you) Like you ease of concealability has never been an issue for me, being 6ft 300lbs. I can easily conceal a Highpoint probably the most KLUNKY gun I have ever carried, and a 1911 is a breese, but it's always been about comfort for me. I tend to do alot of physical activities, and the bigger guns always drug my drawers down even with a good belt and holster or dug into a luv handle. Even when I wore suspenders, I would still smash the big ol things into my side so I found I was leaving it at home ALOT more often than I should, so that alone gave me 90% or better for reason to move to a smaller gun. I still use the big boys for the home and my business.

[Uncle Harley]

The .45 acp is a proven man-stopper. My compact Glock .45 holds 10 rds. If I can't stop a problem with well under 10 rds, I have no business carrying a gun. More rds. isn't the answer.

 

I could envision situations where the police could use the extra rds. a 9mm would give, but not a private citizen.

 

 

 

Proven huh? there are plently of reports where 12 ga wasn't sufficent? I suppose the 9mm isn't proven, and the 380 or heck all the dead people in the morgue with GSW from 22's they all must have hit there hed when the tripped chasing the victim?

[scough]

Although when I carry, it's usually a 1911, I will use +P which might help a little. On my motorycle, I'll use the Ultra with a CMC 7+1 for comfort. Everywhere else, a full sized Govt with 8+1. Although my XDM 5.25 .45 will hold 13+1, it's pretty bulky and not well suited for CCW. If I'm really going lightweight, my 637CT .38+P can hide just about anywhere. Imho, while I prefer a larger caliber, it's more about what I'm wearing, where I'm headed, the mode of transportation, etc. Frankly, I think there's a lot of things that come to play.

[RandyP]

I should note that my carry handgun (when and where it's legal under my Utah permit) is often either my Bersa Thunder or P3AT, both in .380 due to their small size and light weight. I have handguns in 5 calibers, I shoot most accurately with my CZ-75 SP-01 which is 9mm, my Springer GI .45 being second.

I would not feel 'defenseless' with anything in my safe.

 

The problem with the poll is that the term 'better' has no reference to give it meaning. NO caliber is better generically.

[Tompo]

I think the "better" pistol/round is the one you shoot better.

 

Bigger isn't always "better". I'd rather hit my target with a 9mm, (or a .22) than miss it with a .45.

 

But, the "better" round, IMO, is the one you can hit what you aim at.

[blackhalo]

I picked .45 because I want to make sure if I'm in a firefight with a bad guy, I've got as big a round as he probably has.

 

That being said, my two primary carry pieces are a Kimber Ultra Carry .45 and a Ruger LC9. I agree with all the arguments above on both sides, it really comes down to what I can conceal effectively given the weather, clothing options, etc. If I can get away with the .45, I'll carry it every time, though.

[blackhalo]

I think the "better" pistol/round is the one you shoot better.

 

Bigger isn't always "better". I'd rather hit my target with a 9mm, (or a .22) than miss it with a .45.

 

But, the "better" round, IMO, is the one you can hit what you aim at.

 

Very True. And I find the single action gives me a more accurate, faster follow up. I'm not very sensitive to recoil (at least in my .45), though.

[Uncle Harley]

very good comments guys keep them coming!

 

and to respond to Randy's comment The problem with the poll is that the term 'better' has no reference to give it meaning. NO caliber is better generically.

 

 

That was EXACTLY my intention and you are 100% CORRECT when you say " No caliber is better generically" I worded it the way I did so I could hear from our posters as to what they thought was better and WHY that is why I asked to defend the answer.

 

 

Thanks for your participation.

[moparcardave]

They both have their purpose. Bigger, or more..? I have no problems with either, and enjoy shooting both.

I like one of Ayoob's takes on the question - 9mm for the summer and .45 for the winter.

 

.45 in the winter because:

Clothing can be worn to conceal (.45's are typically more bulky)

Clothing of target can clog JHP and effect expansion - 45 will do more damage if the JHP fails to expand

The human body has restrictive blood flow in the cold, so a bigger hole is required.

 

9mm in the summer because

Typically smaller, so easier to conceal under less clothing

Target will have less clothing that might impede expansion

The human body bleeds better in the hot weather, so a smaller round will still do ok.

 

IMO, the best caliber is one you have, and one you can shoot.

As for the recoil argument, I'm not recoil sensitive so I can shoot either just fine.

 

Lee you hit the nail on the head. Where I live it gets hot, in the summer in shorts definately 9mm, in church when shirts tucked in, it's a 9mm. In cooler weather its a .45. If it's summertime and I am out in the fields/woods then it's a 38 stub with snake shot. Sure you can do fine with any caliber and I mean any right down to a .22. In a situation where you need a gun and all you have is a .22 then hey you are way way better then the unarmed. Years ago when in a park with my girlfriend and another couple a group of six south of the border types came up to us and started bad mouthing. We could see the situation was going south so we headed to my buddies car. He was 6'2" and 315 and not much was fat. We got in the car and they blocked our road with their car and they jumped out. I said Mike back the car up and head the other way. You don't tell Mike to back down, he reached in the seat and pulled out a .25 automatic and pointed it at them and said bring it on. Funny how even a little .25 auto made them think and turn tail and run. Twice I was with him when he pulled a gun and without firing trouble ceased. I remember the time I was acosted by a neighbor of his to doors down. We were seniors in high school. When I got to Mikes house I said that dang Ron stopped me in the road and wanted money reaching in the car go grab my keys. Mike grabbed his 44 super blackhawk and walked up the street. Ron came out to fight and Mike put him in a headlock and stuck the 44 up to his head and said do it again and you are dead. No more probs for me. This Ron dude who had a record went on to 10 years later killing his wife and 3 kids. I could go into more on what happened later but it would take a page. My opinion is no matter what a .22 will do, but I perfer larger depending on things.

[output]

For me, capacity, cost, and training played an important role. I do not carry in IL but I travel often and carry when I am able to do so legally.

 

I asked myself, which caliber can I afford to train with the most? That was my starting point. It is not enough to simply carry a firearm. You have to be proficient and confident with it. My answer to that question was 9mm.

 

My next question was what is the largest caliber I can carry that yields the highest magazine capacity? The answer to that question was also 9mm. I can carry more of it in any platform of my choosing. Sub Compact, Compact, and Full-Size handguns.

[moparcardave]

I agree on capicity, when the pocketbook is better I will add a Para Warthog the the carry collection.

[xmikex]

I was a .45 guy - until I started taking training classes and participating in Force on Force training. I am now a 9mm / .38 j-frame in a pinch kinda' guy. People will typically shoot badguys to the ground - whether that takes 1 round or 20. No one that's ever been in a gunfight will tell you they were really happy they had fewer rounds.

 

All the talk of "Stopping Power" or "Knockdown Power" is... revealing. I think that people see that the .45 is bigger / heavier and surmise that "it must be better". This is true if limited to ball ammunition. Fortunately, we are not limited to ball ammunition.

 

Rob Pincus sums up my thoughts on the matter pretty well - both on caliber and being flexible enough in your training / thought process to adapt when presented with new data.

 

Being Wrong is Important... and, Admitting It is too! Or: Why Rob Pincus now prefers the 9mm over .40 S&W for Personal Defense.

 

 

I wouldn't feel undergunned with any of the ammunition posted / tested here:

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

 

 

EDITED TO ADD:

ALL pistol calibers suck at rapidly incapacitating people. If I have to shoot someone and I get a choice of what firearm to do it with, I will choose a rifle or a shotgun 100% of the time. Pistols are convenient to carry and represent a compromise between portability and lethality.