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#61 NakPPI

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:55 AM

I wonder if the judge in Moore said no so the judge in Shepard can say yes, instant conflict. Would that not go to Illinois Supreme rite away? or am I as stupid at the judicial system as I think I am?


Wrong court system. :thumbsup:

This is federal. So the only place to go is the seventh circuit and then to SCOTUS.

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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#62 stm

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:10 AM

How long will this motion delay a decision in Shepard v. Madigan?

Is the judge in Shepard obliged to follow the precedent set by Moore?

If the judge in Shepard issues an injunction, is it only valid in the Southern District of Illinois?

Will split decisions hasten a ruling from the 7th Circuit?

yea everyone makes fun of the redneck till the zombies show up. . .


#63 Federal Farmer

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:18 AM

How long will this motion delay a decision in Shepard v. Madigan?

Is the judge in Shepard obliged to follow the precedent set by Moore?

If the judge in Shepard issues an injunction, is it only valid in the Southern District of Illinois?

Will split decisions hasten a ruling from the 7th Circuit?


I think the Moore ruling is non-precedential, though the Shepard judge can utilize it informationally.

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#64 NakPPI

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:27 AM

How long will this motion delay a decision in Shepard v. Madigan?

None. This sort of thing will be entered "off call" I doubt that there will be a hearing unless the judge requests it.


Is the judge in Shepard obliged to follow the precedent set by Moore?

Nope. The Moore court is on the same level as the Shepard court.

If the judge in Shepard issues an injunction, is it only valid in the Southern District of Illinois?

Nope. The constitution doesn't just apply based on districts. Also Shepard is not an injunction case. It's a summary judgment case.


Will split decisions hasten a ruling from the 7th Circuit?

Yup. Remember the whole discussion about legislative vacuums? If we win summary judgment in Shepard we trigger a legislative vacuum.



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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#65 stm

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:21 AM

Thanks, NakPPI!

yea everyone makes fun of the redneck till the zombies show up. . .


#66 Hatchet

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:43 PM


I wonder if the judge in Moore said no so the judge in Shepard can say yes, instant conflict. Would that not go to Illinois Supreme rite away? or am I as stupid at the judicial system as I think I am?


Wrong court system. :tinfoilhat:

This is federal. So the only place to go is the seventh circuit and then to SCOTUS.

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Thanks for the clarification... So I am as stupid as I thought. I knew I shouldn't have slept that much in school.
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#67 NakPPI

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:58 PM

I meant regulatory vaccuum, not legislative vacuum. Oops.

Also, winning Shepard would be ripe for more subtle lawyer humor. Moore was dismissed outright for lack of a second amendment claim. A judgment in Shepard would be like saying not only is there a claim, the plaintiff is right! More thumbs for Myerscough's eyes...

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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#68 lockman

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:13 PM

I meant regulatory vaccuum, not legislative vacuum. Oops.

Also, winning Shepard would be ripe for more subtle lawyer humor. Moore was dismissed outright for lack of a second amendment claim. A judgment in Shepard would be like saying not only is there a claim, the plaintiff is right! More thumbs for Myerscough's eyes...

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Were can I get a legislative vacuum, they might come in real handy to clean up around Washington, Chicago and Springfield!
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#69 snubjob

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:15 PM

How long will this motion delay a decision in Shepard v. Madigan?

None. This sort of thing will be entered "off call" I doubt that there will be a hearing unless the judge requests it.


Is the judge in Shepard obliged to follow the precedent set by Moore?

Nope. The Moore court is on the same level as the Shepard court.

If the judge in Shepard issues an injunction, is it only valid in the Southern District of Illinois?

Nope. The constitution doesn't just apply based on districts. Also Shepard is not an injunction case. It's a summary judgment case.


Will split decisions hasten a ruling from the 7th Circuit?

Yup. Remember the whole discussion about legislative vacuums? If we win summary judgment in Shepard we trigger a legislative vacuum.

Thanks for clearing that up for me also! Was a little confused. Well maybe alot confused!

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#70 Sigma

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 03:45 PM

I dont get why he said the court left the issue not wholly decided. They went to great detail to explain what bear means and added the words such as. Seems like saying it wasnt decided gives the 7th a way to say the same as Meyerscough

Edited by Sigma, 14 February 2012 - 03:45 PM.

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If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.

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Guns kill people just like beds get girls pregnant.

#71 NakPPI

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 03:55 PM

I dont get why he said the court left the issue not wholly decided. They went to great detail to explain what bear means and added the words such as. Seems like saying it wasnt decided gives the 7th a way to say the same as Meyerscough


Heller specifically left issues undecided for future cases. Gura only wanted a ruling as to guns in the home. This was a tactical legal decision. If they added too many other issues they may have not gotten the same ruling.

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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#72 TomKoz

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:26 PM


I dont get why he said the court left the issue not wholly decided. They went to great detail to explain what bear means and added the words such as. Seems like saying it wasnt decided gives the 7th a way to say the same as Meyerscough


Heller specifically left issues undecided for future cases. Gura only wanted a ruling as to guns in the home. This was a tactical legal decision. If they added too many other issues they may have not gotten the same ruling.

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OR the opportunity for more billable hours???
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#73 lockman

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:57 PM


I dont get why he said the court left the issue not wholly decided. They went to great detail to explain what bear means and added the words such as. Seems like saying it wasnt decided gives the 7th a way to say the same as Meyerscough


Heller specifically left issues undecided for future cases. Gura only wanted a ruling as to guns in the home. This was a tactical legal decision. If they added too many other issues they may have not gotten the same ruling.

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the finding may be narrow but the definitions rendered of "bear" was quite clear, but ignored.
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#74 NakPPI

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:05 PM

the finding may be narrow but the definitions rendered of "bear" was quite clear, but ignored.


You are referring to dicta. Which is admittedly being ignored. Judge Neville's dissent in Aguilar addresses this issue quite thoroughly.

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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#75 Tvandermyde

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:27 PM

this may delay things about a week for the judge to decide if they are going to address it or not.
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#76 dmefford

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:14 PM

OR the opportunity for more billable hours???


Not so on the billable hours... The Supreme Court prefers cases that are very narrowly defined. This case wanted a decision #1 on, "Is the RKBA a fundamental individual right secured by the 2A of the Bill of Rights? And #2., This makes it narrow..., can the firearm be carried in the home ready for defense?

That is very narrow. He did not want to ask can it be carried in the back yard? or on the street? or anywhere else.

The result:

1. The RKBA is a fundamental individual right
2. It can be carried in the home loaded for bad guys.

That is the bare essence of the findings...

Regards, Drd

Edited by dmefford, 14 February 2012 - 11:57 PM.

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#77 Sigma

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:40 PM

The Daily caller talks about this.

And gives a nice plug to Illinois carry
Exodus 22:2-3
If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.

Gun control is not about guns, it's about control. Once they have all the guns, they'll also have complete control.-Abolt

Guns kill people just like beds get girls pregnant.

#78 Frank

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 04:54 PM

The Daily caller talks about this.

And gives a nice plug to Illinois carry

I like Bob Barr. He writes some pretty good stuff.

I think he mentions the Moore v. Madigan case, not Shepard v. Madigan. At any rate, it was a good article, and great to see IllinoisCarry mentioned in the press again!

Thanks for sharing this article with us!

-- Frank

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"The Supreme Court has decided that the amendment confers a right to bear arms for self-defense, which is as important outside the home as inside." -Moore v. Madigan, 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, December 11, 2012


#79 abolt243

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

Yeah, I know. You saw this jump to the top and you were hoping for a decision. Well, that ain't it. But, there has been much consternation over the fact that Judge Meyerscough dismissed Moore and the fact that she was an Obama appointee, that I got to wondering about Judge Stiehl, the presiding judge in Shepard. This has probably been covered someplace already and if it has, I'll remove this post. But, I found out that Judge Stiehl was born in 1925, (so he's 87) in Belleville. He served in the Navy during WW II and the Korean conflict. He was in private practice from 1952 to 1986. He served as Asst. States' Attorney at Belleville and Asst. Attorney General of Illinois. He was nominated by Pres. Ronald Reagan in 1986 and confirmed by the Senate within a month. He served as Chief Judge from 1992 - 1993.

So, he's a Reagan appointee and has military background. Don't know if that makes him more or less sympathetic to our cause, but it's certainly different than the background of Judge Meyerscough.

Just thought I'd pass that along.

Tim
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

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#80 TomKoz

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 04:49 PM

Yeah, I know. You saw this jump to the top and you were hoping for a decision. Well, that ain't it. But, there has been much consternation over the fact that Judge Meyerscough dismissed Moore and the fact that she was an Obama appointee, that I got to wondering about Judge Stiehl, the presiding judge in Shepard. This has probably been covered someplace already and if it has, I'll remove this post. But, I found out that Judge Stiehl was born in 1925, (so he's 87) in Belleville. He served in the Navy during WW II and the Korean conflict. He was in private practice from 1952 to 1986. He served as Asst. States' Attorney at Belleville and Asst. Attorney General of Illinois. He was nominated by Pres. Ronald Reagan in 1986 and confirmed by the Senate within a month. He served as Chief Judge from 1992 - 1993.

So, he's a Reagan appointee and has military background. Don't know if that makes him more or less sympathetic to our cause, but it's certainly different than the background of Judge Meyerscough.

Just thought I'd pass that along.

Tim


87 years old !!!!! Wonder if it's taking so long because the ruling is being written between naps! ;~)
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#81 abolt243

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 04:52 PM


Yeah, I know. You saw this jump to the top and you were hoping for a decision. Well, that ain't it. But, there has been much consternation over the fact that Judge Meyerscough dismissed Moore and the fact that she was an Obama appointee, that I got to wondering about Judge Stiehl, the presiding judge in Shepard. This has probably been covered someplace already and if it has, I'll remove this post. But, I found out that Judge Stiehl was born in 1925, (so he's 87) in Belleville. He served in the Navy during WW II and the Korean conflict. He was in private practice from 1952 to 1986. He served as Asst. States' Attorney at Belleville and Asst. Attorney General of Illinois. He was nominated by Pres. Ronald Reagan in 1986 and confirmed by the Senate within a month. He served as Chief Judge from 1992 - 1993.

So, he's a Reagan appointee and has military background. Don't know if that makes him more or less sympathetic to our cause, but it's certainly different than the background of Judge Meyerscough.

Just thought I'd pass that along.

Tim


87 years old !!!!! Wonder if it's taking so long because the ruling is being written between naps! ;~)


Now, be nice. For all we know, he's a 87 year young techie that's reading your comments on his iPad while dictating his decisions to a voice recognition laptop!!

Quite frankly, I hope that I am still around to take naps at 87. I can't imagine still subjecting myself to the stress of being on the bench!!

Tim
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#82 NakPPI

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 04:57 PM

You guys are funny. Their law clerks write this stuff and then they edit it. :P

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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#83 Drylok

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 04:58 PM

I hope the Paulbots read this and take it under great consideration when they close the curtain in November
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks"
-Thomas Jefferson-

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#84 abolt243

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:21 PM

You guys are funny. Their law clerks write this stuff and then they edit it. Posted Image

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Then the clerks very well may be reading our comments on their iPads!!

T
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#85 abolt243

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:21 PM

I hope the Paulbots read this and take it under great consideration when they close the curtain in November



Yep, this might be another spot that needs to be filled sometime in the next 4 years.

UT
Are you a member of the ISRA?? If not, why not?? Join over 18,000 other Illinois gun owners in the fight for your rights!!!

The Roman Empire fell due to a large, corrupt government, overspending, an overextended military, insecure borders, and the illegal immigration of Goths, barbarians (anyone who was not educated), and religious fanatics. Sound familiar?


"..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

Luke 11:21 - "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed." NASB


#86 TomKoz

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:31 PM

Come on guys/gals, judges and clerks have a sense of humor to!
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#87 Sigma

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:43 PM

Yeah, I know. You saw this jump to the top and you were hoping for a decision. Well, that ain't it. But, there has been much consternation over the fact that Judge Meyerscough dismissed Moore and the fact that she was an Obama appointee, that I got to wondering about Judge Stiehl, the presiding judge in Shepard. This has probably been covered someplace already and if it has, I'll remove this post. But, I found out that Judge Stiehl was born in 1925, (so he's 87) in Belleville. He served in the Navy during WW II and the Korean conflict. He was in private practice from 1952 to 1986. He served as Asst. States' Attorney at Belleville and Asst. Attorney General of Illinois. He was nominated by Pres. Ronald Reagan in 1986 and confirmed by the Senate within a month. He served as Chief Judge from 1992 - 1993.

So, he's a Reagan appointee and has military background. Don't know if that makes him more or less sympathetic to our cause, but it's certainly different than the background of Judge Meyerscough.

Just thought I'd pass that along.

Tim

i feel a lot better about this now
Exodus 22:2-3
If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.

Gun control is not about guns, it's about control. Once they have all the guns, they'll also have complete control.-Abolt

Guns kill people just like beds get girls pregnant.

#88 C0untZer0

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 06:34 PM

I take naps.

I'd take a nap every day if I could.

On Sundays I take 2 naps !
‘Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive...those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.‘
- C. S. Lewis

#89 rskeeters

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:48 AM

[Were can I get a legislative vacuum, they might come in real handy to clean up around Washington, Chicago and Springfield!]

+1