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#1 RobR369

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 10:56 PM

Are Expandable batons illegal in Illinois? I tried finding it in the laws, but cant find anywhere about batons. I see billy clubs, does a baton fall under the category of a billy club?

#2 Bud

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 06:21 AM

Are Expandable batons illegal in Illinois? I tried finding it in the laws, but cant find anywhere about batons. I see billy clubs, does a baton fall under the category of a billy club?




It would violate the Unlawful Use of Weapion Statue:


(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same <FONT size=2 face="Courier New">unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material.

Bud

 

 

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#3 oneshot

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 07:32 AM

Everything up to and including Mentos and Diet Coke is illegal in this stupid state. :)

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#4 Buzzard

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 07:46 AM

I don't know of any laws against walking canes. I've seen some with brass handles, figurines and such that I wouldn't want to be struck with.



If there's some case law that someone knows of......
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but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

#5 paknon2wheels

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 07:47 AM

I don't carry one on my person, but I do keep an ASP accessible in my backpack.

I am not aware of anything in the code that would prohibit "lawfully" carrying one other than in specific areas such as this.

(13 ) Carries or possesses on or about his or her
person while in a building occupied by a unit of government, a billy club, other weapon of like character, or other instrument of like character intended for use as a weapon. For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material.

#6 Frank

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 08:09 AM


Are Expandable batons illegal in Illinois? I tried finding it in the laws, but cant find anywhere about batons. I see billy clubs, does a baton fall under the category of a billy club?




It would violate the Unlawful Use of Weapion Statue:


(720 ILCS 5/24‑1)(from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1
Sec. 24‑1.Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material.


Please note the highlighted part above. I am not a lawyer, but if your intent is self-defense, that is not an the same as intending to use unlawfully against another. Private security officers carry nightsticks or Asps without any special authorization or exemption by law. You might want to double check with an attorney, but you might be okay to do so.

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#7 GarandFan

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 08:21 AM

(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same <FONT size=2 face="Courier New">unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material.


What if you are carrying such a baton with NO intent to use it unlawfully against another? I know it's a naive argument ... but if the intent of carrying it is only to use in a lawful use-of-force application ... then by the letter here it should be lawful to carry.

This gets at the whole philosophical and legal jist of carrying defensive weapons. The intent is to use them ONLY in the event that one is lawfully justified to do so. That is the whole idea behind concealed or open carry!
"It takes all the running you can do just to keep in the same place."
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#8 RobR369

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 09:07 AM


(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same <FONT size=2 face="Courier New">unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material.


What if you are carrying such a baton with NO intent to use it unlawfully against another? I know it's a naive argument ... but if the intent of carrying it is only to use in a lawful use-of-force application ... then by the letter here it should be lawful to carry.

This gets at the whole philosophical and legal jist of carrying defensive weapons. The intent is to use them ONLY in the event that one is lawfully justified to do so. That is the whole idea behind concealed or open carry!


This is exactly what I was thinking also :headbang1: It clearly states, its an offense when he KNOWINGLY carries or possesses WITH INTENT !! Im a Glazier, I deal with and carry around broken glass everyday, does that mean, I can be charged with UUW? :)

#9 mack69

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 10:05 AM

You are not carrying with intent to harm, you are carrying for self defence against
someone who would harm you. That would be your defense. It all focuses on intent.
When out in the field at night I always have an 18 inch legnth of antenna cable in my belt.
Its not a weapon nor intended as one but will split a melon... Like everything here in
Illinois, everything is considered a weapon...
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#10 Danielm60660

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 10:13 AM

@ Buzzard,
Those old school canes with the huge brass knob are a great way to carry a defensive weapon. Basically, they fall under the Americans with Disabilities Act. You cannot be denied a cane to walk with. There is no definition of cane in the act (or what constitutes NEED for having said cane), but if you walk with a cane, you can take it anywhere.
DM

#11 billzfx4

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 10:25 AM

I look at it in the same light as carrying a knife, "intent to use unlawfully".
I carry a folding knife everyday, everywhere. I have also carried an expanding baton openly on my belt for years, with never a second look from anyone, police included.
Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I am kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me.

#12 Buzzard

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 10:27 AM

@ Buzzard,
Those old school canes with the huge brass knob are a great way to carry a defensive weapon. Basically, they fall under the Americans with Disabilities Act. You cannot be denied a cane to walk with. There is no definition of cane in the act (or what constitutes NEED for having said cane), but if you walk with a cane, you can take it anywhere.
DM


Yes indeed. Google "self-defense, walking canes" and you'll find several companies that not only sell canes, but also instruction on defense techniques.

I've even seen some handsome, quality made walking canes sold in truck stops.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes,
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

#13 Bird76Mojo

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 11:43 AM


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Posted 27 March 2011 - 12:51 PM

Thread the bottom 1/4" of it and have radio components. What some would call a collapsible baton could also make a nice antenna.

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#15 05FLHT

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 01:13 PM



Are Expandable batons illegal in Illinois? I tried finding it in the laws, but cant find anywhere about batons. I see billy clubs, does a baton fall under the category of a billy club?




It would violate the Unlawful Use of Weapion Statue:


(720 ILCS 5/24‑1)(from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1
Sec. 24‑1.Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material.


Please note the highlighted part above. I am not a lawyer, but if your intent is self-defense, that is not an the same as intending to use unlawfully against another. Private security officers carry nightsticks or Asps without any special authorization or exemption by law. You might want to double check with an attorney, but you might be okay to do so.

-- Frank


Very observant regarding 'intent.'
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#16 Bud

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 01:24 PM

If you are going to carry one of these (or all ready are carrying one) just remember it only takes one hot dog cop to charge you and one crusading States Attorney to prosecute you. Even if you are found "not guilty" it may very well cost you a fortune.

One of the reasons we no longer have a death penalty in this State is because of the number of innocent people who were sitting on death row waiting to be executed.

You do not ever want to be in the position of having to prove your nnocense based on your interpretation of an existi ng law. It may very well cost you a fortune, establish a criminal record and maybe even your freedom even though in your mind and heart of hearts you had no intent to use it criminally.

We live in a State where a lot of cops are looking for "peer points" by making what they perceive to be 'quality' arrests.

I am not interested in hearing how wrong that is, how somebody should do something to fix it, I just want you to know that reality sometimes bites and in this case, itr can bite very hard. There are a great many police departments in thsi State that will charge you if you are carrying any type of weapon and they really will not care what your intent is/was.

Bud

 

 

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#17 Don Gwinn

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 02:11 PM

I don't think it's naive at all. I've always carried whatever size knife I wished on exactly that theory--if they want to arrest me, they can, but they'll have to prove intent if they want to win the case. Notice that it's not an "affirmative defense." I am not required to prove that my intent was self-defense. Instead, they will have to prove that my intent was "unlawfully to hurt another." In short, I believe this was written as a tack-on charge to pile on someone caught carrying out or planning an attack on someone; if he or she had one of the listed weapons with him or her, you can get him or her for carrying it with unlawful intent. But unless there's some other crime being committed or demonstrably planned, it's going to be next to impossible to prove intent anyway.

Now, as with guns in consoles, fanny pack carry, etc., it's always important to remind people that this is where I draw the line for myself. I've thought it through and decided that's the risk I'm willing to take--I'm not going to violate the law, but in this particular case, I accept that I may be hassled or arrested and be forced to defend myself in court. None of this applies to anyone who hasn't thought it through that far, and I'm not advising anyone else to do what I do.


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#18 defaultdotxbe

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 02:17 PM

If you are going to carry one of these (or all ready are carrying one) just remember it only takes one hot dog cop to charge you and one crusading States Attorney to prosecute you. Even if you are found "not guilty" it may very well cost you a fortune.

One of the reasons we no longer have a death penalty in this State is because of the number of innocent people who were sitting on death row waiting to be executed.

You do not ever want to be in the position of having to prove your nnocense based on your interpretation of an existi ng law. It may very well cost you a fortune, establish a criminal record and maybe even your freedom even though in your mind and heart of hearts you had no intent to use it criminally.

We live in a State where a lot of cops are looking for "peer points" by making what they perceive to be 'quality' arrests.

I am not interested in hearing how wrong that is, how somebody should do something to fix it, I just want you to know that reality sometimes bites and in this case, itr can bite very hard. There are a great many police departments in thsi State that will charge you if you are carrying any type of weapon and they really will not care what your intent is/was.

with that attitude, we have all already lost

when we get RTC will you be afraid to carry because and overzealous cop doesnt know the law? or a hot shot SA thinks Home Rule still applies?


chicago still issues tickets for tinted front windows in cars, knowing the state law pre-empts home rule (if you contest it in court most judges will dismiss it out of hand) but they do it because they know a large enough number of of people are ignorant of the law and will just mail the $250 check

#19 Frank

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 02:38 PM

I don't think it's naive at all. I've always carried whatever size knife I wished on exactly that theory--if they want to arrest me, they can, but they'll have to prove intent if they want to win the case. Notice that it's not an "affirmative defense." I am not required to prove that my intent was self-defense. Instead, they will have to prove that my intent was "unlawfully to hurt another." In short, I believe this was written as a tack-on charge to pile on someone caught carrying out or planning an attack on someone; if he or she had one of the listed weapons with him or her, you can get him or her for carrying it with unlawful intent. But unless there's some other crime being committed or demonstrably planned, it's going to be next to impossible to prove intent anyway.

{snip}


Thanks. That was kind of my thinking as well.

However, note that many retailers will not sell these kind of items (Asp, some brands of OC spray, handcuffs, etc) to the general public, only to law enforcement or licensed security. That may lead some people to believe it is illegal to carry/possess these items, because the police supply shop won't sell it to them.

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#20 Bud

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 02:41 PM

with that attitude, we have all already lost

when we get RTC will you be afraid to carry because and overzealous cop doesnt know the law? or a hot shot SA thinks Home Rule still applies?




Actually, as most people here know, I already carry in Illinois. I was trying to explain, based on my experience as a retired police administrator, that I have seen bad arrests and I know how
much damage can be done to an other wise innocent person by an overzealous cop and a magnificently screwed up criminal justice system that we all enjoy here in Illinois..

I was just trying to point out what may actually happen because it does, all the time.

I could care less if you carry an RPG personally.

The OP asked an opinion about carrying an expandable baton and I expressed my opinion based on his question and on my experiences. I was just trying to answer his question.

I regularly carry a 1911 in .45 acp, sometimes IWB but more often OWB in a finely crafted matching TT holster, magazine carrier and belt because my Illinois coincealed carry permit allows me to and there is nothing a cop can do about it.

But I don't carry a taser, an expendable baton or a PR-24 because I think that would fire up some uberfanatic young policeman into proving to me he is more knowledgeable concerning current Illinois statues and making an issue of it.

and what you wrote sort of proves my point doesn't it?

chicago still issues tickets for tinted front windows in cars, knowing the state law pre-empts home rule (if you contest it in court most judges will dismiss it out of hand) but they do it because they know a large enough number of of people are ignorant of the law and will just mail the $250 check

Let a Chicago cop see your Asp or a taser or a knife and see what happens.

Bud

 

 

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#21 defaultdotxbe

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 03:09 PM

Let a Chicago cop see your Asp or a taser or a knife and see what happens.

well as was mentioned in another thread, tasers are illegal to carry in IL, so cops dont need to be overzealous to arrest you for that, the rest might be illegal in chicago also, i'm pretty sure ASPs are in my town

#22 Don Gwinn

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 03:13 PM

I'm not sure I was clear. I was not disagreeing with Bud. What he says is true. I thought through all the points Bud made (long ago) and made my choice with my eyes open. I'm not telling others to do what I do, or not to do it, but to face all the facts and make an informed decision ahead of time so you don't have to try to do it on the fly by the side of the road.


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#23 howie

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 06:04 AM

I don't think it's naive at all. I've always carried whatever size knife I wished on exactly that theory--if they want to arrest me, they can, but they'll have to prove intent if they want to win the case. Notice that it's not an "affirmative defense." I am not required to prove that my intent was self-defense. Instead, they will have to prove that my intent was "unlawfully to hurt another." In short, I believe this was written as a tack-on charge to pile on someone caught carrying out or planning an attack on someone; if he or she had one of the listed weapons with him or her, you can get him or her for carrying it with unlawful intent. But unless there's some other crime being committed or demonstrably planned, it's going to be next to impossible to prove intent anyway.

Now, as with guns in consoles, fanny pack carry, etc., it's always important to remind people that this is where I draw the line for myself. I've thought it through and decided that's the risk I'm willing to take--I'm not going to violate the law, but in this particular case, I accept that I may be hassled or arrested and be forced to defend myself in court. None of this applies to anyone who hasn't thought it through that far, and I'm not advising anyone else to do what I do.


I work for DOC, and I know of co-workers who carry on a regular basis. I've had multiple co-workers from up north tell me they carry all the time. One even told me he was stopped by Chicago PD and when they found out he was DOC the cop wanted to know where his gun was. He replied he didn't have one, and according to him, was chastised by the cop for NOT carrying. I don't know if I can believe stories like that one, but I do know I've debated with myself long and hard over whether or not I should carry, on my person, from time to time. State law says I can carry to and from work, but that's a moot point as DOC won't allow us to keep weapons in our vehicles parked on state grounds. While the argument "better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" has merit, IMHO, I haven't got to the point yet where I'm willing to risk loosing my job, house, retirement, and everything else just to prove a point. If it would only effect me that's one thing, but there are three other people who rely on me to make a decent living, and to stay out of jail.

I've been waiting for CCW for 22 years now, as it's not often I make new friends at work, quite the contrary. I've only ran into ex-cons who recognized me a handful of times. Thankfully, they've been peaceful. I pray the day never comes when I have my family in tow, and run into a convict who remembers me for the wrong reasons.

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