After Heller and McDonald, why would anyone still be advocating that we take two steps backwards and allow Chicago to restrict an individuals protected fundamental right? Preemption is dead, bury it. Right now it's wait and see. Deal with it, I am. What ever is going to happen in the IL legislature this year is going to happen.
As far as a suit in Illinois to challenge the bearing of arms outside of the home, I was a big proponent, but not for the right reason. I wanted to 'light the fire' under Madigan, Cullerton, and Quinn to try and speed up the process. Would it have worked? Maybe. Was it the right thing to do, the right time to do it, and the right place for the challenge? No and I understand that now. Those who are challenging the status quo are carefully choosing their battles by picking the time, place, and subject of the challenge very carefully.
Hopefully this year the ILGA sees the light and Quinn respects their wishes. If not, take comfort in the fact that very good cases have already been filed and are well on their way to the SCOTUS.
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8
Illinois concealed-carry proposal will resurface in Legislature
Started by
oneshot
, Jan 12 2011 11:27 PM
144 replies to this topic
#121
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 06:54 AM
I SUPPORT 2193. I WILL SEE THIS BILL PASSED AND BECOME LAW. I WILL CARRY IN DEFENSE OF MYSELF AND THOSE THAT I LOVE, AND WILL CONTINUE THE FIGHT.
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson
Finally, to all who have carried us to this point, to all who will continue to fight, and to those who will pick up from where we leave off, thank you.
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson
Finally, to all who have carried us to this point, to all who will continue to fight, and to those who will pick up from where we leave off, thank you.
#122
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 07:31 AM
bhannah, on 08 February 2011 - 12:49 AM, said:
It is a long story why we have to include Chicago in the bill, it has little to do with McDonald, granted I agree Chicago should be included, but Madagan called the bluff and said ANY carry bill will need the super majority period.
Now we are stuck and needing the super, so sure why not include Chicago..
This was long before the McDonald case.
We need to be honest here and stop making excuses.
Now we are stuck and needing the super, so sure why not include Chicago..
This was long before the McDonald case.
We need to be honest here and stop making excuses.
Disarming the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them. George Mason
Remember the 1991 Luby Cafeteria Massacre of the Unarmed (Kileen, Texas before Texas Concealed Carry) Do we need 23 people to die in a similar incident before we're allowed effective self defense?
Three school masacres have been stopped by civilians with firearms. Two with handguns and the third by a guy with a shotgun. (Pearl, Ms; Appalacian School of Law; Edinboro,Pa)
Remember the 1991 Luby Cafeteria Massacre of the Unarmed (Kileen, Texas before Texas Concealed Carry) Do we need 23 people to die in a similar incident before we're allowed effective self defense?
Three school masacres have been stopped by civilians with firearms. Two with handguns and the third by a guy with a shotgun. (Pearl, Ms; Appalacian School of Law; Edinboro,Pa)
#123
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 07:42 AM
junglebob, on 08 February 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:
Lets face it there is no state where the majority of the people 21 and over carry. I'd bet a poll of Vermont residents or Alaska residents would prove that. So we will probably never get a majority of the people in Chicago to be strong supporters of RTC. There will be those like Otis McDonald that continue to support our cause and aid us greatly. As Todd said about leaving Chicago out, it has been tried before with no gain in legislators support.
That's the beauty of a Republic over a Democracy, where the rights of the individual are protected (by the Constitution) against the whims of the majority.
I SUPPORT 2193. I WILL SEE THIS BILL PASSED AND BECOME LAW. I WILL CARRY IN DEFENSE OF MYSELF AND THOSE THAT I LOVE, AND WILL CONTINUE THE FIGHT.
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson
Finally, to all who have carried us to this point, to all who will continue to fight, and to those who will pick up from where we leave off, thank you.
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson
Finally, to all who have carried us to this point, to all who will continue to fight, and to those who will pick up from where we leave off, thank you.
#124
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 08:58 AM
Fine, if they really want a super-majority in order for this to pass, winner takes all in this case. Instead of filing multiple CCW Bills, can we cobble one together with pre-emption of Chicago, you know a 'pro-gun' bill package? We got nothing to lose, except our ability to keep ourselves from laughing at Chicago when we pass a CCW Bill that pre-empts them, let's put all our chips on the table for this one.
#125
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:03 AM
junglebob, on 08 February 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:
bhannah, on 08 February 2011 - 12:49 AM, said:
It is a long story why we have to include Chicago in the bill, it has little to do with McDonald, granted I agree Chicago should be included, but Madagan called the bluff and said ANY carry bill will need the super majority period.
Now we are stuck and needing the super, so sure why not include Chicago..
This was long before the McDonald case.
We need to be honest here and stop making excuses.
Now we are stuck and needing the super, so sure why not include Chicago..
This was long before the McDonald case.
We need to be honest here and stop making excuses.
I do believe that the bill should retain the language "legislators voting against the bill will not be eligible to apply for a permit."
Not really a carrot...more of a cattle prod at the other end!
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes,
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
#126
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:20 AM
Buzzard, on 08 February 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:
On the subject of legislators support -
I do believe that the bill should retain the language "legislators voting against the bill will not be eligible to apply for a permit."
Not really a carrot...more of a cattle prod at the other end!
I do believe that the bill should retain the language "legislators voting against the bill will not be eligible to apply for a permit."
Not really a carrot...more of a cattle prod at the other end!
Formal charges for deprivation of liberty seem more appropriate.
I SUPPORT 2193. I WILL SEE THIS BILL PASSED AND BECOME LAW. I WILL CARRY IN DEFENSE OF MYSELF AND THOSE THAT I LOVE, AND WILL CONTINUE THE FIGHT.
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson
Finally, to all who have carried us to this point, to all who will continue to fight, and to those who will pick up from where we leave off, thank you.
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson
Finally, to all who have carried us to this point, to all who will continue to fight, and to those who will pick up from where we leave off, thank you.
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:23 AM
05FLHT, on 08 February 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:
Buzzard, on 08 February 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:
On the subject of legislators support -
I do believe that the bill should retain the language "legislators voting against the bill will not be eligible to apply for a permit."
Not really a carrot...more of a cattle prod at the other end!
I do believe that the bill should retain the language "legislators voting against the bill will not be eligible to apply for a permit."
Not really a carrot...more of a cattle prod at the other end!
Formal charges for deprivation of liberty seem more appropriate.
I would LOVE... LOVE... LOVE.. to see a lawsuit filed against every legislator in IL who voted against every RTC bill post-McDonald.
ProtectIllinois.org: Share this link to teach others about RTC in IL
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:51 AM
mstrat, on 08 February 2011 - 09:23 AM, said:
I would LOVE... LOVE... LOVE.. to see a lawsuit filed against every legislator in IL who voted against every RTC bill post-McDonald.
Sorry to pop the balloon, but they have immunity. Section 1983 only goes after the enforcers of law, not the ones who voted for it.
#129
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 10:14 AM
Gray Peterson, on 08 February 2011 - 09:51 AM, said:
mstrat, on 08 February 2011 - 09:23 AM, said:
I would LOVE... LOVE... LOVE.. to see a lawsuit filed against every legislator in IL who voted against every RTC bill post-McDonald.
Sorry to pop the balloon, but they have immunity. Section 1983 only goes after the enforcers of law, not the ones who voted for it.
Yea, I assumed that the law-makers would have a law protecting themselves. No surprises there. Oh well.
ProtectIllinois.org: Share this link to teach others about RTC in IL
#130
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 11:59 AM
05FLHT, on 08 February 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:
Buzzard, on 08 February 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:
On the subject of legislators support -
I do believe that the bill should retain the language "legislators voting against the bill will not be eligible to apply for a permit."
Not really a carrot...more of a cattle prod at the other end!
I do believe that the bill should retain the language "legislators voting against the bill will not be eligible to apply for a permit."
Not really a carrot...more of a cattle prod at the other end!
Formal charges for deprivation of liberty seem more appropriate.
Make sure there is a sever-ability clause. I am sure such a provision would not pass constitutional muster.
"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1776
Life Member NRA, ISRA, CCRKBA & SAF
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#131
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 12:04 PM
lockman, on 08 February 2011 - 11:59 AM, said:
05FLHT, on 08 February 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:
Buzzard, on 08 February 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:
On the subject of legislators support -
I do believe that the bill should retain the language "legislators voting against the bill will not be eligible to apply for a permit."
Not really a carrot...more of a cattle prod at the other end!
I do believe that the bill should retain the language "legislators voting against the bill will not be eligible to apply for a permit."
Not really a carrot...more of a cattle prod at the other end!
Formal charges for deprivation of liberty seem more appropriate.
Make sure there is a sever-ability clause. I am sure such a provision would not pass constitutional muster.
I wondered about that myself. Maybe it's best to just leave the eligibilty issue out of it.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes,
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
#132
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 12:34 PM
guys fighting amongst ourselfs is what they like. I'm sure that the anti"s that troll this site are loving all the aurguments going on here. Lets do this the way that our rights were taken away ,on rule at a time. lets get something passed, anything.then we work from that. lets have our camel's nose under the tent for a change.thats how we lost righrs and thats how we will get them back, in small bits
#133
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 12:48 PM
ike, on 08 February 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:
guys fighting amongst ourselfs is what they like. I'm sure that the anti"s that troll this site are loving all the aurguments going on here. Lets do this the way that our rights were taken away ,on rule at a time. lets get something passed, anything.then we work from that. lets have our camel's nose under the tent for a change.thats how we lost righrs and thats how we will get them back, in small bits
Yep if it's swiftly taken away you can swiftly gain it back. However if in time and by slow operations (hmm where have I heard that?) our rights are stipped away we will have to restore them in time and by slow operations.
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks"
-Thomas Jefferson-
Now two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red, the white, the blue. The other ones got a rattle snake with a simple statement made, don't tread on me, is what it says and I'll take that to my grave
-Aaron Lewis-
-Thomas Jefferson-
Now two flags fly above my land that really sum up how I feel. One is the colors that fly high and proud the red, the white, the blue. The other ones got a rattle snake with a simple statement made, don't tread on me, is what it says and I'll take that to my grave
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 12:52 PM
ike, on 08 February 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:
guys fighting amongst ourselfs is what they like. I'm sure that the anti"s that troll this site are loving all the aurguments going on here. Lets do this the way that our rights were taken away ,on rule at a time. lets get something passed, anything.then we work from that. lets have our camel's nose under the tent for a change.thats how we lost righrs and thats how we will get them back, in small bits
No arguments from me. I have COMPLETE faith in Todd Vandermyde & the folks that are working on this.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes,
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
#135
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 02:11 PM
I am with Buzzard on this; I also have all faith in Todd. Sometimes I have different ideas about how to or what's in it; but when it all comes down to it I support our leaders working on this, Todd, Molly and all the others. Whatever they come up with and they say it is the best they can come up with that will get passed into law I will believe them and support it with all my efforts. Jim.
Kristofferson wrote it and Janis sang it "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:36 PM
Gray Peterson, on 08 February 2011 - 12:22 AM, said:
TriumphRider, on 07 February 2011 - 10:33 PM, said:
Chicago is THE REASON why Illinois doesn't have CCW at this time. WHY do we really care if they opt out or not? The reality is that as long as Chicago is included, the rest of the State is hosed. Leave them to their own means, at their expense. After the rest of the state has CCW, and the resulting drop in crime rate is statisticalized (yeah, I just coined that term) then they will Opt-In. Until then - They deserve to maintain their status quo.
I DO see your point... there are probably 11 folks in Chicago that feel the same as we do...... They need to MOVE. Chicago has been the KEY player in denying our Constitutional Rights, to HE-Double-Hockey-Sticks with them. Let them OPT-OUT, and the rest of the state will be able to exercise our CONSTITUTIONALLLY-Enumerated Right to Self-defense. Chicago will belly-up in a few years..... Until then - Leave them behind.
I DO see your point... there are probably 11 folks in Chicago that feel the same as we do...... They need to MOVE. Chicago has been the KEY player in denying our Constitutional Rights, to HE-Double-Hockey-Sticks with them. Let them OPT-OUT, and the rest of the state will be able to exercise our CONSTITUTIONALLLY-Enumerated Right to Self-defense. Chicago will belly-up in a few years..... Until then - Leave them behind.
There are one hundred THOUSAND FOID card holders in Chicago, not just 11 people. Unbelievable that we're even having this debate.
Does Otis McDonald deserves to have his head kicked in while walking on the street because he happens to live in house that he owns and has already paid for in Chicago? What is this "Chicagoans deserve it" crap? It was Chicagoans who gave you an RKBA right that now applies to the state and local governments now. You should be more thankful that the 4 residents of Chicago, and now numerous handgun permit applicants, are doing their best with what they have. What about Rhonda Ezell, who is disabled and can't exactly leave the city very well since she's disabled and she's in a wheelchair? How about her? What value do you place on the lives of McDonald, Lawson, Orlov, and Ezell? Hmm??
I've fought for numerous years for the ideas of what "equal protection" means. I'm currently fighting for that concept in the state of Colorado right now. Todd already told you that carving out Chicago doesn't gain us votes. Chicago anti-gun politicians don't want to deal with carry and be cooped up in just their city without the "stench of legal gun carriers". They want their concept statewide. We need to kill anti-carry laws statewide. The best way to do so at this point is via legislative enactment or that fails one legislative session post-McDonald, I'm sure a court case can be filed. Remember, Iowa went to shall-issue in 2010 because they knew that if they didn't shape up, the chances were high certain lawyer we're all familiar with here would have likely filed against a hapless sheriff. You know all know who he is.
Don't be a jerk. Do not leave our brothers in Chicago behind. It is our brothers in Chicago who are doing the heavy lifting in terms of the legal war against gun control in the state of Illinois.
Shame on you, Triumph Rider. Shame on you for crapping all over equal protection and fundamental liberties where it matters and counts the most.
WOW!! I'm a Jerk? I'M Crapping "all over equal protection and fundamental liberties"? Maybe in your mind. That's your opinion.
However, the citizens of Chicago have been crapping "all over equal protection and fundamental liberties" of the Citizens in this state that don't reside above I-80 for Decades.
Save your insults/personal attacks for someone who actually cares what you think, please. They cheapen your argument, and reflect badly upon yourself.
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:48 PM
I'd like to know where this "gunhaters live enorth of I80" thing started from. I really would.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes,
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 10:12 PM
Mainly because Chicago is located just North of I-80.
Just take a look at the map.
Just take a look at the map.
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 10:12 PM
TriumphRider, on 07 February 2011 - 10:33 PM, said:
Chicago is THE REASON why Illinois doesn't have CCW at this time. WHY do we really care if they opt out or not? The reality is that as long as Chicago is included, the rest of the State is hosed. Leave them to their own means, at their expense. After the rest of the state has CCW, and the resulting drop in crime rate is statisticalized (yeah, I just coined that term) then they will Opt-In. Until then - They deserve to maintain their status quo.
I can't say you're a jerk... but Chicago drives the economy of the rest of the state. There are probably more active supporters of CCW in Chicago than there are in the entire rest of the state. It's the most American City in the country (but please don't tell too many folks 'cause we really don't want anyone else to know). Yeah... we have some big problems to dispose of but there isn't any more graft and corruption here than there is in almost any small burg in the rest of Illinois. If you wanna live a quality life in a city anywhere on this planet... Chicago is the place to be. It really is.
Give us a bit of a break. We are all gonna get there together. "A house divided... Will not get CCW"
Life is a cooperative venture... That's what makes it work.
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 11:24 PM
TriumphRider, on 08 February 2011 - 10:12 PM, said:
Buzzard, on 08 February 2011 - 09:48 PM, said:
I'd like to know where this "gunhaters live enorth of I80" thing started from. I really would.
Mainly because Chicago is located just North of I-80.
Just take a look at the map.
Understand, I'm not picking a fight with you, because many people use the "North of I-80" reference. There's lot's of rural, gun-loving people North of I-80.
Even if East of I-90 was used, that's a bit more accurate, but still not fair to those gun owners that live in that area.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes,
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda,
they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." — Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
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Political opinions expressed are always my own.
Posted 08 February 2011 - 11:48 PM
ike, on 08 February 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:
guys fighting amongst ourselfs is what they like. I'm sure that the anti"s that troll this site are loving all the aurguments going on here.
__________________
R[∃vo˩]ution
#142
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Posted 09 February 2011 - 08:25 AM
To All,
It just took me a little over an hour to read every post on this topic. I must say that it was very educational and entertaining. I value everyone's thoughts and comments but one thing remains constant in all the discussions..we are all passionate about our God given rights. The degree of how exactly we want the CCW legislation written is going to never be perfect or anti-gun attorney-proof, but Todd and the people working on the bill will certainly include the most they can and still ensure we get the votes to pass. I'm certainly not involved in the decision making, so my support is simply calling my legislators and telling everyone I know to attend IGOLD this year. I know there is another topic addressing IGOLD but for me it is one of the most important events for our CCW movement in Illinois. The legislators may ignor my phone calls and emails, but they can't avoid what will be on their doorstep March 10th! That's just my small input on this topic.
It just took me a little over an hour to read every post on this topic. I must say that it was very educational and entertaining. I value everyone's thoughts and comments but one thing remains constant in all the discussions..we are all passionate about our God given rights. The degree of how exactly we want the CCW legislation written is going to never be perfect or anti-gun attorney-proof, but Todd and the people working on the bill will certainly include the most they can and still ensure we get the votes to pass. I'm certainly not involved in the decision making, so my support is simply calling my legislators and telling everyone I know to attend IGOLD this year. I know there is another topic addressing IGOLD but for me it is one of the most important events for our CCW movement in Illinois. The legislators may ignor my phone calls and emails, but they can't avoid what will be on their doorstep March 10th! That's just my small input on this topic.
Lee Groharing
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Posted 09 February 2011 - 01:11 PM
soundguy, on 08 February 2011 - 10:12 PM, said:
I can't say you're a jerk... but Chicago drives the economy of the rest of the state. There are probably more active supporters of CCW in Chicago than there are in the entire rest of the state. It's the most American City in the country (but please don't tell too many folks 'cause we really don't want anyone else to know). Yeah... we have some big problems to dispose of but there isn't any more graft and corruption here than there is in almost any small burg in the rest of Illinois. If you wanna live a quality life in a city anywhere on this planet... Chicago is the place to be. It really is.
Big Jim
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I will not be commanded,
I will not be controlled
And I will not let my future go on,
without the help of my soul
The Lost Boy - Greg Holden
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I will not be commanded,
I will not be controlled
And I will not let my future go on,
without the help of my soul
The Lost Boy - Greg Holden
#144
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Nip it
Posted 09 February 2011 - 10:25 PM
BigJim, on 09 February 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:
soundguy, on 08 February 2011 - 10:12 PM, said:
I can't say you're a jerk... but Chicago drives the economy of the rest of the state. There are probably more active supporters of CCW in Chicago than there are in the entire rest of the state. It's the most American City in the country (but please don't tell too many folks 'cause we really don't want anyone else to know). Yeah... we have some big problems to dispose of but there isn't any more graft and corruption here than there is in almost any small burg in the rest of Illinois. If you wanna live a quality life in a city anywhere on this planet... Chicago is the place to be. It really is.
I could never get used to working the evening shift myself.
Have all boated who fish? Have all boated who fish?
#145
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Posted 10 February 2011 - 05:06 PM
i wish you guys can get these thoughts and complaints to your rep or reps that will vote no.
In other words until you have hounded your rep til they know you by name, until you have faxed them until their toner runs out, until you have been to their office until they hide from you, stop complaining here and send those complaints to your rep and governor
In other words until you have hounded your rep til they know you by name, until you have faxed them until their toner runs out, until you have been to their office until they hide from you, stop complaining here and send those complaints to your rep and governor
Exodus 22:2-3
If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.
Gun control is not about guns, it's about control. Once they have all the guns, they'll also have complete control.-Abolt
Guns kill people just like beds get girls pregnant.
If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.
Gun control is not about guns, it's about control. Once they have all the guns, they'll also have complete control.-Abolt
Guns kill people just like beds get girls pregnant.
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