Cabela's (and other FFLs)

[Nomad]

Cabela's in Hoffman Estates would not do a deposit to purchase a firearm in advance (which would include the intention to buy) over the phone. The salesman stated that I would have to physically come in twice, once to fill out and sign the paperwork and to have the background check conducted, then a second time to pick up the firearm after the mandatory waiting period.

 

I asked the salesman if this was simply Cabela's policy and how long has this policy been in place? He said that it is state law and has been state law. I disagreed with him and told him that I have purchased numerous firearms from two competitors in Illinois by placing a deposit over the phone in advance which is accepted as an intention to buy, and then physically coming in one time to fill out all the paperwork and pick the gun up after the mandatory waiting period. He was adamant with his information and he told me that those competitors who did this for me were "breaking the law." I adamantly disagreed with him but politely thanked him for his trouble. Actually, I was polite with him the entire time. I didn't call him to argue in the first place, I called to possibly do business with Cabela's.

 

I won't mention names but one of those competitors is outside Cook County, the other is inside. One of them is very reputable and has been in big business for decades that I seriously doubt they would jeopardize their FFL and their business by conducting any illegal sales, especially on multiple transactions. I'm sure the feds and/or the state would have found out by now after thousands of transactions where people placed deposits over the phone and then picked up the gun after the waiting period.

 

In case it was simply the one salesman who wasn't trained properly, I called Cabela's back a few minutes later and I definitely spoke with a different salesman. I tried to be more clear this time in case the first salesman simply misunderstood me and the second salesman confirmed that it was strictly Cabela's policy and not state law.

 

On to a different story regarding another negative experience with Cabela's. Earlier this summer, I took three guns to Cabela's "Gun Library" in Hoffman Estates to see what they would offer me. After they presented their quote to me in writing, I went to GAT Guns in Dundee to see what they would offer. GAT offered me significantly more, $375 more to be exact. So I don't recommend people to sell their guns to Cabela's if they can't get a decent sale through private buyers.

 

In Cabela's defense, I have purchased two guns in the past from them as well as plenty of ammunition when they had ammo sales. Their salespeople have acted professionally, even the ones I talked to today over the phone. Regarding them offering a much lower quote when they buy guns from people, Cabela's is a national retailer so you generally should expect higher prices compared to a local small business like GAT Guns. When I purchased the two guns in the past from Cabela's, I did not attempt to phone my deposit in advance because I was working in their neighborhood at the time so it was not inconvenient at the time. But in general, I live far from most gun shops so I mostly phone in my deposit in advance when I deal with their competitors so that I only have to drive out one time and not have to take two trips. I only found out today about Cabela's gun purchasing policy and I wanted to let IllinoisCarry members know about these two experiences of mine.

[RandyP]

If Cabelas has the policy of only doing business face-to-face, then I reckon they have the right to follow it? Personally I would not care to do business over the phone, I like seeing the cosmetic condition personally before $$ changes hands. I would not be surprised to learn that local large retailers like GAT or Megasports actually sell more firearms than a local Megamart type store and with higher traffic can offer a quicker turnaround on used firearms, so they might be able to offer more?

 

I dunno.

 

As always I support voting with one's wallet, for whatever reason.

[Bud]

The way the law is written is that yoyu are supposed to come in to buy the gun, fill out the 4473 and sign and date the top of page 2. You also have to prodiuce your FOID and then have to run the check on it.

 

Then, 72 hours later, you come in and sign the bottom of page 2 and date it and pick up your handgun.

 

Anything else by an FFL holder is wrong.

 

Capela (Gander, Bass Pro) etc all have the option of high volume sales and can pretty much require sticking to the letter of the law. They are much more likely to have an undercover cop set them up. Pareticularly in Hoffman Estates)

 

The smaller shops who are not as likely to get set up by a cop sting (unless there have been rumors or complaints) and are much more interested in selling as much as possible and are probably going to be more lax.

 

I run into the same thing because I buy a lot off the Internet (where prices are way better). Once the gun ships I rush to my FFL dealer, fill out the 4473, sign and date the top of page 2) and then wait for the gun to arrive. If it's a handgun I still have to wait threee days after I sign/date the 4473.

[Nomad]

If Cabelas has the policy of only doing business face-to-face, then I reckon they have the right to follow it? Personally I would not care to do business over the phone, I like seeing the cosmetic condition personally before $ changes hands.

 

As always I support voting with one's wallet, for whatever reason.

 

I agree that a business has the right to choose to conduct only face-to-face business. That's not my issue. My point was that Cabela's lost a sale today and possibly from other customers in the past by not allowing me to place a deposit over the phone.

 

In regards to seeing the cosmetic condition of the gun you want to buy beforehand, when you place the deposit, it is not an obligation to buy as you have not signed anything and can't sign a document over the phone. They will charge your credit/debit card but only under the intention of providing a deposit to ensure the shop you are serious about buying because they are going to hold the gun for you during the waiting period. Every time I came in to fill out the paperwork and pick up a gun, the shop always let me handle and fully check out the actual gun I was buying before I make the final decision to complete the sale. So there is no risk with doing the deposit method. If after coming in I decide I no longer wish to complete the sale, I may request a refund of my deposit (in the form of a credit to my card). Also, I may even cancel over the phone without having to come in at all.

[Nomad]

The way the law is written is that yoyu are supposed to come in to buy the gun, fill out the 4473 and sign and date the top of page 2. You also have to prodiuce your FOID and then have to run the check on it.

 

Then, 72 hours later, you come in and sign the bottom of page 2 and date it and pick up your handgun.

 

Anything else by an FFL holder is wrong.

 

If that is the case and I am not saying that I disbelieve you, then how are these two shops that I have been a customer for many years able to do the deposit method without issue? I cannot imagine this one particular place that is popular in Chicagoland and has plenty of business would risk their FFL. I'm sure the penalty is severe. This one shop is not an individual running his business out of his house. This is a big fully stocked shop with multiple employees. It's full service. I'm sure they have their own lawyer or two. After phoning in my deposit, I come back 24 hours or 72 hours later and then I fill out the paperwork and then they place the background check call on the spot. As long as I answered all the questions on the form properly and as long as the background check clears within minutes (usually instant in my experience), I pay for the gun and walk out within minutes. Not only have I done this on multiple purchases, other customers have done so as well, including a friend of mine. How has a big place (local, not national) like this been able to avoid prosecution if in fact, it is written law?

 

If these shops have truly been breaking the law all of these years, could I be prosecuted for unknowingly participating? You know, guilty by association?

[GarandFan]

If these shops have truly been breaking the law all of these years, could I be prosecuted for unknowingly participating? You know, guilty by association?

 

Paranoid much?

 

Maybe, yes, who knows. It's not unknowing now, is it?

 

But when I lived in IL, I used to do that all the time with FFLs that I knew. And I didn't worry a damned bit about it. I left the worries up to the FFL dealer. I did what they asked, and that was fine with me.

[Tvandermyde]

Bud -- your wrong.

 

I wrote the change in the law that clarified the Hurtado ruling of the Appealate court that said the waiting period starts once APPLICATION for the firearm has taken place. Application is defined in the law as:

 

"application" means when the buyer and seller reach an agreement to purchase a firearm."

 

The waiting period does NOT start when the background check is run, or when you fill out the 4473. It starts when you make the deal.

[GWBH]

I guess I'm fortunate - my dealer and I reach a price, I fill out the form, show my FOID and pay him, he calls the purchase in for the background check. The whole process takes about 10 minutes.

Then - I wait...

[GarandFan]

Bud -- your wrong.

 

I wrote the change in the law that clarified the Hurtado ruling of the Appealate court that said the waiting period starts once APPLICATION for the firearm has taken place. Application is defined in the law as:

 

"application" means when the buyer and seller reach an agreement to purchase a firearm."

 

The waiting period does NOT start when the background check is run, or when you fill out the 4473. It starts when you make the deal.

 

 

Ah, cool. Then my FFL dealer was doing it by the book, after all!

[Tvandermyde]

Yes Garand. I just had to inform a manufacturer about this. Provided the Court case and a copy of the law.

 

I now call up the dealer, order the gun I want. Then come in, fill out the 4473 and once cleared, walk out the door -- one trip.

 

Dealers are free to run their store the way they want to. I won't tell them HOW to run their store, they are the ones on the line if the paperwork isn't right.

 

I got jerked around by one guy and won't go back.

 

I bought the gun at an auction. I asked store hours and when I could pick it up, he told me the waiting peiod would not start until he called it in. Told him that wasn't the law.

 

My background check came back, but I was outside the 30 days when I went to pick it up, and I lost my FOID card. So I get a new FOID in 5 days -- don't ask. And he makes me fill out a new 4473, which I understand and wait another 3 days. EVen after I gave him the law and case. Then when I come bak the 4th time he still hasn't read the stuff and wants to complain to me about the 800 degree law since he can't sell this new 1911 style 22 coming out. Hmmmm, I'm soppose to run right out and change that, but he won't listen to what the law is about waiting periods. Yea right.

 

As for Cabela's, I'm not thrilled with them and their policy. I went there to order a gun, I get about 1 free one every year from my Cabela's points from my credit card. SO I order a S&W 460 from the custom shop. They guy takes a deposit, won't let me do a 4473 until the gun shows up, and then I still have to wait 3 days.

 

I try and go to the one in Indiana as it is closer to me at work, so I get longguns there that I order with my points and try to get other things there when I can remember to go at lunch.

[bemidji]

Always wondered how this waiting period was actually

supposed to work. This clears it up.

 

Sticky?

[GarandFan]

Yes Garand. ...

 

I now call up the dealer, order the gun I want. Then come in, fill out the 4473 and once cleared, walk out the door -- one trip.

 

Yep, that's exactly what I used to do. I'd inform my FFL that I wanted a particular gun (he did transfers, didn't have an inventory), and then once it arrived, he'd call me. I'd go there, fill out the 4473, and leave with the firearm. Every time. I understood that he made the call before I had arrived, because his part of the FFL was always filled out when I got there.

 

Now I don't have to get a redundant BG check when I buy a gun through an FFL dealer. I just fill out the 4473, show them my carry license, and take the gun with me. It should, of course, be that way with the FOID. As we all know, simply having one means you are BG checked already.

 

And what is it we hear from the IL gun banners? They want to make it as painless as possible for law-abiders to get guns? I think Weis said that after Chicago passed all their latest hoops and hurdles. What a tool.

[Bud]

okay I am wrong,

 

Where is that stated in the statue?

 

I use a number of dealers and they all do it the same way. Even when they receive a gun for me that they did not sell.

[GarandFan]

okay I am wrong,

 

Where is that stated in the statue?

 

This is the first time I have found the LCAV to be useful (hotlinks to statute via the link below, but relevant section pasted far below).

 

http://www.lcav.org/states/illinois.asp#WaitingPeriods

 

Illinois prohibits any person from delivering a firearm prior to the expiration of the statutory waiting periods, which are 24 hours for long guns and 72 hours for handguns. 720 Ill. Comp. Stat. 5/24-3(A)(g). The Department of State Police must approve the transfer or inform the dealer of the applicant's ineligibility within these time periods. 430 Ill. Comp. Stat. 65/3.1; 720 Ill. Comp. Stat. 5/24-3(A)(g). The waiting periods begin to run at the time an application to purchase the firearm is made. Id. "Application" is defined to mean "when a buyer and seller reach an agreement to purchase a firearm." Id. Non-residents of Illinois who purchase long guns at gun shows are not subject to these waiting periods. Id.

[Tvandermyde]

<FONT size=2 face="Courier New">720 ILCS 5/24‑3

Sec. 24‑3. Unlawful Sale of Firearms.

(A) A person commits the offense of unlawful sale of firearms when he or she knowingly does any of the following:

(a) Sells or gives any firearm of a size which may be concealed upon the person to any person under 18 years of age. © Sells or gives any firearm to any narcotic addict. (e) Sells or gives any firearm to any person who has been a patient in a mental hospital within the past 5 years. (g) Delivers any firearm of a size which may be concealed upon the person, incidental to a sale, without withholding delivery of such firearm for at least 72 hours after application for its purchase has been made, or delivers any rifle, shotgun or other long gun, or a stun gun or taser, incidental to a sale, without withholding delivery of such rifle, shotgun or other long gun, or a stun gun or taser for at least 24 hours after application for its purchase has been made. However, this paragraph (g) does not apply to: (1) the sale of a firearm to a law enforcement officer if the seller of the firearm knows that the person to whom he or she is selling the firearm is a law enforcement officer or the sale of a firearm to a person who desires to purchase a firearm for use in promoting the public interest incident to his or her employment as a bank guard, armed truck guard, or other similar employment; (2) a mail order sale of a firearm to a nonresident of Illinois under which the firearm is mailed to a point outside the boundaries of Illinois; (3) the sale of a firearm to a nonresident of Illinois while at a firearm showing or display recognized by the Illinois Department of State Police; or (4) the sale of a firearm to a dealer licensed as a federal firearms dealer under Section 923 of the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (18 U.S.C. 923). For purposes of this paragraph (g), "application" means when the buyer and seller reach an agreement to purchase a firearm. (i) Sells or gives a firearm of any size to any person under 18 years of age who does not possess a valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card. A person "engaged in the business" means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in the activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but does not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms. (k) Sells or transfers ownership of a firearm to a <DIV align=justify>person who does not display to the seller or transferor of the firearm a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card that has previously been issued in the transferee's name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of the Firearm Owners Identification Card Act. This paragraph (k) does not apply to the transfer of a firearm to a person who is exempt from the requirement of possessing a Firearm Owner's Identification Card under Section 2 of the Firearm Owners Identification Card Act. For the purposes of this Section, a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card means (i) a Firearm Owner's Identification Card that has not expired or (ii) if the transferor is licensed as a federal firearms dealer under Section 923 of the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (18 U.S.C. 923), an approval number issued in accordance with Section 3.1 of the Firearm Owners Identification Card Act shall be proof that the Firearm Owner's Identification Card was valid.

[Federal Farmer]

So the two signatures on the 4473 can be dated the same? Makes sense, since there is no Federal waiting period and the 4473 is a Federal form.

[Tvandermyde]

That is what i have done

[THE KING]

That is what i have done

 

Hey Todd

 

Can you provide a link to the court case that forced a change in the law for the waiting period. I personally would like to read it.

 

Secondly, I find it appauling that gun stores infringe on our right as they do. Not to hijack this thread, but here's a little story of my own.

 

Went to Megasports in Plainfield and recently bought an LCP. Followed all the ILCS laws and when we were almost done with the paperwork, the salesman added 30 minutes to the time I was able to pick up my firearm.

 

Now, 72 hours is a pain within it self, but now he just added another 30 minutes on top of that. I pointed out his error and he said the BOSS, wants 30 minutes added because of the clocks the Feds use in Chicago.

 

OMG, I couldn't believe what I was hearing, so, I started to tell him what the law was, and asked him how they felt they could make up their own rules. I knew it wouldn't do any good, but it felt good to vent.

 

When I went in 72 1/2 hours later, we finished the paperwork and they wouldn't give me the LCP at the counter, they had to walk me to the front door. What a Pelosi that was.

 

Anyway, I have decided not to return and patronize their business again. Guess I'll just have to drive a little farther and go to JR'S in Aurora.

[junglebob]

I see, by Todd's post,that if you are a bank guard or armored truck guard the waiting period doesn't apply. I guess the legislature thinks it is more important to protect money from being stolen than for Illinoisans to protect themselves and their families. They of course trust non-residents more than Illinoisans because at a "firearm showing or display" recognized by the ISP they are exempt.

[Hatchet]

when i placed an order online and had shipped to FFL in Oak Lawn, IL... i only went there once and that was to pick up the guns and sign the papers... Guns came in on thursday and i picked up on saturday as he only does drop off and pick ups on weekends...

[abolt243]

That is what i have done

 

Hey Todd

 

Can you provide a link to the court case that forced a change in the law for the waiting period. I personally would like to read it.

 

Secondly, I find it appauling that gun stores infringe on our right as they do. Not to hijack this thread, but here's a little story of my own.

 

Went to Megasports in Plainfield and recently bought an LCP. Followed all the ILCS laws and when we were almost done with the paperwork, the salesman added 30 minutes to the time I was able to pick up my firearm.

 

Now, 72 hours is a pain within it self, but now he just added another 30 minutes on top of that. I pointed out his error and he said the BOSS, wants 30 minutes added because of the clocks the Feds use in Chicago.

 

OMG, I couldn't believe what I was hearing, so, I started to tell him what the law was, and asked him how they felt they could make up their own rules. I knew it wouldn't do any good, but it felt good to vent.

 

When I went in 72 1/2 hours later, we finished the paperwork and they wouldn't give me the LCP at the counter, they had to walk me to the front door. What a Pelosi that was.

 

Anyway, I have decided not to return and patronize their business again. Guess I'll just have to drive a little farther and go to JR'S in Aurora.

 

A way to drive this point home is to send Megasports a copy of the statute, with the pertinent points highlighted in red as Todd has done. Include with the statute a copy of the invoice of the guns you buy from someplace else!! Otherwise, they'll not miss you. Don't send them all at once, but a copy of each one and a listing of the total spent to date.

 

Just to remind them that playing "Madigan (God)" with the laws has consequences.

 

 

AB

[THE KING]

That is what i have done

 

Hey Todd

 

Can you provide a link to the court case that forced a change in the law for the waiting period. I personally would like to read it.

 

Secondly, I find it appauling that gun stores infringe on our right as they do. Not to hijack this thread, but here's a little story of my own.

 

Went to Megasports in Plainfield and recently bought an LCP. Followed all the ILCS laws and when we were almost done with the paperwork, the salesman added 30 minutes to the time I was able to pick up my firearm.

 

Now, 72 hours is a pain within it self, but now he just added another 30 minutes on top of that. I pointed out his error and he said the BOSS, wants 30 minutes added because of the clocks the Feds use in Chicago.

 

OMG, I couldn't believe what I was hearing, so, I started to tell him what the law was, and asked him how they felt they could make up their own rules. I knew it wouldn't do any good, but it felt good to vent.

 

When I went in 72 1/2 hours later, we finished the paperwork and they wouldn't give me the LCP at the counter, they had to walk me to the front door. What a Pelosi that was.

 

Anyway, I have decided not to return and patronize their business again. Guess I'll just have to drive a little farther and go to JR'S in Aurora.

 

A way to drive this point home is to send Megasports a copy of the statute, with the pertinent points highlighted in red as Todd has done. Include with the statute a copy of the invoice of the guns you buy from someplace else!! Otherwise, they'll not miss you. Don't send them all at once, but a copy of each one and a listing of the total spent to date.

 

Just to remind them that playing "Madigan (God)" with the laws has consequences.

 

 

AB

 

 

GOOD IDEA

 

Guess I'll have to stop in next time I'm up that way and personally hand the BOSS a copy of the law and inform him that I will no longer do business with him

 

THANKS

[pyre400]

I think a lot of FFL's could care less... They know they will not get into trouble with the way they interpret things, and unless you show them how their misinterpretation of the law is hurting them, they have no reason to change.

[RandyP]

Just to play 'devil's advocate' with Mega's policy......All it would take is one incident created by an undercover LEO buyer or anti-gunner who picked up a gun UNDER 72 hours....even by 5 minutes....and they could face problems and maybe even risk their FFL.

 

If it were my store I'd play it safe too and hope that customers would not nit-pick the timing, but as always, vote with your wallet as you see fit.

[THE KING]

Just to play 'devil's advocate' with Mega's policy......All it would take is one incident created by an undercover LEO buyer or anti-gunner who picked up a gun UNDER 72 hours....even by 5 minutes....and they could face problems and maybe even risk their FFL.

 

If it were my store I'd play it safe too and hope that customers would not nit-pick the timing, but as always, vote with your wallet as you see fit.

 

 

I also at times play devils advocate and I understand what your saying. BUT, I have purchased other firearms from Mega sports in the past and those purchases were right on the 72 hour requirement. At that time they did not add an extra 30 minutes to the 72 hour requirement as written by law.

 

My concern lies with the fact that Mega sports can change the law as written. Whose to say they can't decide to add 4 hours or 24 hours for that fact to what the ILCS has written. Where does their right to make store policy stop when it comes to the LAW.

 

When you talk about customers nit-picking the timing why shouldn't we. It's not like I was asking that they do anything illegal. I just wanted them to follow the law as written. Not as they want to !!

[pyre400]

When you talk about customers nit-picking the timing why shouldn't we. It's not like I was asking that they do anything illegal. I just wanted them to follow the law as written. Not as they want to !!

 

Both sides may exercise their freedom of choice.... Mega can have a 6mo wait for all I care. Heck, they can even try to charge list price on some of their guns, $25 range fees, and mandate that I use "megasports" branded targets for $1 a piece...

 

If you dont like mega, find a decent FFL that you do like and purchase from them, or from an e-tailer.

 

As frustrating as the whole topic is, you still have lots of options - one being to not give megasports your $.

 

FWIW - the waiting game is a f'n nuisance. I'm certain it has done NOTHING to save anyone's lives. As a criminal, why would you want a legal, and traceable firearm??? I would assume a criminal would want something untraceable unless they were 100% insane. An illegal gun can be had on the street without a waiting period, and without any paper trail.

Then again, if you are 100% insane, you will probably still be 100% insane 1,3, or even 10 days later, at which point your not even legally eligible to own a firearm anyway!

 

If the strict scrutiny ever comes from the recent rulings on the 2A, I would hope that this bullsh!t cooling off period is declared unconstitutional.

[RandyP]

My younger brother lives and works in N/E Indiana. When he wants to buy a new gun, he walks into his local fiorearm emporium, makes his choice, pays his moey and waits for the simple phone call to be completed before leaving WITH his purchase.

 

Of course I realize that folks living outside of Illinois ARE more responsible Americans.......... that is why we get screwed in Illinois....isn't it?

[GarandFan]

My concern lies with the fact that Mega sports can change the law as written. Whose to say they can't decide to add 4 hours or 24 hours for that fact to what the ILCS has written. Where does their right to make store policy stop when it comes to the LAW.

 

I understand your frustration, but it seems misguided to me. The law simply mandates a 72 hour minimum waiting period on a handgun. I'd say your angst should be directed toward the state of Illinois. And another thing to keep in mind is that MegaSports nor no one else is mandated by law to sell you a firearm. No one is to say they can't add 1/2 hour or 4 hours or 24 hours. It's up to them ... and my guess is that standing there with a stopwatch won't help the situation much at all.

 

I am not defending them, nor trying to criticize you. There just seem to be larger fish to fry.

[w00dc4ip]

My younger brother lives and works in N/E Indiana. When he wants to buy a new gun, he walks into his local fiorearm emporium, makes his choice, pays his moey and waits for the simple phone call to be completed before leaving WITH his purchase.

 

Of course I realize that folks living outside of Illinois ARE more responsible Americans.......... that is why we get screwed in Illinois....isn't it?

What's sad is I know someone who works in the Chicago area and usually stays in one of his apartments on the South Side, but also owns (and occasionally even spends a night or two at) a cheap house in Hammond just so his "primary residence" is Indiana. Once or twice I've considered doing the same thing.

[anonymous too]

OMG, I couldn't believe what I was hearing, so, I started to tell him what the law was, and asked him how they felt they could make up their own rules. I knew it wouldn't do any good, but it felt good to vent.

 

It's not them, it's the ATF. Each year after an audit the ATF gives them some kind of "new" rule to follow.

 

I would be curious to know if T.V. can start a sale or transfer over the phone at Mega and make only one trip.