52 replies to this topic

[jfsweeney]

Hello all,
  I spoke to Kenny the other day, and he asked that I post a little of what I told him over the phone.  So here we go....    Anybody who has been following this issue within Winnebago County knows that I have been a supporter of conceal carry laws through my statements in meetings and in the media.  When I joined the conceal carry sub-committee, I was anxious to advance the issue in whatever way it could be done.  In those regards, I feel that we have done some good.  The conversation of conceal carry laws has been increased in the general public, and we have an advisory referendum on the ballot this November (as do several other counties in the state).  
  In addition to these things, we were putting together a resolution to enact conceal carry laws within the County of Winnebago in the hopes that a legal loophole would allow us to do so.  It wasn't long after this resolution was circulated that we were told it would be totally and utterly illegal by our own State's Attorney, Attorney General, and Sheriff.  In other words, those of us supporting conceal carry laws cannot affect any such change to the law here in Winnebago County because it is a state law that governs this issue.  I know that everyone reading this knows these things already.
  This is where I want to be very clear.  I am NOT going to support the Resolution coming to us, and I will be straight up about this.  THIS IS NOT A CONCEAL CARRY RESOLUTION.  The resolution is a re-affirmation of a law that already exists and allows Sheriff Meyers to deputize citizens in certain cases such as extreme traffic situations, natural disasters, and riots.  In other words, it tells the Sheriff that he can do what he already has the power to do, and on top of that we know from numerous public statements that Sheriff Meyers is pro conceal carry.  If this resolution were to pass the full County Board, it would have ZERO impact on the law, and would not in any way, shape, or form achieve the goal of advancing conceal carry legislation.  
  Personally, I am not going to pass such a resolution and then fool myself, or others, that I achieved a victory for the 2nd Amedment as much as I wish I actually could achieve such a victory.  I hope this referendum passes in our county, and in other counties, and that we can continue whatever steps available to us to advance this very important issue.  Best to you all.

John F Sweeney
Co. Board District 14

[Kenny]

Thanks John Now what are the thoughts of the rest of you that have been at this for awhile? Should the board reword the resolution to be against state law or pass a useless resolution OR wait until after Nov. 4th and then move forward with what the majority of Winnebago county voted for, a real concealed carry law & F%$# what the state says because they are more concerned with the constitution.

[RacerDave6]

polhms1, on Oct 11 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

or pass a useless resolution OR wait until after Nov. 4th and then move forward with

Remember many have said (not here) that the 2A resolution was 'not necessary' or 'useless'.

[Kenny]

RacerDave6, on Oct 11 2008, 04:55 PM, said:

polhms1, on Oct 11 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

or pass a useless resolution OR wait until after Nov. 4th and then move forward with

Remember many have said (not here) that the 2A resolution was 'not necessary' or 'useless'.

It basically is useless though according to what John Sweeny has said. It accomplishes nothing.

[mikew]

RacerDave6, on Oct 11 2008, 04:55 PM, said:

polhms1, on Oct 11 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

or pass a useless resolution OR wait until after Nov. 4th and then move forward with

Remember many have said (not here) that the 2A resolution was 'not necessary' or 'useless'.

that's a different resolution, a different matter.

[Kenny]

HELLO!!!! anyone & everyone we need some input before tuesday.

[Mr. Runyon]

I say screw state law. Do what you have to do to get CCW in Illinois/Winnebago county. It's our God given right.

[Board9]

I will follow whatever suggestions the members of illinoiscarry wish. Please let me know what you want done. This is not only for Winnebago County any longer...it is for all of us in the state.

[Black Flag]

Board9, on Oct 11 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

I will follow whatever suggestions the members of illinoiscarry wish. Please let me know what you want done. This is not only for Winnebago County any longer...it is for all of us in the state.

How are you going to support this CCW resolution that you got several other counties to carry?  There more to success than getting it on the ballot.

How are you going to educate the public? Who is going to pay for the yard signs?  What the heck made you think this was a good notion?  Did you check with the NRA or ISRA first?  It was cute when it was one county.  

They did this kind of resolution state-wide in MO and it was a flop.  You did know that, right?

[Kenny]

You guys need to get off Fred's case!!!!! He is trying to get things done right wrong or otherwise. He is not the one doing all this either there are several other board members that would like to get it done NOT STOP IT!!!!!!! And for your information Fred did kick in some money for yard signs if you want to see thm there is a thread somewhere on this site with a pic!!!! You know what I am sick & tired of people bitching about people when they try to get something done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO WONDER POLITICIANS SIT BACK & DO NOTHING!!! It has to be easier to listen to people say you don't do anything rather than bust your ass and have people b**** at you. The board is TRYING and that is a lot more than I can say about most politicians in IL. Maybe everyone should be pist off at the NRA for not returning over 100 calls from different board members & supporters of this asking for some input or help!!!!!! It really disgusts me that for a group of people reaching for the same goal b**** & moan about how other people are going about it!!!!!!!!!! I really am getting sick of all the armchair anylists whining about how people are doing it. I say at least they are trying, they will learn from their mistakes & try a different route next time. If they decide not to I wouldn't blame them one bit all the shitt they are getting from people that are supposed to be their supporters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mikew]

polhms1, on Oct 12 2008, 10:19 AM, said:

[snip]
Maybe everyone should be pist off at the NRA for not returning over 100 calls from different board members & supporters of this asking for some input or help!!!!!!
[/snip]

Interesting.  Was that before or after the Winnebago Co Board sent letters to the other county boards?

[Ol'Coach]

polhms1, on Oct 12 2008, 10:19 AM, said:

You guys need to get off Fred's case!!!!! He is trying to get things done right wrong or otherwise. He is not the one doing all this either there are several other board members that would like to get it done NOT STOP IT!!!!!!! And for your information Fred did kick in some money for yard signs if you want to see thm there is a thread somewhere on this site with a pic!!!! You know what I am sick & tired of people bitching about people when they try to get something done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO WONDER POLITICIANS SIT BACK & DO NOTHING!!! It has to be easier to listen to people say you don't do anything rather than bust your ass and have people b**** at you. The board is TRYING and that is a lot more than I can say about most politicians in IL. Maybe everyone should be pist off at the NRA for not returning over 100 calls from different board members & supporters of this asking for some input or help!!!!!! It really disgusts me that for a group of people reaching for the same goal b**** & moan about how other people are going about it!!!!!!!!!! I really am getting sick of all the armchair anylists whining about how people are doing it. I say at least they are trying, they will learn from their mistakes & try a different route next time. If they decide not to I wouldn't blame them one bit all the shitt they are getting from people that are supposed to be their supporters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He asked, seems to me he got an answer that was just one man's opinion.

What's your gripe?  If you can't take the heat, stay outta the kictchen!

[Ol'Coach]

...and since he asked:

Strictly an opinion, not looking for an argument!

I have questioned the value of a RTC resolution in any individual county from the time I learned of it being considered in Winnebago County.

How would it be administered? Who would issue permits and on what basis would permits be issued? Background checks?...who would do them, and how? What funding? What issues would a Winnebago citizen face if stopped by ISP while carrying concealed? (time, money, stress)

Someone suggested “deputize”. On what basis would that be done? Who would/should qualify? Once “deputized,” just what authority what each “deputy” have? Would whatever code already written apply, or would amendments need to be made?

If this were done in several Illinois counties, what would be the resultant mess? (Ask the firearms owners of Iowa about their “May Issue” carry laws! This would be even worse!)

Opposed to the idea, I raised basically these same questions when this was first presented on Illinoiscarry.com.

Don’t misunderstand me, please! I appreciate the desire of a few of the good people of Winnebago County to have their 2A rights recognized, even if only for themselves. Mr. Sweeny, might be correct when he states, “In those regards, I feel that we have done some good. The conversation of conceal carry laws has been increased in the general public…” My question remains, that because only 9.5% of the Illinois population have FOID cards, just who have we made aware of the CC debate? And, while it may be true that, “… and we have an advisory referendum on the ballot this November (as do several other counties in the state.),” IMO that is not a good thing. I sincerely would like to be proven wrong, but I fear we’re going to take a hit from that!

For me, it’s not a matter of hindsight when I state that I feel that time, effort, and money would have been better spent toward electing members of the GA that would support our grassroots movement.

[Kenny]

mikew, on Oct 12 2008, 10:37 AM, said:

polhms1, on Oct 12 2008, 10:19 AM, said:

[snip]
Maybe everyone should be pist off at the NRA for not returning over 100 calls from different board members & supporters of this asking for some input or help!!!!!!
[/snip]

Interesting.  Was that before or after the Winnebago Co Board sent letters to the other county boards?

Long before, during, and after!!!

[Ol'Coach]

polhms1, on Oct 12 2008, 11:31 AM, said:

mikew, on Oct 12 2008, 10:37 AM, said:

polhms1, on Oct 12 2008, 10:19 AM, said:

[snip]
Maybe everyone should be pist off at the NRA for not returning over 100 calls from different board members & supporters of this asking for some input or help!!!!!!
[/snip]

Interesting.  Was that before or after the Winnebago Co Board sent letters to the other county boards?

Long before, during, and after!!!

I wonder why they ignored it?

Might the fact that this is an effort by a few citizens in one county in one of the 2 states not providing some type of statewide carry law whatsoever, and there is an election coming up, + a couple of lawsuits, have anything to do with it?

[Kenny]

Quote

this is an effort by a few citizens in one county in one of the 2 states not providing some type of statewide carry law whatsoever

That would be a good enough reason for me. But I see your point coach they probably don't have enough money to send someone here for a meeting or 2 just to see what is going on even though they have a full time employee of the NRA within 2 hours of Rockford. They are probably having money trouble sending me all the requests for money 2-3 times a week at $.43 a pop. That has got to get expensive and time consuming trying to raise money, then to have to spend it on something the whole organization was founded on, that would be silly.

[Don Gwinn]

Allow me to summarize:

1.  The resolution to create concealed carry in Winnebago County has failed.  The version that would be passed at this point would not establish concealed carry, but instead would allow the sheriff to deputize citizens--but the sheriff already has that power, so nothing would be gained.

2.  The advisory referendum on concealed carry statewide is still on several ballots around the state.

3.  John has decided that he will not vote for the redundant version of the CCW resolution, because it would be a symbolic gesture at best.  

4.  Fred has asked us what the members of IllinoisCarry would like him to do about the CCW resolution (NOT the advisory referendum, but the CCW resolution that John has told us has been effectively defeated by state law.)

At that point, the train went off the rails because asking what "IllinoisCarry" thinks is asking for a dozen different opinions and a shouting match.  Some of us responded that we're angry that the resolution was advanced in the first place.  Others are angry that those people didn't like the resolution back then.  Others are angry that an advisory referendum was put on the ballot.  Others are angry that the NRA didn't support the Winnebago County CCW effort enough, still others are angry that the NRA is being blamed for the failure of the Winnebago County resolution.

Through all that noise and flying fur, the question remains:  "What shall we do with the Winnebago County CCW resolution?"

That's the question Fred asked.  The rest of the noise about referendums, the NRA and whatever else is just noise at this moment, because it doesn't answer Fred's question.  I may have missed a few, but I only saw one person give an actual answer to that question.  Mr. Runyon said "I say screw state law. Do what you have to do to get CCW in Illinois/Winnebago county. It's our God given right."

That's not my answer, mind you, but at least it is an answer to the question at hand.

My answer is this:
If you're asking me what to do with the CCW resolution, I say scrap it.  Let's think it through logically.  What do we have to gain or lose?
If the resolution passes, what do we gain?  Well, we gain nothing.  State law has us trumped.  Back when it seemed that the Board as a whole had itself steeled to fight the state on this in court, it looked possible that we could end up gaining CCW in Winnebago, and even a loss in the courts could have raised awareness of CCW as an issue.  With this wording, there's nothing even to fight over.  In truth, that may not have been the greatest strategy in the first place, but either way, it isn't going to happen now.  

So I say scrap it and get to work framing the issue.  If you let this resolution die, the simple truth is on your side--"We tried to comply with the Constitution, we wanted concealed carry rights for our citizens, but the state of Illinois won't allow it and for now they have all the power.  Their law trumps ours."  That message keeps the issue of CCW alive, and yet it allows the Board members to keep whatever credit they had coming for supporting the resolution.  Give people a choice between being upset at the county board and being upset at Illinois state government and let them decide who they blame for keeping them unarmed.  Make it an issue.

Admitting that an effort has failed doesn't have to imply that the people who worked at it were foolish or acting in bad faith.  It didn't work; simple as that.

You don't know how tempted I am to say "And as for all the fighting about the NRA and the Missouri referendum . . . . " but I won't, because that stuff isn't going to help.  Even though my opinions on it would be brilliant.

[Board9]

I sure appreciate all the support I am getting from some of you here. Don, you are right, I am seeking suggestions on what my friends here at illinoiscarry think....when is the last time an elected official has done that with sincerity? I too am disgusted with all the negative armchair quarterbacks but I have thick skin and will state my opinions when I think they are needed. As for the Winnebago County Sub Committee.....John is only one of 4, his voice has been heard and I respect him for doing so. He is right, after reading over the resolution that has been submitted....it is a joke at best. I wish there would have been a 5 member sub committee to offset a tie and that I would have been on there as a voice from YOU but that didn't happen and such is life. I for one do not believe this resolution as written will leave the committee that would bring it to the floor. OUR WORK NOW IS TO GET THE REFERENDUM PASSED!!!!!!!!!!! Can we have your cooperation to do this? Kenny is right, I did donate towards the signs as well as him and others. We put our money where our mouths are and do it for all of us, not for recognition but for pride in knowing we are doing our part. Thank you all for caring enough to be passionate but keep your eye on the prize.

[junglebob]

Board9, on Oct 12 2008, 02:39 PM, said:

I sure appreciate all the support I am getting from some of you here. Don, you are right, I am seeking suggestions on what my friends here at illinoiscarry think....when is the last time an elected official has done that with sincerity? I too am disgusted with all the negative armchair quarterbacks but I have thick skin and will state my opinions when I think they are needed. As for the Winnebago County Sub Committee.....John is only one of 4, his voice has been heard and I respect him for doing so. He is right, after reading over the resolution that has been submitted....it is a joke at best. I wish there would have been a 5 member sub committee to offset a tie and that I would have been on there as a voice from YOU but that didn't happen and such is life. I for one do not believe this resolution as written will leave the committee that would bring it to the floor. OUR WORK NOW IS TO GET THE REFERENDUM PASSED!!!!!!!!!!! Can we have your cooperation to do this? Kenny is right, I did donate towards the signs as well as him and others. We put our money where our mouths are and do it for all of us, not for recognition but for pride in knowing we are doing our part. Thank you all for caring enough to be passionate but keep your eye on the prize.

Fred, Is it possible to offer an amendment to the resolution before it goes to a vote?   Something removing the part about license holders being auxillary deputies?   Making people auxillary deputies only allows them to carry when performing official duties anyway, so this doesn't actually give them the legal right to carry at all times.  A statement about how this amendment is necessary, as the resolution as now worded is not in line with the original intent of the resolution framers, might bring up some useful discussion.    Maybe it can yet be changed?

[Board9]

Not being part of the committee I am not sure, that would be a question to ask John...see is original message and write to him. Maybe that is possible.

[Ol'Coach]

Don Gwinn, on Oct 12 2008, 12:24 PM, said:

Allow me to summarize:

1.  The resolution to create concealed carry in Winnebago County has failed.  The version that would be passed at this point would not establish concealed carry, but instead would allow the sheriff to deputize citizens--but the sheriff already has that power, so nothing would be gained.

2.  The advisory referendum on concealed carry statewide is still on several ballots around the state.

3.  John has decided that he will not vote for the redundant version of the CCW resolution, because it would be a symbolic gesture at best.  

4.  Fred has asked us what the members of IllinoisCarry would like him to do about the CCW resolution (NOT the advisory referendum, but the CCW resolution that John has told us has been effectively defeated by state law.)

At that point, the train went off the rails because asking what "IllinoisCarry" thinks is asking for a dozen different opinions and a shouting match.  Some of us responded that we're angry that the resolution was advanced in the first place.  Others are angry that those people didn't like the resolution back then.  Others are angry that an advisory referendum was put on the ballot.  Others are angry that the NRA didn't support the Winnebago County CCW effort enough, still others are angry that the NRA is being blamed for the failure of the Winnebago County resolution.

Through all that noise and flying fur, the question remains:  "What shall we do with the Winnebago County CCW resolution?"

That's the question Fred asked.  The rest of the noise about referendums, the NRA and whatever else is just noise at this moment, because it doesn't answer Fred's question.  I may have missed a few, but I only saw one person give an actual answer to that question.  Mr. Runyon said "I say screw state law. Do what you have to do to get CCW in Illinois/Winnebago county. It's our God given right."

That's not my answer, mind you, but at least it is an answer to the question at hand.

My answer is this:
If you're asking me what to do with the CCW resolution, I say scrap it.  Let's think it through logically.  What do we have to gain or lose?
If the resolution passes, what do we gain?  Well, we gain nothing.  State law has us trumped.  Back when it seemed that the Board as a whole had itself steeled to fight the state on this in court, it looked possible that we could end up gaining CCW in Winnebago, and even a loss in the courts could have raised awareness of CCW as an issue.  With this wording, there's nothing even to fight over.  In truth, that may not have been the greatest strategy in the first place, but either way, it isn't going to happen now.  

So I say scrap it and get to work framing the issue.  If you let this resolution die, the simple truth is on your side--"We tried to comply with the Constitution, we wanted concealed carry rights for our citizens, but the state of Illinois won't allow it and for now they have all the power.  Their law trumps ours."  That message keeps the issue of CCW alive, and yet it allows the Board members to keep whatever credit they had coming for supporting the resolution.  Give people a choice between being upset at the county board and being upset at Illinois state government and let them decide who they blame for keeping them unarmed.  Make it an issue.

Admitting that an effort has failed doesn't have to imply that the people who worked at it were foolish or acting in bad faith.  It didn't work; simple as that.

You don't know how tempted I am to say "And as for all the fighting about the NRA and the Missouri referendum . . . . " but I won't, because that stuff isn't going to help.  Even though my opinions on it would be brilliant.

Quote

For me, it’s not a matter of hindsight when I state that I feel that time, effort, and money would have been better spent toward electing members of the GA that would support our grassroots movement.

I thought my reasons stated clearly my answer.  Since apparently not...

Scrap the resolution.

[lockman]

jfsweeney, on Oct 11 2008, 10:21 AM, said:

Hello all,

  Personally, I am not going to pass such a resolution and then fool myself, or others, that I achieved a victory for the 2nd Amedment as much as I wish I actually could achieve such a victory.  I hope this referendum passes in our county, and in other counties, and that we can continue whatever steps available to us to advance this very important issue.  Best to you all.

John F Sweeney
Co. Board District 14

If the county will not pass a firearm carry statute because of state law, how about a stronger resolution worded to the effect:

Whereas, The right to life and defense thereof; is a fundamental human right.

Whereas, The Bill of rights amended to our Constitution recognizes individual rights and prohibits infringement by government.

Whereas,  The Supreme Court of the United States has upheld the individual right to keep and bear arms for self defense and other lawful purposes.

Whereas, The current laws of the state of Illinois prohibit citizens from bearing arms, concealed or openly for the defense of life, liberty and property, except while on your own property.

Whereas, Citizens and travelers in and through Illinois are deprived of their basic civil rights and are left to the mercy of rapists, robbers, murderers and other nefarious highwaymen.

Be it Resolved, the Illinois legislature should act immediately to restore the civil rights of citizens to bear arms in defense of life in any location within the state where citizens have a lawful right to be.

Be it further Resolved, The legislature should remove restrictions and prohibitions allowing citizens engaged in intrastate and interstate travel to have access to operable firearms for personal defense. The Illinois legislature must act to protect these basic human rights and  prohibit local units of government from infringing upon our civil rights.

[ewellnitz]

I say scrap the current one.  I also think the referendum on the ballot in some counties is going to hurt us more than it will help.  

Our efforts need to focus on either saying dam* the state law and do it anyway or we need to focus on finding, supporting na dcampaigning for house and senate members that support our cause.

I applaud the efforts everyone has put forth but the effort may have been better utilized by campaigning for house and senate members that are on our side.

[bob]

The legislation pending before the county board serves no real purpose other than to allow for an unlimited number of auxiliary deputies who can only carry in uniform while performing some kind of auxiliary police work. It does nothing for anyone who wants to conceal carry at all. I think the best thing to do is somehow table it for now and let it die.

I think some legal work to determine just what home rule allows counties to do might be in order.

The referendum is something else. While advisory in nature, it sends a message. It may well fail. Nothing can be done about it anyway.

The whole thing is not going to go away. The 2A is going to get incorporated, maybe within the next 6 months. If not the Nordyke case, than the Chicago case. Its just really a waiting game at this point. Once the 2A applies to the states, its really a short trip to getting some kind of carry out of it.

It won't do us any good in time for the Obama election riots (win or lose), but hopefully we will not be in the worst of that. Whoever becomes president is going to have one heck of an economic disaster to try and deal with, and a year or two down the road we may need CC a whole lot more than we do now, and we will probably be in a better position legally.

[bob]

Mr. Runyon, on Oct 11 2008, 07:55 PM, said:

I say screw state law. Do what you have to do to get CCW in Illinois/Winnebago county. It's our God given right.

Perhaps, but I am not sure the county has the legal authority to enact a law to make something legal that the state has declared to be illegal.

[Board9]

May I ask how it works in Chicago when the elected officials can carry?

[lockman]

Board9, on Oct 13 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

May I ask how it works in Chicago when the elected officials can carry?

Local elected officials are concidered peace officers under illinois law.

You should ask the States Attorney what the current requirements are.

(Chicago aldermen were exempt from many of the changes to the peace officer statutes)

[Don Gwinn]

The referendum is on the ballot.  You can either help it pass or help it fail.  You could argue about whether it should be on the ballot, but it's like arguing about whether McCain should be the Republican nominee.  He IS the nominee.  The referendum IS on the ballot.

[Buzzard]

Board9, on Oct 13 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

May I ask how it works in Chicago when the elected officials can carry?

They are basically being deputized as law enforcement, Fred. Which was the problem all along. If you deputize citizens to carry concealed weapons in plain clothes while performing some sort of "keeping the peace" assignment is trouble waiting to happen. The first time a shot was fired from said "deputy" a civil lawsuit would be filed against the county. Right or wrong, that's what would happen.

This is the wrong way to get concealed carry in Illinois. Which, by the way, is also putting public referendums on the ballot. I'm organizing a Town Hall meeting in Ogle, but at this late hour, cannot find many speakers. Thank goodness, MikeW here from this board has stepped up. We are also not being charged for the hall, fortunately. It should be considered by some, that not all of us are flush in cash, and able to shovel money at a problem.

I'm doing what I can here in Ogle, but let me once again say, fourteen counties have a voter question on the ballot.

This is no longer just a Winnebago problem, quit pretending that it is.

[ewellnitz]

Don Gwinn, on Oct 13 2008, 06:33 PM, said:

The referendum is on the ballot.  You can either help it pass or help it fail.  You could argue about whether it should be on the ballot, but it's like arguing about whether McCain should be the Republican nominee.  He IS the nominee.  The referendum IS on the ballot.

Just because I don't think it is going to help doesn't mean I am not doing everything I can to get it passed.  

The people voted for McCain to be on the ballot.