31 replies to this topic

[Chris]

Here it is folks, this will be going to one more sub-committee meeting then to the Executive Committee Meeting for final approval before the Full County Board.

Please find any faults in it.

 EXEC_ConcealedCarry.doc   67K   259 downloads

 EXEC_ConcealedCarry.pdf   31.53K   215 downloads

[Buzzard]

Cannot open. I don't have Microsoft office.

[billzfx4]

I like it!!

A few ?'s:
1)NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, by the County Board of the County of Winnebago, Illinois that pursuant to 55 ILCS 5/3 6012, it consents to the Winnebago County Sheriff appointing Auxiliary Deputies (the number to be determined at a later date).
--How will the number be determined and by who?  If other counties adopt this, could this possibly leave the door open for only certain well connected people to be accepted?

2) In addition to the requirements in Section I, an Applicant shall demonstrate competence with a handgun by any one of the following:
iv. Possession of a current valid license to carry a concealed weapon issued by a Law Enforcement officer.
--Am I correct in understanding that a PA. or NH. non-resident permit would be acceptable?

3) A current and valid concealed handgun permit issued by another State or Illinois County shall be deemed to be valid within Winnebago County.
--If I was to visit Winnebago Co. as a non-resident, would my PA. permit be recognized?

[Chris]

Buzzard, on Sep 30 2008, 09:20 AM, said:

Cannot open. I don't have Microsoft office.

I updated the original post to included a PDF version.

[Kenny]

billzfx4, on Sep 30 2008, 09:37 AM, said:

I like it!!

A few ?'s:
1)NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, by the County Board of the County of Winnebago, Illinois that pursuant to 55 ILCS 5/3 6012, it consents to the Winnebago County Sheriff appointing Auxiliary Deputies (the number to be determined at a later date).
--How will the number be determined and by who?  If other counties adopt this, could this possibly leave the door open for only certain well connected people to be accepted? I think they had to put that in there to satisfy the requirements of the current law they are trying to manipulate.

2) In addition to the requirements in Section I, an Applicant shall demonstrate competence with a handgun by any one of the following:
iv. Possession of a current valid license to carry a concealed weapon issued by a Law Enforcement officer.
--Am I correct in understanding that a PA. or NH. non-resident permit would be acceptable? I think that is what they were shooting for with this part.

3) A current and valid concealed handgun permit issued by another State or Illinois County shall be deemed to be valid within Winnebago County.
--If I was to visit Winnebago Co. as a non-resident, would my PA. permit be recognized? I think yes

[Kaeghl]

Looks good, overall.

I noticed that the provision in the original 'working copy' about notifying an officer approaching in an official manner or duty isn't in this final resolution.  

This could be good and/or bad. Weighing the right of personal privacy and avoiding harrassment by possibly uninformed LEO's against the 'oopsie' factor of the reaction of the LEO discovering that I'm packing if I were to be Terry-searched for what ever reason.

Personally, for the first few months of this, IF I were stopped/approached, I believe I would let the officer know in a VERY non-aggresive way, that I'm packing, legally. Or not, depending on the situation. Judgement calls all around on this point.

And they're taking the "Auxiliary Deputy" tack for this? For some reason, I like that, simply because my dad was an 'auxiliary deputy/special deputy' for Winn Co. a long time ago. Hell, he was heavily recruited by every law enforcement agency from Chicago to St Louis to either head up the detective squads or step in as chief of police. Hizzoner the mayor of Rockford called the house about 6 times, IIRC.

[burningspear]

1.  I do not understand the inclusion of a consent by the board to the appointment of auxiliary deputies because that has nothing to do with concealed carry 24/7 by an ordinary person.  

2.  The power of owners, lessors, or lessees to bar concealed carry permit holders from their premises needs to be coupled with a signage requirement.  A small scribbled or printed card taped to a cluttered window of some retail establishment would certainly not be the kind of clear notification that should be given to a permittee to warn the person not to entered the premises.  Proper notification is needed to avoid confusion and to prevent inadvertent breach of the county concealed carry ordinance by a peaceful consumer.

[bob]

What law permits auxilliary deputies to carry off duty?

[abolt243]

burningspear, on Sep 30 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

1.  I do not understand the inclusion of a consent by the board to the appointment of auxiliary deputies because that has nothing to do with concealed carry 24/7 by an ordinary person.  

2.  The power of owners, lessors, or lessees to bar concealed carry permit holders from their premises needs to be coupled with a signage requirement.  A small scribbled or printed card taped to a cluttered window of some retail establishment would certainly not be the kind of clear notification that should be given to a permittee to warn the person not to entered the premises.  Proper notification is needed to avoid confusion and to prevent inadvertent breach of the county concealed carry ordinance by a peaceful consumer.

I agree with this point.  There needs to be a standardized sign that is to be posted at the entrance(s) to the premises.  Premises would not include parking lots, garages or grounds.  You should be able to drive into the lot, secure your firearm in your vehicle and enter the premises if you choose to.  The sign posted needs to be substantial, say a white sign, 11"X14" with red lettering not less than 1" tall.  The wording shall be "Concealed firearms are prohibited" or some such wordage.  If the sign is not per the law, it is not valid.   I don't see the penalty for carrying into posted areas, but it should be "asked to leave the premises.  If the person doesn't leave, the police are called, the person is cited for a misdemeanor trespassing, not to exceed a $100 fine."  or some such thing.


JMHO
AB

[highspeed]

i don`t know of any law that allows Auxillary of any kind to carry "off Duty" I was an Auxillary police officer and they always reminded us that we could not carry unless we were in uniform doing our job.

[abolt243]

highspeed, on Sep 30 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

i don`t know of any law that allows Auxillary of any kind to carry "off Duty" I was an Auxillary police officer and they always reminded us that we could not carry unless we were in uniform doing our job.

Sing it Highspeed!!!  They ain't listening.

[burningspear]

highspeed, on Sep 30 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

i don`t know of any law that allows Auxillary of any kind to carry "off Duty" I was an Auxillary police officer and they always reminded us that we could not carry unless we were in uniform doing our job.

The reason you don't know of such a law is because there is no such law.

[Kenny]

Our uniform will be plain clothes & we will be on duty whenever we leave the house. We have the highest crime rate per capita than anywhere in IL so there is something in the law that states "extreme circumstances" & that is what they are trying to use also. I think.

[lockman]

highspeed, on Sep 30 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

i don`t know of any law that allows Auxillary of any kind to carry "off Duty" I was an Auxillary police officer and they always reminded us that we could not carry unless we were in uniform doing our job.

That depends on what your duties are and if plain clothes are your uniform.

I don't think it was the right move to make but if it gets the issue into the public debate it can serve a purpose.

[Gooch]

abolt243, on Sep 30 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

burningspear, on Sep 30 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

1.  I do not understand the inclusion of a consent by the board to the appointment of auxiliary deputies because that has nothing to do with concealed carry 24/7 by an ordinary person.  

2.  The power of owners, lessors, or lessees to bar concealed carry permit holders from their premises needs to be coupled with a signage requirement.  A small scribbled or printed card taped to a cluttered window of some retail establishment would certainly not be the kind of clear notification that should be given to a permittee to warn the person not to entered the premises.  Proper notification is needed to avoid confusion and to prevent inadvertent breach of the county concealed carry ordinance by a peaceful consumer.

I agree with this point.  There needs to be a standardized sign that is to be posted at the entrance(s) to the premises.  Premises would not include parking lots, garages or grounds.  You should be able to drive into the lot, secure your firearm in your vehicle and enter the premises if you choose to.  The sign posted needs to be substantial, say a white sign, 11"X14" with red lettering not less than 1" tall.  The wording shall be "Concealed firearms are prohibited" or some such wordage.  If the sign is not per the law, it is not valid.   I don't see the penalty for carrying into posted areas, but it should be "asked to leave the premises.  If the person doesn't leave, the police are called, the person is cited for a misdemeanor trespassing, not to exceed a $100 fine."  or some such thing.


JMHO
AB

I'm on board with this as well. I think it's imperative to define the penalty after being "asked to leave"

Gooch

[Gooch]

Does the following mean that those of us with non-resident permits from other states qualify under these guidelines? Also, it looks to me like the "40" hour minimum training requirement has been removed?

XIII. Possession of a current and valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall constitute sufficient evidence of the background check required pursuant to 18 USC 922(t).  A current and valid concealed handgun permit issued by another State or Illinois County shall be deemed to be valid within Winnebago County.  An out-of-state permit holder carrying a concealed handgun pursuant to this Paragraph is bound by the laws of this County regarding carrying a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued in accordance with this Section.

Your take as well anybody?

Gooch

[abolt243]

Gooch, on Sep 30 2008, 01:54 PM, said:

Does the following mean that those of us with non-resident permits from other states qualify under these guidelines? Also, it looks to me like the "40" hour minimum training requirement has been removed?

XIII. Possession of a current and valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall constitute sufficient evidence of the background check required pursuant to 18 USC 922(t).  A current and valid concealed handgun permit issued by another State or Illinois County shall be deemed to be valid within Winnebago County.  An out-of-state permit holder carrying a concealed handgun pursuant to this Paragraph is bound by the laws of this County regarding carrying a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued in accordance with this Section.

Your take as well anybody?

Gooch

Gooch, read post #5.

[Kaeghl]

abolt243, on Sep 30 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

I agree with this point.  There needs to be a standardized sign that is to be posted at the entrance(s) to the premises.  Premises would not include parking lots, garages or grounds.  You should be able to drive into the lot, secure your firearm in your vehicle and enter the premises if you choose to.  The sign posted needs to be substantial, say a white sign, 11"X14" with red lettering not less than 1" tall.  The wording shall be "Concealed firearms are prohibited" or some such wordage.  If the sign is not per the law, it is not valid.   I don't see the penalty for carrying into posted areas, but it should be "asked to leave the premises.  If the person doesn't leave, the police are called, the person is cited for a misdemeanor trespassing, not to exceed a $100 fine."  or some such thing.


JMHO
AB

That sounds like a good idea, but just for chits and grins, (and to provide a source of income for the county), why not make it mandatory that the signs must be larger, say about 24"x36", permanently affixed to the building at about 40" from the floor to the bottom of the sign (easy reading eye height), and only available from the county. Commercially produced and non-Winn. Co. issued signs are illegal and have no legal standing.

For a nominal fee. Renewable yearly. It wouldn't be that hard to stamp a registration number code on the signs.

And just to make it perfectly legal in all respects, these signs must be affixed to the building at ALL possible entrances. That way, if a customer were to enter a business at the loading dock, vehicle maintainence area or side entrance, the LTC holder would know the area is a noncarry area. IF caught on premises with firearm, and didn't leave nicely, THEN it's a slam-dunk for misdemeanor trespassing.

Just a thought put up for discussion or tromping on. Enjoy

[Molly B.]

I don't see a fee . . . or how long the license would be good??


Free and for life?

[Gooch]

Molly B., on Sep 30 2008, 02:07 PM, said:

I don't see a fee . . . or how long the license would be good??


Free and for life?

Ahhhhhh yes, the way it's supposed to be Molly!

I like the way you think  

Gooch

[Gooch]

Gooch, read post #5.


Arrrrrg!

If it were a snake it would have bit me!

Thanks

[abolt243]

Kaeghl, on Sep 30 2008, 02:01 PM, said:

abolt243, on Sep 30 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

I agree with this point.  There needs to be a standardized sign that is to be posted at the entrance(s) to the premises.  Premises would not include parking lots, garages or grounds.  You should be able to drive into the lot, secure your firearm in your vehicle and enter the premises if you choose to.  The sign posted needs to be substantial, say a white sign, 11"X14" with red lettering not less than 1" tall.  The wording shall be "Concealed firearms are prohibited" or some such wordage.  If the sign is not per the law, it is not valid.   I don't see the penalty for carrying into posted areas, but it should be "asked to leave the premises.  If the person doesn't leave, the police are called, the person is cited for a misdemeanor trespassing, not to exceed a $100 fine."  or some such thing.


JMHO
AB

That sounds like a good idea, but just for chits and grins, (and to provide a source of income for the county), why not make it mandatory that the signs must be larger, say about 24"x36", permanently affixed to the building at about 40" from the floor to the bottom of the sign (easy reading eye height), and only available from the county. Commercially produced and non-Winn. Co. issued signs are illegal and have no legal standing.

For a nominal fee. Renewable yearly. It wouldn't be that hard to stamp a registration number code on the signs.

And just to make it perfectly legal in all respects, these signs must be affixed to the building at ALL possible entrances. That way, if a customer were to enter a business at the loading dock, vehicle maintainence area or side entrance, the LTC holder would know the area is a noncarry area. IF caught on premises with firearm, and didn't leave nicely, THEN it's a slam-dunk for misdemeanor trespassing.

Just a thought put up for discussion or tromping on. Enjoy

Kaeghl,

I like that.  If you make the sign big enough, and obtrusive enough, and attach a fee, and make it a little bit of a PITA to do, maybe several folks would just say to heck with it.  

Good idea.  Needs to be incorporated into any state-wide LTC laws that get introduced.
AB

[w00dc4ip]

Quote

VII. No concealed handgun permit shall be valid or entitle any Permittee to carry a concealed weapon in any facility, building, location, zone, or area in which firearms are banned by State or Federal law.

May be rehashing an old question here, but couldn't an ISP officer arrest someone carrying in Winnebago and claim that even with their Winnebago CC permit, the entire state bans concealed weapons, therefore the Winnebago CC permit, issued under these rules, says nothing?

[abolt243]

w00dc4ip, on Sep 30 2008, 04:14 PM, said:

Quote

VII. No concealed handgun permit shall be valid or entitle any Permittee to carry a concealed weapon in any facility, building, location, zone, or area in which firearms are banned by State or Federal law.

May be rehashing an old question here, but couldn't an ISP officer arrest someone carrying in Winnebago and claim that even with their Winnebago CC permit, the entire state bans concealed weapons, therefore the Winnebago CC permit, issued under these rules, says nothing?

Yep, that's a rehash.  It's been covered in one of the many threads on this subject.  I'm sure someone will kick in here with Winne's answer to it.  I believe that they expect that very thing to happen, then to go to the courts to uphold the right of the County to issue licenses for the county.  For the record, I agree with your interpretation.  Others don't.

Let's see what happens here:  

[Lou]

Quote

65 ILCS 5/3.1 30 20) (from Ch. 24, par. 3.1 30 20)
  
Sec. 3.1 30 20. Auxiliary police officers.
  
(a) Auxiliary police officers shall not be members of the regular police department of the municipality. Auxiliary police officers shall not supplement members of the regular police department of any municipality in the performance of their assigned and normal duties, except as otherwise provided in this Code. Auxiliary police officers shall only be assigned to perform the following duties in a municipality: (i) to aid or direct traffic within the municipality, (ii) to aid in control of natural or man made disasters, and (iii) to aid in case of civil disorder as directed by the chief of police. When it is impractical for members of the regular police department to perform those normal and regular police duties, however, the chief of police of the regular police department may assign auxiliary police officers to perform those normal and regular police duties. Identification symbols worn by auxiliary police officers shall be different and distinct from those used by members of the regular police department. Auxiliary police officers shall at all times during the performance of their duties be subject to the direction and control of the chief of police of the municipality. Auxiliary police officers shall not carry firearms, except with the permission of the chief of police and while in uniform and in the performance of their duties. Auxiliary police officers, when on duty, shall also be conservators of the peace and shall have the powers specified in Section 3.1 15 25.
  
( Auxiliary police officers, before entering upon any of their duties, shall receive a course of training in the use of weapons and other police procedures appropriate for the exercise of the powers conferred upon them under this Code. The training and course of study shall be determined and provided by the corporate authorities of each municipality employing auxiliary police officers. Before being permitted to carry a firearm, however, an auxiliary police officer must have the same course of training as required of peace officers under Section 2 of the Peace Officer Firearm Training Act. The municipal authorities may require that all auxiliary police officers be residents of the municipality served by them. Before the appointment of an auxiliary police officer, the person's fingerprints shall be taken, and no person shall be appointed as an auxiliary police officer if that person has been convicted of a felony or other crime involving moral turpitude.
    © The Line of Duty Compensation Act shall be applicable to auxiliary police officers upon their death in the line of duty described in this Code.
(Source: P.A. 94 984, eff. 6 30 06.)

I think the Auxiliary statute needs to be looked at with a critical eye.   Note the Identification symbols worn by auxiliary police officers requirement.  

A few years ago they added:  Before being permitted to carry a firearm, however, an auxiliary police officer must have the same course of training as required of peace officers under Section 2 of the Peace Officer Firearm Training Act. The municipal authorities may require that all auxiliary police officers be residents of the municipality served by them. Before the appointment of an auxiliary police officer, the person's fingerprints shall be taken, and no person shall be appointed as an auxiliary police officer if that person has been convicted of a felony or other crime involving moral turpitude.

Flame away if you wish but passing a law/resolution or whatever that contains faulty assumptions that discredit our ultimate goal {an Illinois RTC law} is not in our best interestes.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here.

[raiven]

well thats awsome i live in winnbago county and i have a florida permit anyway hmmmm!! that must mean i could carry leagaly in this county .

[burningspear]

raiven, on Sep 30 2008, 06:32 PM, said:

well thats awsome i live in winnbago county and i have a florida permit anyway hmmmm!! that must mean i could carry leagaly in this county .

My opinion is that a county concealed carry ordinance would violate Illinois State law.

[raiven]

burningspear, on Sep 30 2008, 07:23 PM, said:

raiven, on Sep 30 2008, 06:32 PM, said:

well thats awsome i live in winnbago county and i have a florida permit anyway hmmmm!! that must mean i could carry leagaly in this county .

My opinion is that a county concealed carry ordinance would violate Illinois State law.

well the county well have to clarify on this county ccw law against state so we don't get arrested. if we do we can activate the due procces law angainst the county.

[bob]

Well, they are not suggesting making them auxiliary police but auxiliary deputies, which is covered in a different section, but says about the same thing.

[quote](55 ILCS 5/3‑6013) (from Ch. 34, par. 3‑6013)

Such auxiliary deputies shall not carry firearms, except with the permission of the sheriff, and only while in uniform and in the performance of their assigned duties.[/quote]

Personally, I think citing the home rule power granted the county under the state constitution is a better approach.

[quote]SECTION 6. POWERS OF HOME RULE UNITS
(a)  A County which has a chief executive officer elected
by the electors of the county and any municipality which has
a population of more than 25,000 are home rule units. Other
municipalities may elect by referendum to become home rule
units. Except as limited by this Section, a home rule unit
may exercise any power and perform any function pertaining to
its government and affairs including, but not limited to, the
power to regulate for the protection of the public health,
safety, morals and welfare; to license; to tax; and to incur
debt.
(g)  The General Assembly by a law approved by the vote
of three-fifths of the members elected to each house may deny
or limit the power to tax and any other power or function of
a home rule unit not exercised or performed by the State
other than a power or function specified in subsection (l) of
this section.
    (h)  The General Assembly may provide specifically by law
for the exclusive exercise by the State of any power or
function of a home rule unit other than a taxing power or a
power or function specified in subsection (l) of this
Section.
    (m) Powers and functions of home rule units shall be
construed liberally.[/quote]
Take a close look at (g) and (h), and then (m).

[quote name='Lou' post='116745' date='Sep 30 2008, 05:53 PM'][quote]65 ILCS 5/3.1 30 20) (from Ch. 24, par. 3.1 30 20)
  
Sec. 3.1 30 20. Auxiliary police officers.
  
(a) Auxiliary police officers shall not be members of the regular police department of the municipality. Auxiliary police officers shall not supplement members of the regular police department of any municipality in the performance of their assigned and normal duties, except as otherwise provided in this Code. Auxiliary police officers shall only be assigned to perform the following duties in a municipality: (i) to aid or direct traffic within the municipality, (ii) to aid in control of natural or man made disasters, and (iii) to aid in case of civil disorder as directed by the chief of police. When it is impractical for members of the regular police department to perform those normal and regular police duties, however, the chief of police of the regular police department may assign auxiliary police officers to perform those normal and regular police duties. Identification symbols worn by auxiliary police officers shall be different and distinct from those used by members of the regular police department. Auxiliary police officers shall at all times during the performance of their duties be subject to the direction and control of the chief of police of the municipality. Auxiliary police officers shall not carry firearms, except with the permission of the chief of police and while in uniform and in the performance of their duties. Auxiliary police officers, when on duty, shall also be conservators of the peace and shall have the powers specified in Section 3.1 15 25.
  
( Auxiliary police officers, before entering upon any of their duties, shall receive a course of training in the use of weapons and other police procedures appropriate for the exercise of the powers conferred upon them under this Code. The training and course of study shall be determined and provided by the corporate authorities of each municipality employing auxiliary police officers. Before being permitted to carry a firearm, however, an auxiliary police officer must have the same course of training as required of peace officers under Section 2 of the Peace Officer Firearm Training Act. The municipal authorities may require that all auxiliary police officers be residents of the municipality served by them. Before the appointment of an auxiliary police officer, the person's fingerprints shall be taken, and no person shall be appointed as an auxiliary police officer if that person has been convicted of a felony or other crime involving moral turpitude.
    © The Line of Duty Compensation Act shall be applicable to auxiliary police officers upon their death in the line of duty described in this Code.
(Source: P.A. 94 984, eff. 6 30 06.)[/quote]


I think the Auxiliary statute needs to be looked at with a critical eye.   Note the Identification symbols worn by auxiliary police officers requirement.  

A few years ago they added:  Before being permitted to carry a firearm, however, an auxiliary police officer must have the same course of training as required of peace officers under Section 2 of the Peace Officer Firearm Training Act. The municipal authorities may require that all auxiliary police officers be residents of the municipality served by them. Before the appointment of an auxiliary police officer, the person's fingerprints shall be taken, and no person shall be appointed as an auxiliary police officer if that person has been convicted of a felony or other crime involving moral turpitude.

Flame away if you wish but passing a law/resolution or whatever that contains faulty assumptions that discredit our ultimate goal {an Illinois RTC law} is not in our best interestes.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here.
[/quote]

[Kaeghl]

abolt243, on Sep 30 2008, 03:43 PM, said:

Kaeghl, on Sep 30 2008, 02:01 PM, said:

abolt243, on Sep 30 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

I agree with this point.  There needs to be a standardized sign that is to be posted at the entrance(s) to the premises.  Premises would not include parking lots, garages or grounds.  You should be able to drive into the lot, secure your firearm in your vehicle and enter the premises if you choose to.  The sign posted needs to be substantial, say a white sign, 11"X14" with red lettering not less than 1" tall.  The wording shall be "Concealed firearms are prohibited" or some such wordage.  If the sign is not per the law, it is not valid.   I don't see the penalty for carrying into posted areas, but it should be "asked to leave the premises.  If the person doesn't leave, the police are called, the person is cited for a misdemeanor trespassing, not to exceed a $100 fine."  or some such thing.


JMHO
AB

That sounds like a good idea, but just for chits and grins, (and to provide a source of income for the county), why not make it mandatory that the signs must be larger, say about 24"x36", permanently affixed to the building at about 40" from the floor to the bottom of the sign (easy reading eye height), and only available from the county. Commercially produced and non-Winn. Co. issued signs are illegal and have no legal standing.

For a nominal fee. Renewable yearly. It wouldn't be that hard to stamp a registration number code on the signs.

And just to make it perfectly legal in all respects, these signs must be affixed to the building at ALL possible entrances. That way, if a customer were to enter a business at the loading dock, vehicle maintainence area or side entrance, the LTC holder would know the area is a noncarry area. IF caught on premises with firearm, and didn't leave nicely, THEN it's a slam-dunk for misdemeanor trespassing.

Just a thought put up for discussion or tromping on. Enjoy

Kaeghl,

I like that.  If you make the sign big enough, and obtrusive enough, and attach a fee, and make it a little bit of a PITA to do, maybe several folks would just say to heck with it.  

Good idea.  Needs to be incorporated into any state-wide LTC laws that get introduced.
AB

Aaaannnnd, just for more chits and grins, how about this?

The 'nominal fee' for the signs would be pegged at about $1,050/year for each sign. 4 entrances to the business, then it's 4 signs at $1,050 EACH. The businesses could apply for a lower rate, say about $950/year/sign, if they provide proof of, and advertise their possession of an liability insurance policy of $1,000,000.00 per possible occupant to pay for damages that occur to anyone in the business that are harmed in any way by criminal action.

And make the sign dirt-ugly. Big enough to be noticable and block out a lot of display window beside the door.

IF the business building, say a restaurant,  could theoretically hold 6 employees and maybe 40 patrons, then the business would be required to pay for and keep in force an insurance policy worth (40+6x1,000,000) $46,000,000.00.

Let's see now....the Cherry Vale Mall here in Winn Co has dozens of stores, hundreds of employees and the main and outlying buildings can easily hold upwards of a couple thousand customers, especially at holiday shopping times. Wouldn't the insurance companies LOVE to be able to write that policy, if the mall could afford it.

Or the mall could just say "Legal LTC holders are always welcome!!" and save the $$$$ and be lots safer, too.

Then again, concerning malls, strip malls and plazas, wouldn't it be more fair to allow the individual stores to decide if they want to pay for and post the CAPZ (Criminal Action Protection Zone) signs? That is, not allow the mall or plaza owners to just arbitrairily(sp?) make the decision to ban LTC. IF the Lane Bryant in the mall wants to have a repeat of Tinley Park, (and lose business) then they can post the CAPZ sign, but the Eddie Bauer store next door can opt out of posting the sign and be safer....Yeah, that's fair, wouldn't you say?

I'm chuckling now, I think I just coined the name for the LTC ban sign. Texas has the 30.06 sign, ILL has the CAPZ....

Enjoy the above for further consideration/discussion/tromping on.