80 replies to this topic

[TTIN]

Slappy, on Jul 13 2008, 01:42 PM, said:

Board9, on Jul 13 2008, 01:31 PM, said:

thetimeisnow, on Jul 13 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

Well let's think outside the box for a minute.The media is screwing up the meaning of the 2A,but can't we use this to our advantage?Let's just assume that most people are already thinking or will think thanks to the bias media that the 2A DOES mean RTC.If I am right here,then most people know about the Heller ruling,and MOST law-abiding people will assume that whatever SCOTUS says should be the law of the land.

I'm thinking that all the bias media could actually HELP us if they preach along these same lines.Thoughts?

Finally, a creative idea instead of arm chair quarter backing. Let's go after the media for the negative , not at us who are doing something positive. I wont be discouraged but some might.

Well then maybe the referendum question should be something like "Should Winnebago County uphold the US Constitution and Supreme Court ruling that the right to bear arms is guaranteed for the individual and force Illinois to recognize what 48 states do already"

I see ballet questions in Cook County all the damn time that say things like "For the safety of family and children, should be we ban .50 caliber assault weapons?"




Why not use it to our advantage for once?

I like that!  

[Ashdump]

How about this, "should Illinois citizens be taxed to excercise rights recognized by 48 other states?" That way they will think that they are avoiding some new tax, and we get CC without having to pay a fee for it!

[w00dc4ip]

A couple of thoughts...
First:
Findlaw.org defines (Libel) Defamation as:  The communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressively stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image.

For the press, I believe the legal standard is "knowingly" making a false statement.  In other words if they make a statement that they know to be false, or should have known to be false had they done any factual research, they've committed defamation.  

All of the below are false factual statements in the linked article.
"There are two efforts to allow you to carry a gun."
"Concealed carry legislation has been around since the 1990s."
"Yet Wisconsin has the lowest crime rate in the Midwest."

Perhaps a warning should go to the RRStar that their press credentials can be revoked if they knowingly continue to print incorrect "factual" information.

Second:
I think the ballott idea is a mistake, it's just another way to promote tyranny of the majority.  If it has to happen, lets just work the problem.  Having lived in Cook County my entire life and seeing how they word their "public referendum" ballot questions regarding firearms, I'd carefully word the ballot question in Winnebago so that it is factual and direct.  Something to this effect:
"Do you, as a Winnebago County resident, believe private citizens throughout Illinois should enjoy the same right to self defense as the citizens of 48 other states, by requiring that the State of Illinois recognize the constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms and allowing individual citizens that have passed a criminal background check and completed the required training to carry a firearm for self defense?"
Anything in that question seem misleading?

Third:
Just a note about the training required for a Winebago CC permit I saw previously because I don't know if this has been addressed yet.  I think originally it said 40 hours of training would be required.  Do you realize that 40 hours is more than the required firearm training for a state licensed, armed security guard in Illinois?  In Illinois, the required training for a private armed security guard is 20 hours for the basic security rules and procedures, and 20 hours for firearm training, but the firearms training is required by law to include arrest, search and seizure, and liability issues that wouldn't apply to a private citizen defending him or herself or their family.  What wil the 40 hours of training be required to include?  The force continuum, liability, live fire drill, safe handling, loading, unloading, cleaning, ...???

Just my $.02
w00dc4ip

[cberan]

w00dc4ip, on Jul 13 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

A couple of thoughts...
First:
Findlaw.org defines (Libel) Defamation as:  The communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressively stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image.

For the press, I believe the legal standard is "knowingly" making a false statement.  In other words if they make a statement that they know to be false, or should have known to be false had they done any factual research, they've committed defamation.  

All of the below are false factual statements in the linked article.
"There are two efforts to allow you to carry a gun."
"Concealed carry legislation has been around since the 1990s."
"Yet Wisconsin has the lowest crime rate in the Midwest."

Perhaps a warning should go to the RRStar that their press credentials can be revoked if they knowingly continue to print incorrect "factual" information.

I think the above should be posted as a comment under that article.  Maybe they will realize what they are doing is wrong and has conseqences.

[Buzzard]

Comment left on the RRStar editorial page:

I would like to point out to readers that above editorial incorrectly describes the Pro Second Amendment resolution as a concealed carry resolution. Actually, The Pro2A resolution was penned to send a message to Illinois legislaters that their constituants, the citizens of Illinois, have had enough of the anti-gun legislation so prevalent in Illinois. It also clearly points out that elected officials, both state and county, upon taking office, are required by state law to swear an Oath or Affirmation of Office to support the U.S. Constitution and the Illinois Constitution. Therefore, our officials swear an oath to support the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and Article I, Section 22 of the Illinois Constitution which states:

"Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The Rockford Register Star, by incorrectly describing the Pro2A resolution as a concealed carry referendum, not only confuses the issue, it serves to impede bringing concealed carry to Winnebago county and Illinois. It also undermines the efforts many individuals have made to advance the Pro2A resolution. I have personally invested considerable time and money into the passage of the Pro2A resolution in my area counties, and it aggravates me to have the Rockford Register Star misrepresent it's meaning to argue against concealed carry.

[ccw40cal]

I'm keeping an eye on this and am very excited for you all. I grew up & graduated high school in Oregon, IL and still have friends & family there. I'm now in Louisville, KY where I enjoy the right to carry concealed, (much to the chagrin of the left leaning media here). I admit I'm confused as to how a county can pass such a law without the state passing it. But allow me to suggest one thing to consider in drafting your bill.
1. After KY passed our ccw law, businesses and shops that didn't like the idea posted signs stating that concealed carry is not allowed in those shops. I can see that happening, in particular, at Cherrivale Mall and other shopping venues. KY law allows for businesses, churches, etc. to ban carry on their premises if they wish, BUT IT MUST BE POSTED AS SUCH.
2. In KY such posting does not have the weight of law. It is simply posting the intent of the proprietor. So, if a ccw license holder carries in such a place, he cannot be arrested for violating the ccw law, BUT if he is discovered he must be asked to leave. If the ccw holder refuses to comply with that, he can be arrested for criminal trespass.
That being said, in Tennesee such postings DO have the weight of law so that if a business expresses that it doesn't allow ccw, then you are in violation of the law if you do.
I said all this to make this point, carefully craft the wording of your bill. You wouldn't want to do all this work only to have the new law effectively nullified by businesses, churches, parks etc. posting No Guns signs. In that case it would be worth less than the ink it's printed with.
Keep pushing. I'm with you all and I sincerely hope that my home state finally wakes up and joins the rest of the country!
I'll look forward to the day when I can come home to visit and carry as well, "Because the right to self defense doesn't end at your front door".
May God bless your effort and hard work!

[Ol'Coach]

Biggest job re: the referendum, will be education.

These figures are 3 yrs old, but according to them, 10.8% of Winnebago citizens hold valid FOID cards.  

Probably 90% of the 89% that don't have a FOID card, don't know what the heck it is.

You will have a tough job educating them about the right to self defense with a firearm being carried in public on one's person.

Of that 10.8%, how many are gonna, or rather, are getting out there and bustin' their butts to get this done?  A couple of you have worked your tails off and I greatly respect your efforts, but it's gonna take more than a couple!

The statement has been made that Winnebago County is different than other counties regarding this issue.  If you mean the County Board makeup is different, that is obviously true; however, I believe the citizenship of Winnebago County is probably no different than any other, and that's who you gotta convince...not the County Board.  That's already been done.  

I hope you succeed!

Bad news for us if you don't!

[Chris]

I wonder if we should start standing on street corners in busy areas with signs?

[Kenny]

Chris I could use some of those posters about 3' X 6' & that would be a great Idea at State & Perryville State & Alpine & Riverside & N. Second between 4-6 when everyone is headed home. That would be a great Idea. The NRA hasn't offered any help yet which disapoints me extremely. I am not sure if I will be paying next years membership. I will start a new thread in the back room on this subject.

[Kenny]

Chris I could use some of those posters about 3' X 6' & that would be a great Idea at State & Perryville State & Alpine & Riverside & N. Second between 4-6 when everyone is headed home. That would be a great Idea. The NRA hasn't offered any help yet which disapoints me extremely. I am not sure if I will be paying next years membership. I will start a new thread in the back room on this subject.

[Chris]

polhms1, on Jul 26 2008, 03:37 PM, said:

Chris I could use some of those posters about 3' X 6' & that would be a great Idea at State & Perryville State & Alpine & Riverside & N. Second between 4-6 when everyone is headed home. That would be a great Idea. The NRA hasn't offered any help yet which disapoints me extremely. I am not sure if I will be paying next years membership. I will start a new thread in the back room on this subject.

We will have to figure something out, I ordered 17 more signs yesterday.

[ishmo]

Just a random thought but maybe a couple of Pro 2A rallies in the county to try and educate the voters might help.  A rally wouldn't have to be on the SAFR scale and I'm sure the idea would get a some support here as well as from the ISRA.

[Chris]

ishmo, on Jul 26 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

Just a random thought but maybe a couple of Pro 2A rallies in the county to try and educate the voters might help.  A rally wouldn't have to be on the SAFR scale and I'm sure the idea would get a some support here as well as from the ISRA.

That might be a good idea and we should do it in different areas of Winnebago

[RacerDave6]

Big Chris, on Jul 26 2008, 04:13 PM, said:

ishmo, on Jul 26 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

Just a random thought but maybe a couple of Pro 2A rallies in the county to try and educate the voters might help.  A rally wouldn't have to be on the SAFR scale and I'm sure the idea would get a some support here as well as from the ISRA.

That might be a good idea and we should do it in different areas of Winnebago

Talk to the groups that you have a good chance with. VFW and American Legion posts are usually filled with people that believe. Get them on board and they will tell people...etc.

[Chris]

RacerDave6, on Jul 26 2008, 04:45 PM, said:

Big Chris, on Jul 26 2008, 04:13 PM, said:

ishmo, on Jul 26 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

Just a random thought but maybe a couple of Pro 2A rallies in the county to try and educate the voters might help.  A rally wouldn't have to be on the SAFR scale and I'm sure the idea would get a some support here as well as from the ISRA.

That might be a good idea and we should do it in different areas of Winnebago

Talk to the groups that you have a good chance with. VFW and American Legion posts are usually filled with people that believe. Get them on board and they will tell people...etc.

Well I do have a spare data projector that we could do presentations with.

[Buzzard]

I did some research into the Missouri concealed carry referendum (as I find abolt243 did also) and after learning that it was called "Proposition B" in 1999, I discovered Wikipedia has a page about it aptly named.....

Quote

1999 Proposition B in Missouri.

Proposition B in Missouri was a failed 1999 ballot measure that would have required local police authorities to issue concealed weapons permits to eligible citizens. It was contentious and failed narrowly, leading the legislature to eventually approve similar legislation in 2003.

Supporters

Support for concealed carry laws in Missouri grew gradually throughout the 1990s. In 1991, a group to promote such laws called "the conference" was formed and that nickname was used until the Missouri Legislative Issues Council (MOLIC) was formed in 1995 for official recognition. Support for these laws increased in part as a response to the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act and other efforts make legal gun ownership more difficult.

After author/columnist John Ross made his attempts to convince Missouri legislators, other supporters also emerged. The NRA formed Missourians Against Crime(MAC) in 1998 as their spokesman into Missouri. This created an issue with the MOLIC membership. Negative campaigns seldom succeed in Missouri. The MOLIC organization was transformed into Missourians for Personal Safety(MPS) for the 1998 Proposition B campaign with Steve McGhee as the President. These combined efforts brought notoriety to Greg Jeffery, attorney/author Kevin Jamison, and Tim Oliver, to the forefront of their local/regional news media. As the Missouri Sport Shooting Association (MSSA), joined (unofficially) in support, they all proceeded with their regional campaigning attempts. Eventually, more and more individuals heard of these volunteers/members and took up the task to support the proposition with smaller meetings and neighborhood 'grass roots' action groups.

Police Officers generally supported the measure: "In a recent poll, more than eighty-five percent of our 1352 members favored Right-to-Carry.", Letter to St. Louis Police Chief Ron Henderson, from Sgt. John J. Johnson, President St. Louis Police Officers Association, 1/23/99."[1]

The Gateway Civil Liberties Alliance (GCLA) arose after the failure to pass the proposition in 1999; forming itself from MOLIC, MPS, and with WMSA giving support, to become the leadership and legislative clearing house for the 2003 success in passing a shall-issue law. Frequent trips to Jefferson City by Greg Jeffery (GCLA cofounder) earned him the nickname ‘braintrust’ to a newly created law that was adopted by Missouri in 2003.[2]


Opponents

Handgun Control, Inc., saw this as their test case before the elections in 2000 to exercise their political influence[3] and lobbied hard to defeat the referendum.[4] Political notables included the Clinton/Gore Administration[5] with Attorney General Janet Reno playing a secondary role to Hillary Clinton's activism, Governor Mel Carnahan and his daughter Robin Carnahan, the 1994 appointed[6] Secretary of State, Rebecca Cook,[7] and State Auditor, Claire McCaskill.

Robin Carnahan chaired the Safe Schools and Workplaces Committee (SSWC) and orchestrated television ads against the proposition. Also, on the weekend prior to voting day, that organization coordinated the taped phone message from Hillary Clinton to automatically dial 75,000 homes statewide with the message, "just too dangerous for Missouri families."[8]


Ballot language

The General Assembly approved the following ballot language:

"Shall state or local law enforcement agencies be authorized to issue permits to law-abiding citizens at least twenty-one years of age to carry concealed firearms outside their home for personal protection after having passed a state and federal criminal background check and having completed a firearms safety training course approved by the Missouri Department of Public Safety? "

After a lawsuit filed by the opponents of the measure, the language was changed. The final text read:

"Shall sheriffs, or in the case of St. Louis County, the chief of police, be required to issue permits to carry concealed firearms to citizens who apply if various statutory requirements are satisfied?" Because of the discretion given to local law enforcement to verify the accuracy of applications, the costs are uncertain. Application fees are estimated to cover most costs for the first three years. Subsequently, local governments, as a whole, may incur costs from $500,000 to $1,000,000 annually, not covered by fees."

Missouri Sport Shooting Association President Kevin Jamison described it as, "The opposition conducted a poll of the ballot language which determined that 60% of the state would vote in favor of License to Carry. Outraged that the people might "speak wrong", the Governor's lawyer filed a suit with the Missouri Supreme Court to change the ballot language. The defendants in the suit were Attorney General Jay Nixon and State Auditor Claire McCaskill."[9]


Campaign controversies

The use of official government resources by opponents of the measure was controversial.

"Missouri's two US Attorneys are using the Justice Department's name and facilities to lobby against the state's concealed weapons ballot issue. Using official department letterhead, the attorneys, Edward Dowd and Stephen Hill, urged sheriffs and police chiefs across the state to rally resistance against Proposition B, which is on the ballot this April. Dowd's office is operating an 800 number which people can call to obtain anti-prop B campaigning materials. Calls to the 800 number, 1-800-214-2690, are answered with "US Attorneys Office." "[10]

Some advertisements used in the campaign were deceptive, particularly an opposition ad[11] that implied Missourians would be allowed to carry Uzis[12] that continued into 2000.[13]


Results

1999 voting results.Proposition B gained 634,361 votes in favor (48.3%) and 678,256 votes against (51.7%), thus being defeated by a margin of 3.3%.[14]

The majority of voters in rural Missouri voted in favor of Proposition B. However, urban voters, praticularly in St. Louis and Kansas City, tipped the balance against Proposition B. 74.1% of the voters in the city of St. Louis, 69.5% in St. Louis County, and 71.6% in Kansas City opposed Proposition B.[14]

In 2003, the Missouri General Assembly passed new laws to enable shall-issue permits.[2]

Now, I think most will agree Missouri is a much more gun friendly state than Illinois, but this proposition still failed due to what has been described as voter fraud in St. Louis and other political pitfalls. I fear the same would / will certainly happen here in Illinois.

[junglebob]

I wonder if it would have passed without that ballot change saying it could cost local governments $500,000 to $1,000,000 a year?   Where did they pull that number out of the air?  It is probably saving local governments as there is less crime and the police are aren't called as often.  It looks like it was a good scare tactic to get voters who may have been on the fence and concerned about their taxes being raised to vote against it.

I find it interesting that so many police officers were in favor of carry, when it passed, as I recall the police cheif had them handing out "NO GUNS" signs to business owners and the St. Louis County Sheriff dragged his feet on issuing permits.

Were those automated calls against the referendum by the same Hillary Clinton that was running for president and said she supported the second ammendment?

[TTIN]

Wellllll......I wonder how much that automatic phone dialer would cost with our message on it?

[Chris]

thetimeisnow, on Aug 6 2008, 09:41 AM, said:

Wellllll......I wonder how much that automatic phone dialer would cost with our message on it?

We want people to vote for us, not against.

[Mr_G]

I was looking at the agenda for the Kendall County Board's COW meeting tomorrow and was suprised to see that they will be discussing a "Concealed Carry Advisory Resolution" tomorrow.  I put a call in to the County Administrators office and was told that they will be discussing it at the request of Winnebago County officials.  It sure would be nice to see this put to a vote in Kendall.

[Chris]

Mr_G, on Aug 13 2008, 02:07 PM, said:

I was looking at the agenda for the Kendall County Board's COW meeting tomorrow and was suprised to see that they will be discussing a "Concealed Carry Advisory Resolution" tomorrow.  I put a call in to the County Administrators office and was told that they will be discussing it at the request of Winnebago County officials.  It sure would be nice to see this put to a vote in Kendall.

I wish I could go tomorrow, but I'm pretty scheduled up already and I have to go to a Cougars game with work.

We need to find the person who is bringing this up.