80 replies to this topic

[Blaster]

Link to Article

Winnebago County Board members voted 21-5 tonight to put the concealed carry legislation before Winnebago County voters in an advisory referendum in November.

Board member Pearl Hawks was one of the five who opposed the resolution.

“I’m totally against concealed carry because we already have the right to bear arms, so we don’t need to have concealed carry,” she said.

Peter MacKay changed his no to vote to a yes vote. One county board member is absent tonight, and one seat is vacant.

[45superman]

Blaster, on Jul 10 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

“I’m totally against concealed carry because we already have the right to bear arms, so we don’t need to have concealed carry,” she said.

There's a lot of competition for the Stupidest Thing I've Ever Read Award, but Pearl has a good chance of winning.

[Slappy]

So much for her possibly being on our side...

[Traken]

rofl... If we already had the right to bear arms, why can't we bear them concealed or open? It must be fun to be ignorant.

[abolt243]

45superman, on Jul 10 2008, 08:43 PM, said:

Blaster, on Jul 10 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

“I’m totally against concealed carry because we already have the right to bear arms, so we don’t need to have concealed carry,” she said.

There's a lot of competition for the Stupidest Thing I've Ever Read Award, but Pearl has a good chance of winning.

So.........everybody in Winne county can open carry?????

That statement just shows the total ignorance of the general public concerning concealed vs. open carry and the whole subject of firearms and their legal use in Illinois.  Poor Pearl doesn't have a clue.

The biggest shame is, she actually has a vote.

My prediction???  The referendum will fail 3-1.  Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I feel that's what will happen.  The general public does not understand the concept of concealed carry and it sounds scary!!  Soccer Moms and Dads don't want "people walking around carrying guns".  FOID card holders make up only 10% of the county population, so you have a stacked deck from the git-go.  The antis will spread their propaganda from the beginning and most will believe it.  

Sorry, but concealed carry on the ballot is a bad idea.  

AB

[cberan]

Wow, where in the world did this come from?  Did anyone know it was going to be voted on tonight?  Now what are they going to talk about next tuesday night?

[cberan]

abolt243, on Jul 10 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

45superman, on Jul 10 2008, 08:43 PM, said:

Blaster, on Jul 10 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

“I’m totally against concealed carry because we already have the right to bear arms, so we don’t need to have concealed carry,” she said.

There's a lot of competition for the Stupidest Thing I've Ever Read Award, but Pearl has a good chance of winning.

So.........everybody in Winne county can open carry?????

That statement just shows the total ignorance of the general public concerning concealed vs. open carry and the whole subject of firearms and their legal use in Illinois.  Poor Pearl doesn't have a clue.

The biggest shame is, she actually has a vote.

My prediction???  The referendum will fail 3-1.  Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I feel that's what will happen.  The general public does not understand the concept of concealed carry and it sounds scary!!  Soccer Moms and Dads don't want "people walking around carrying guns".  FOID card holders make up only 10% of the county population, so you have a stacked deck from the git-go.  The antis will spread their propaganda from the beginning and most will believe it.  

Sorry, but concealed carry on the ballot is a bad idea.  

AB

I thought the board had the power to do this on their own.  Thats what I thought we have been working on.  Now we leave it to the sheep to be voted on.  I am with Abolt, I think this is a bad idea.

[45superman]

abolt243, on Jul 10 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

My prediction???  The referendum will fail 3-1.  Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I feel that's what will happen.  The general public does not understand the concept of concealed carry and it sounds scary!!  Soccer Moms and Dads don't want "people walking around carrying guns".  FOID card holders make up only 10% of the county population, so you have a stacked deck from the git-go.  The antis will spread their propaganda from the beginning and most will believe it.  

Sorry, but concealed carry on the ballot is a bad idea.  

AB

I suspect you're right (well, I have no idea about the ratio, but I don't think it will favor liberty).  One of the earlier attempts to get concealed carry in Missouri involved a statewide referendum (which the people behind the concealed carry effort didn't want at all).  It lost, just as an effort to end segregation in the South by referendum in the early '60's would have lost.  The rights of a minority (and people who believe in armed self-defense are in the minority--even in Missouri) aren't served by the Tyranny of the Majority.

If anyone's interested, I can dig up what John Ross wrote about the Missouri referendum.

[abolt243]

45superman, on Jul 10 2008, 09:32 PM, said:

I suspect you're right (well, I have no idea about the ratio, but I don't think it will favor liberty).  One of the earlier attempts to get concealed carry in Missouri involved a statewide referendum (which the people behind the concealed carry effort didn't want at all).  It lost, just as an effort to end segregation in the South by referendum in the early '60's would have lost.  The rights of a minority (and people who believe in armed self-defense are in the minority--even in Missouri) aren't served by the Tyranny of the Majority.

If anyone's interested, I can dig up what John Ross wrote about the Missouri referendum.

If you don't mind, post a link or something 45.  We just had a conversation about this at the Macon Co State's attorney's office today.  I'd like to see Ross's comments.

I also posted the question over on MOCarry just to see what they thougth of it.

Thanks,
Tim

[45superman]

abolt243, on Jul 10 2008, 09:47 PM, said:

If you don't mind, post a link or something 45.  We just had a conversation about this at the Macon Co State's attorney's office today.  I'd like to see Ross's comments.

I also posted the question over on MOCarry just to see what they thougth of it.

Thanks,
Tim

Here's the link.

Here's much of what I referred to.

Quote

In 1994, a carry bill was introduced by a state Senator that none of us in the grassroots movement trusted any farther than we could spit a mouthful of fishhooks.  He had NRA's endorsement, as he was a life member.  Sure enough, when we got down to the wire, he added a statewide referendum to the measure, which would have put it to a public vote.  You don't put civil rights measures to popular vote.  If America had done that in 1964, blacks would still be eating out in the parking lot by the back door to the restaurant's kitchen.  This Senator told us it was the only way to get the bill passed.  We told the Minority Leader, a strong supporter of our efforts, to kill the bill. The sponsor pretended to be surprised and outraged, but we'd done exactly what he'd known we would.  That was when I sought out John Schneider, a State Rep who had always opposed us vehemently and passionately, but never tried to secretly deny us our chance to make our case.  I told him "I'd rather have you opposing us than [the Senator who screwed us] on our side."  Schneider smiled and said it was obvious I was learning about politics.

That's actually the first in a series.
Part II
Part III
Part IV

I have a lot of admiration for Mr. Ross.

[ilphil]

Just looks like the board is looking for a way to sink this without having to take the heat for it themselves.
After it fails they can all look disappointed and talk about how "the people have spoken".  

[Slappy]

ilphil, on Jul 10 2008, 10:01 PM, said:

Just looks like the board is looking for a way to sink this without having to take the heat for it themselves.
After it fails they can all look disappointed and talk about how "the people have spoken".  

im sure there are some fair weather fans on the board but many of the winnebago board I have spoken to seem to understand the importance of what they are doing and really believe as we do... I do think they will be as disappointed as we will be...

[JBomb]

I concur with what everyone is saying...putting CCW on the ballot in Nov. is probably not a good idea.  I think their idea is to have all of the other 100 counties in Illinois add CCW to their ballots.  I'm sure we will lose most of the vote in the Chicago area, but hopefully we can rally support from the more rural communities.

With that said, I have talked to a member of the board, he feels the CCW County ordinance will pass before the November election.  After attending the meetings, I can say we have an outstanding group of individuals who are not only on our side, but actually believe CCW a great thing.  All we can do is cross our fingers and hope for the best, after all... we do have the Supreme Court on our side.

Let's continue to rally...we need to send out letters with positive CCW views and facts to the NO voters.

Kind Regards,


R-9 AIELLO, MARY ANN Signed on as sponsor
2010 521 Renrose Avenue
Loves Park, IL 61111
(H) 877-6833

D-3 AURAND, DOUGLAS R. Signed on as sponsor
2010 P.O. Box 16026
Loves Park, IL 61132-6026
( 633-9382
(Voice Mail) 319-4243

D-12 DUCKETT, GEORGE ANNE ???????????? Make calls
2010 429 Orchard Park 61101-6401
(H) 963-4720

R-10 EKBERG, JOHN Signed on as sponsor
2010 1804 Colorado Ave 61108
(H) 395-1955
( 398-4150, ext. 222

D-11 ELYEA, KAREN YES she is with us
2008 1302 Broadway 61104
(H) 316-0258

R-4 FIDUCCIA, DAVE YES he is with us
2010 1055 Castlehill Dr 61107
(H) 332-3416

R-14 GAMBINO, FRANK M. ???????????? Make calls
2010 5691 Rainsford Way 61107
(H) 282-1957
( 637-0113

D-7 GORAL, ANGIE AGAINST CC Make calls Lets change her mind
2010 1108 N. Rockton Ave 61103
(H) 964-0686

D-5 GORSKI, PAUL YES he is with us
2010 4583 Scenic Dr 61109
(H) 874-2916

R-4 HARMON, JOHN H. Signed on as sponsor
2008 806 Phelps Ave. 61108
(H) 397-5166

D-13 HASTINGS, BOB He is now with us thanks to the public forum
2010 1728 Constitution Place 61103
(H) 633-4254

D-6 HAWKS, PEARL AGAINST CC Make calls Lets change her mind
2010 713 Lexington Ave 61102
(H) 963-2670

D-11 HOFFMAN, KAREN AGAINST CC Make calls Lets change her mind
2010 3323 Carolina Ave 61108
(H) 399-5026

D-8 JOHNSON, PHILLIP ???????????? Make calls
2008 4665 Terrang Trl
Machesney Park, IL 61115
(H) 633-7312

R-10 KINNISON, BOB Signed on as sponsor
2008 1620 S Trainer Rd 61108
(H) 395-1654

R-3 LOGAN, KYLE Signed on as sponsor
2008 7069 Mullinshire Way
Machesney Park, IL 61115
© 979-6673

R-5 MACKAY, PETER Signed on as sponsor
2008 7030 Horizon Drive 61109
(H) 962-7031
( 962-7313

R-1 OLSON, RANDAL Signed on as sponsor
2010 6423 Thedorff Rd
Pecatonica, IL 61063
(H) 239-2716
( 262-1662

R-1 OWENS, TOM Signed on as sponsor
2008 3811 Westlake Village Drive
Winnebago, IL 61088
(H) 335-7591

D-8 PARIS, MELVIN ???????????? Make calls
2010 8220 Scott Lane 61115
(H) 654-1124

R-13 POLLACK, RICK Yes he is with us
2008 112 Lawn Place 61103
(H) 963-1047

D-6 REDD, DOROTHY She is now with us thanks to the public forum
2008 431 Homestead Ln 61102
(H) 964-8920
( 966-3251

R-14 SWEENEY, JOHN F. Signed on as sponsor
2008 3811 Burrmont Rd 61107
© 262-5769

R-7 VECCHIO, KELLY Signed on as sponsor
2008 321 West State St, Suite 1204 61101
( 962-4019

R- 2 WEBSTER, JIM Signed on as sponsor
2008 16205 Boswell Rd
Rockton, IL 61072
(H) 629-2014

R-9 WESCOTT, FRED Signed on as sponsor
2008 4102 Martina Dr 61114
(815) 708-6006

D-12 WILSON, L.C. ???????????? Make calls
2008 2615 Arthur Ave
Rockford, IL 61101
(H) 962-6108
( 633-7460 ex 515

R-2 YESKE, DAVE Probably YES make calls
2010 11554 Cedar Brook Rd
Roscoe, IL 61073
(hm) 623-8167

[SAK]

Now I REALLY hope we get open carry as well, since Pearl has affirmed that we have this right!!!

[Slappy]

Did anyone talk to members on our side about the issues with this? or did we overlook this?

[cberan]

Slappy, on Jul 10 2008, 10:39 PM, said:

Did anyone talk to members on our side about the issues with this? or did we overlook this?

Went over my head.  

[JBomb]

I hope this sounds OK...I posted it on RRStar.

I would like to extend my gratitude to the 21 members of the County Board who support CCW in the county. It doesn't surprise me, that there are those in the community who are totally against concealed carry. However, I would like to urge the citizen's of Winnebago County to get the facts on CCW before jumping to conclusions. There is a very good source of facts at GUN FACTS...just google it, and no they weren't put together by some 'gun nut'. Most of the infomation has been compiled from sources such as the FBI, CDC, and various other private studies. There are 48 states that reconize the RIGHT to self-defense...and two that do not. I keep hearing that if Winnebago County gets concealed carry 'there will be shoot-outs in streets'. Well, I hate to burst anyone's bubble....but that's the same thing people said in Florida before Concealed Carry passed. Guess what....no 'shootouts in streets' have occured by law abiding citizens with CCW permits, and just for the uninformed individuals out there...that legislation passed in 1987, yes over 20 years ago. So, chances are if you have been to Florida in the last 20 years, you might have been standing next to someone who could have had a gun...This whole topic shouldn't be about guns but, rather the RIGHT of an individual to protect his/her family. No responsible individual would ever want to shoot another human being, but giving the circumstances... I would rather carry a gun and not need it, than need it and not have it. Kind Regards.

Hopefully, I haven't set the CCW movement back a couple of years...

[Mr. Runyon]

If it is going to be on the referendum we are all going to have to work our tails off.
We are going to have to put fliers on every house and car in the state to get the word out.

[papa]

I was hopeing the board would take care of this and not put it on a ballot. To many people know nothing about the background of CCW. Seems like every gun owner I talk with in my area is indecisive about ccw. They either say that they don't really have a need to carry a gun , or they say that they can see how there could be shootouts because of people fighting over trivial things.   Sure I have straightened each of these people out , but what about all the other people out there ???   Sometimes I wonder how people find there way home at night!!!  :Angry!:  

[sticks]

Putting this to a vote by the registered voters is a mistake.

It is and always has been a mistake to ask the general public to vote upon something of which they have limited knowledge. Just look at the politicians that get elected over & over, regardless of how much they screw up. The public (as a whole) often votes for a name they know, not on a candidate's record or platform. This will most likely go the same way; they will cast their vote based upon what they have seen reported by the liberal media and seen in movies; not based upon the facts.

In my opinion, this particular subject should be voted upon by those we elect to represent us. Leaving it up to us to make sure our representatives know the facts before they vote; which is easier to do than attempting to make sure registered voters as a whole, know and understand the facts.

I could be mistaken, but I doubt that states which allow concealed carry, put it before the general public to vote upon.

[Kenny]

First of all there are 3 different things going on with CC in Winnebago County, all 3 are seperate & not tied to one another in any way except for they all have to do with CC. I see how people can get confused, hell the media screwes it up all the time. First: There is the resolution to pass concealed carry in winnebago county which is why I go to every SUB-Committee meeting on THAT issue. Second: There is a resolution to send down state to urge the state to pass HB1304 and get CC statewide. Third: There was a vote to put a ?? on the ballot this November. Each county gets 3 ?? on the November ballot and Winnebago dropped another ? to add this one "Should the State allow Concealed Carry permits to be issued like 48 other states"  or somthing like that. They are hoping all the other counties pick it up & run it too on their ballots. So we will still need people at the Tuesday meeting and this is still moving. I think they want to moveon the first one the actual Winnebago County CC because other counties have contacted them & want them to hurry up so they can work on theirs. I hope I cleared everything up for everyone & if you still have any ? post them up & I will see if I can help.

[Gooch]

sticks, on Jul 11 2008, 03:50 AM, said:

Putting this to a vote by the registered voters is a mistake.

I totally agree....... we are so screwed!

I initially thought this was a good idea, let the public speak! I now stand corrected. We'll have every cell phone toting, mini van driving, Rosie O'Donnel wannbe soccer mom at the polls in November to squash this thing like a bug.

What a depressing turn of events!

Arrrrrrrrrrg!!!!!!

[45superman]

Ah--thanks for the clarification, Polhms--I feel much better about things now.

[TTIN]

polhms1, on Jul 11 2008, 05:05 AM, said:

First of all there are 3 different things going on with CC in Winnebago County, all 3 are seperate & not tied to one another in any way except for they all have to do with CC. I see how people can get confused, hell the media screwes it up all the time. First: There is the resolution to pass concealed carry in winnebago county which is why I go to every SUB-Committee meeting on THAT issue. Second: There is a resolution to send down state to urge the state to pass HB1304 and get CC statewide. Third: There was a vote to put a ?? on the ballot this November. Each county gets 3 ?? on the November ballot and Winnebago dropped another ? to add this one "Should the State allow Concealed Carry permits to be issued like 48 other states"  or somthing like that. They are hoping all the other counties pick it up & run it too on their ballots. So we will still need people at the Tuesday meeting and this is still moving. I think they want to moveon the first one the actual Winnebago County CC because other counties have contacted them & want them to hurry up so they can work on theirs. I hope I cleared everything up for everyone & if you still have any ? post them up & I will see if I can help.

Kenny please make this very clear for the not too sharp people on here (namely me).Are you saying that Winnebago county has already passed a CC resolution and that this resolution is independant of a Nov. referendum?

[Board9]

My friends, please take a deep breath and listen to Polhms1. He has it right. As a supporter of CCW in Winnebago County, I will push to bring this to the floor in the next couple months or so. We have NOT abandoned the resolution we have been pushing for. There are separate issues here and we will not let your hard work be for nothing. We have come a long way in a short time and our rights have been ignored even longer. Again, please trust those of us who have made it clear what our priority is and it is to vote on the CCW for Winnebago County Resolution and see it pass by a large number. The referendum is just an advisory question on the ballot for the entire county. We are an island surrounded by states that respect the rights of individuals such as you and I. Please do not worry, this resolution will be brought to the floor soon. I hope to see another public forum in the next 60 days or so and when that happens, we need a packed house...2 or 3 times more then last time. It will be up to the public to fill every seat in the house.

[abolt243]

Gents,

You all are on the ground there and know the local situation.  I understand that this is an advisory referendum for the county.   I would just encourage all of you to read the links that .45Superman posted re: John Ross's comments on the struggle in MO.  Here's the pertinent quote that I see:

"In 1994, a carry bill was introduced by a state Senator that none of us in the grassroots movement trusted any farther than we could spit a mouthful of fishhooks. He had NRA's endorsement, as he was a life member. Sure enough, when we got down to the wire, he added a statewide referendum to the measure, which would have put it to a public vote. You don't put civil rights measures to popular vote. If America had done that in 1964, blacks would still be eating out in the parking lot by the back door to the restaurant's kitchen. This Senator told us it was the only way to get the bill passed. We told the Minority Leader, a strong supporter of our efforts, to kill the bill. The sponsor pretended to be surprised and outraged, but we'd done exactly what he'd known we would. That was when I sought out John Schneider, a State Rep who had always opposed us vehemently and passionately, but never tried to secretly deny us our chance to make our case. I told him "I'd rather have you opposing us than [the Senator who screwed us] on our side." Schneider smiled and said it was obvious I was learning about politics."

Again, you all there know the situation better than some guy 200 miles south of you (me), but notice the dates in John Ross's account above.  This took place in 1994.  MO passed their CC bill in 2003, nine years later.  

Just be careful what you wish for.

Oh, and I stick by my prediction of the vote on the referendum.   Please, prove me wrong!!!!!

Good Luck to all and thanks for your hard work to gain back all our rights!!!

AB

[whyzdom]

I agree with canvassing that area now with bodies, pamphlets, facts... and some emotional plugs as well.

[Blacksmith58]

I'm glad to see you're up on this Kenny and thanks for keeping us straight on this issue.

My Computer, my opinion here:

Just as the media and radio talk shows misrepresented the SCOTUS DC VS Heller Case, The Media were sounding like that DC case ment everyboy would be carrying guns in the street and OK Corral senario would be happening all over the US. We all know that case basically said the DC Gun Ban was unconstatutional and that 2A is an individual right! Things will move forward from that point on.

I believe the same thing is happening here. EDUCATION is the answer! CCW does not automatically grant "Concealed Carry" to everyone. Certain criteria must to obtain License/permits:, Age requirement, FOID requirement, No Mental Defect, Training Requirements,  License/permit Fees and a Wallet style CCW Licens/permit to those that meet the criterial. The folks that pass muster on all these issue first would then be authorised for CCW.

These are going to be some pretty high HOOPs to jump through, but I believe as loyal, leagal and responsable gun owners that we are  willing to jump through those hoops for the ability to CCW leagally. The public needs to know about this criteria and the public need to know that without meeting all of these requirements, you would not be authorised for CCW. That any one who is Carrying Concealed without going through the "Process" is ILLEAGLE and subjuct to arrest for breaking the law!

I have not seen anywhere where this "Process" to get a license/Permit are described for public knowledge. I say again, EDUCATION, TRUTHFUL Education is the answer! Because the Anti's are gonna throw enough crap out there to really confuse the issue!

Again, My Computer - my opinion!  

[Board9]

Blacksmith58, on Jul 11 2008, 07:43 AM, said:

I'm glad to see you're up on this Kenny and thanks for keeping us straight on this issue.

My Computer, my opinion here:

Just as the media and radio talk shows misrepresented the SCOTUS DC VS Heller Case, The Media were sounding like that DC case ment everyboy would be carrying guns in the street and OK Corral senario would be happening all over the US. We all know that case basically said the DC Gun Ban was unconstatutional and that 2A is an individual right! Things will move forward from that point on.

I believe the same thing is happening here. EDUCATION is the answer! CCW does not automatically grant "Concealed Carry" to everyone. Certain criteria must to obtain License/permits:, Age requirement, FOID requirement, No Mental Defect, Training Requirements,  License/permit Fees and a Wallet style CCW Licens/permit to those that meet the criterial. The folks that pass muster on all these issue first would then be authorised for CCW.

These are going to be some pretty high HOOPs to jump through, but I believe as loyal, leagal and responsable gun owners that we are  willing to jump through those hoops for the ability to CCW leagally. The public needs to know about this criteria and the public need to know that without meeting all of these requirements, you would not be authorised for CCW. That any one who is Carrying Concealed without going through the "Process" is ILLEAGLE and subjuct to arrest for breaking the law!

I have not seen anywhere where this "Process" to get a license/Permit are described for public knowledge. I say again, EDUCATION, TRUTHFUL Education is the answer! Because the Anti's are gonna throw enough crap out there to really confuse the issue!

Again, My Computer - my opinion!  

I do hope everyone will take note of what Kenny had to say and also understand we need less emotion and lots more PROMOTION to see that the referendum passes in November. We need to raise money for yard signs, pamphlets and media blitz. Nothing should stand in the way of passage!!!!

[Traken]

I just want to reiterate what Kenny said again, as well. The vote on the ballot isn't asking the citizens to pass CCW. That will be decided on by the board. The vote is merely to hopefully show the state that the county wants CC for the entire state.

If I'm mistaken, someone please correct me, but that was the impression I've had from talking to board members and whatnot.